Nelsen Out, Defoe Possibly to Follow

[Pookie]

I think many people need to take a step back and calm down.

Is there anyone that truly believes we are worse off with Vanney at the helm for the duration of the season as opposed to Nelsen?

Bez didn't give Vanney an interim tag because it would undermine him at a critical point of the season, if not the history of our franchise. The players need to buy in to Vanney's approach, and an interim tag wouldn't have helped at this point. It would have only made things worse. I don't think it was realistic to expect a coach with a significant pedigree to be available at this point in time. If Vanney falters down the stretch, we all know that TFC will be looking for a suitable replacement in the off season, so the interim tag is inconsequential.

As for Defoe, I would rather sell him in the off season, regardless of his injury status or his desire to return to England. If we sell him now, we won't be able to replace him because the transfer window is closed, and we need to make the fucking playoffs. Even if he is back for the final 4-5 games, it could make all the difference in the world with respect to our playoff aspirations.

The bottom line is that our squad is intact for the balance of the season. Nelsen is gone, and many of us felt that the team was underachieving under his tutelage. We are still in a playoff spot with 10 games left, and if the worst should come to pass, we will be no worse off in the off season with respect to hiring a new coach or selling Defoe.

In the past, we have been accustomed to evaluating decisions based solely on the long term ramifications because the season was always a write off at that point. This year, it's a different scenario.

I agree with everything you've said about Vanney and the prospects over the next 10 games.

I respectfully disagree with respect to the Defoe fiasco.

Folks always complained that Defoe never had an offseason. We'll he's got one now. Just so happens to be called our "MLS Playoff Push"

The team would be foolish to the point that MLS should think about revoking their franchise rights if they put the asset at risk with the "largest transfer in the history of MLS" on the table.

Defoe himself, do you think he'd risk losing out on another transfer window for the sake of playing a game in -2C conditions? He's here. It serves MLS' interests in that they don't necessarily look stupid… though TFC has done a good job of trying… and TFC can keep his name on the locker and season ticket campaign. In the end, the deal goes through. I'd be shocked if he actually plays down the stretch. It is now in no one's interests to see him in a TFC kit beyond January. Public auctions do that.

The best way to handle this from a PR perspective is for the rehab to be longer than anyone thought. For Defoe to tweet out… from the comfort of England… that he is pulling for the boys to make the playoffs and maybe attend the odd game here and there. For him to rehab, stay healthy and get ink to paper as quickly into January as possible.

[Phil]

Totally agree. Give your new coach a chance. The alternative was far worse.


Revs season tix holder here. Watched your last game and wanted to be ecstatic for our guys, but it didn't feel like a real win. It is easy to look great when the other team doesn't show up. The only possible explanation for a team of your talent looking like that was that they were actively pushing their coach out the door. They saw the writing on the wall and were slamming the door behind him.


Take some comfort up there. Hindsight is always 20/20. Jay Heaps had NO experience coaching when he became the Revs head coach. He was a terrific player who had moved after a long MLS career and a USMNT appearance or two to WALL STREET. I bet he didn't have his coaching license either! And he has absolutely rocked since he arrived, in every way. So you took a chance on Nelson. So what. He might have been the next Heaps. He wasn't. Your team stopped playing for him. Next.


Give Vanney a chance. You were NOT going to the playoffs with Nelson, and you may very well get there now. Go to the games, cheer on your players AND your new coach, and good luck. Meanwhile, I'm headed to Gilette tomorrow to give Jermaine the welcome he deserves when he takes the field. We just didn't have enough fans up Toronto to do a good job

Thanks for taking the time to post that, its very much appreciated.

[Richard]

Whether Defoe is really injured or not I don't know, it shouldn't matter, wanting to transfer when your team is in a playoff battle and need of support is showing poor character. I have no respect for a player who wants to bail when the team needs you the most, scummy attitude.

[Canary10]

I agree with everything you've said about Vanney and the prospects over the next 10 games.

I respectfully disagree with respect to the Defoe fiasco.

Folks always complained that Defoe never had an offseason. We'll he's got one now. Just so happens to be called our "MLS Playoff Push"

The team would be foolish to the point that MLS should think about revoking their franchise rights if they put the asset at risk with the "largest transfer in the history of MLS" on the table.

Defoe himself, do you think he'd risk losing out on another transfer window for the sake of playing a game in -2C conditions? He's here. It serves MLS' interests in that they don't necessarily look stupid… though TFC has done a good job of trying… and TFC can keep his name on the locker and season ticket campaign. In the end, the deal goes through. I'd be shocked if he actually plays down the stretch. It is now in no one's interests to see him in a TFC kit beyond January. Public auctions do that.

The best way to handle this from a PR perspective is for the rehab to be longer than anyone thought. For Defoe to tweet out… from the comfort of England… that he is pulling for the boys to make the playoffs and maybe attend the odd game here and there. For him to rehab, stay healthy and get ink to paper as quickly into January as possible.

Players ask for a transfer all the time. Sometimes they get it, sometimes not. It's not a big deal. Bale wanted out of Spurs the year before. Didn't get it. Went on to have his best season ever. At this point, we need Defoe's goals if we want a chance of making the playoffs. The best footballing decision right now is to get him out there as soon as he's fit. We need to make the playoffs this year. He's a big part.

[Pookie]

The only explanation for the circus on the weekend is that the league stepped in post press conference and stopped the Defoe sale.

I bet Bez got told by Bogers to sell Defoe if possible, which he dutifully and aggressively began to do, but I bet he didn't ask Garber/Abbott what they thought (or didn't think he needed to)...

The speed with which events played out, and the fact it was a holiday weekend, didn't help.

The league would have a big marketing problem if brand name DPs see that they can come for a run out in North America but then bail at the height of the playoff race.

It seems weird that Bez wouldn't check with the league on this before doing that press conference, but it's the only thing I can think of, maybe he didn't think he needed to somehow. It is also possible he did check but the league changed its mind last minute (this seems less likely but who knows)

I think Bez is a good guy, he is just a kid. We need to cut him some slack. I don't blame him for hiring Vanney either. I blame the people who are letting a greenhorn, who may never have hired even a scout before, do it.

The real blame, for the Leiweke hiring and the vacuum his crazy departure has created, lies not with Bez but elsewhere.

Defoe's continued silence this morning speaks volumes.

That's very plausible.

I'm not sure anyone expected Bez to be as honest as he was. A lot of things could have happened behind the scenes which didn't necessarily back all sides into their corners.

Another theory is that TL offered advice with regards to what he perceived would be a very negative PR spin on the team if Defoe left now. A number of outlets seem to report this as a good thing for TFC and had Defoe gone, it would have been a death spiral for the club. Perhaps the advice was hold on to him for now, circle the troops and come up with a plan B.

In the end, it's a bloody mess. Everyone's intentions are now known. All is done except for the ink. I can't see anyone believing that Defoe is going to play his ass off to TFC… in fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of a scenario where it benefits him to actually play. The deal is basically done. The only thing that he can gain by playing is perhaps a few more dollars if he scores more but then again, isn't 11 enough to show he's still got something? It was enough to get at least 3 teams chasing him. And if that's all he can gain, he can certainly lose it all with a massive injury.

Groins don't like cold weather. Hamstrings don't like cold weather. Unless I'm mistaken, Oct/Nov around here are fairly cold.

[Pookie]

Players ask for a transfer all the time. Sometimes they get it, sometimes not. It's not a big deal. Bale wanted out of Spurs the year before. Didn't get it. Went on to have his best season ever. At this point, we need Defoe's goals if we want a chance of making the playoffs. The best footballing decision right now is to get him out there as soon as he's fit. We need to make the playoffs this year. He's a big part.

Sure they ask for transfers but there is a difference between a big spending club shopping players they can replace and TFC doing it when he was the franchise and face of all the renewed optimism. To be offered up in a public auction like that is very damaging for all involved…especially when the sale never happened.

Bez claims to have offers on 5 of his players… he never named them did he? Because it is disruptive. I think he got a little too open during his presser and would love to have the chance to put that genie back in the bottle. Mistake. It happens. But now we have a mess. I doubt he will ever make that mistake again.

As for needing Defoe. I sort of agree but then again disagree too. I'd say that based on the fact that the player is over a month removed from match fitness? With groin and hamstring problems in cold weather?

You are also making a big assumption here in that he himself wants to play. Bez has already set the table with an out. "We'll see how it goes over the next few weeks and then decide if he needs surgery." What is Defoe's incentive to play?

[Joe Kool]

Reading the Philly supporter reaction they mostly seem to think TFC is in shambles and easy picking for the next two games. Hopefully that overconfidence translates to the Union team. Would love to see a great reaction by our team. I don't think TFC are in the shambles that the media is making it out to be.

[Canary10]

Sure they ask for transfers but there is a difference between a big spending club shopping players they can replace and TFC doing it when he was the franchise and face of all the renewed optimism. To be offered up in a public auction like that is very damaging for all involved…especially when the sale never happened.

Bez claims to have offers on 5 of his players… he never named them did he? Because it is disruptive. I think he got a little too open during his presser and would love to have the chance to put that genie back in the bottle. Mistake. It happens. But now we have a mess. I doubt he will ever make that mistake again.

As for needing Defoe. I sort of agree but then again disagree too. I'd say that based on the fact that the player is over a month removed from match fitness? With groin and hamstring problems in cold weather?

You are also making a big assumption here in that he himself wants to play. Bez has already set the table with an out. "We'll see how it goes over the next few weeks and then decide if he needs surgery." What is Defoe's incentive to play?

The whole thing was badly handled, absolutely no question. Does he have an incentive to play? I think so. He's a pro. He loves scoring goals. He doesn't do things half assed. Get him out on the pitch and his competitive drive will takeover. October temperatures will be better for him - heat plays a big role in muscle problems, more so than, like 10-15 degree weather or whatever our October average is. I don't think it does anything for him to be sitting out. If the injury is bad enough though, I agree, better not to tempt fate and have him ruin himself.

[Initial B]

Thanks for the words, EDS.

I guess we can all hope that Vanney will turn out like Heaps. Heck, I'd take him if he turns out Like Robinson with the Whitecaps.

The thing is, the last 8 years of following TFC have left the supporters with collective PTSD - we just automatically assume the worst because we have never, ever, seen a season that hasn't flamed out is some oft-spectacular fashion or another.

But if we're already looking at coaches to replace Vanney, then I'd suggest seeing if we could get Marc Dos Santos from the Ottawa Fury to implement his system in Toronto, which seems to alternate between a 4-3-3 and a 4-1-3-2. Sure the team has a lower skill level, but the way they play is actually fun to watch.

[ManUtd4ever]

I agree with everything you've said about Vanney and the prospects over the next 10 games.

I respectfully disagree with respect to the Defoe fiasco.

Folks always complained that Defoe never had an offseason. We'll he's got one now. Just so happens to be called our "MLS Playoff Push"

The team would be foolish to the point that MLS should think about revoking their franchise rights if they put the asset at risk with the "largest transfer in the history of MLS" on the table.

Defoe himself, do you think he'd risk losing out on another transfer window for the sake of playing a game in -2C conditions? He's here. It serves MLS' interests in that they don't necessarily look stupid… though TFC has done a good job of trying… and TFC can keep his name on the locker and season ticket campaign. In the end, the deal goes through. I'd be shocked if he actually plays down the stretch. It is now in no one's interests to see him in a TFC kit beyond January. Public auctions do that.

The best way to handle this from a PR perspective is for the rehab to be longer than anyone thought. For Defoe to tweet out… from the comfort of England… that he is pulling for the boys to make the playoffs and maybe attend the odd game here and there. For him to rehab, stay healthy and get ink to paper as quickly into January as possible.

I don't disagree with your take on the Defoe situation, with the exception that I think he will return to the lineup within a few weeks. It will be in his best interest to come back before the season is over and prove that he can still perform at a level that is expected of someone with his pedigree. EPL clubs might be weary of bidding for a striker with chronic groin issues, and if he wants to return to England, it will not benefit him to stay on the sidelines longer than is absolutely necessary to rehab his injury. Defoe is a consumate professional, and it certainly won't hurt to have a striker of his calibre showcasing his talents to potential suitors while helping our team make a push for the playoffs.

At the end of the day, TFC had nothing to gain by selling Defoe before the transfer window deadline as far as our prospects for this season are concerned, and from a monetary standpoint, I think EPL clubs will pay a comparable transfer fee in January for his services.

[Phil]

The only explanation for the circus on the weekend is that the league stepped in post press conference and stopped the Defoe sale.

I bet Bez got told by Bogers to sell Defoe if possible, which he dutifully and aggressively began to do, but I bet he didn't ask Garber/Abbott what they thought (or didn't think he needed to)...

The speed with which events played out, and the fact it was a holiday weekend, didn't help.

The league would have a big marketing problem if brand name DPs see that they can come for a run out in North America but then bail at the height of the playoff race.

It seems weird that Bez wouldn't check with the league on this before doing that press conference, but it's the only thing I can think of, maybe he didn't think he needed to somehow. It is also possible he did check but the league changed its mind last minute (this seems less likely but who knows)

I think Bez is a good guy, he is just a kid. We need to cut him some slack. I don't blame him for hiring Vanney either. I blame the people who are letting a greenhorn, who may never have hired even a scout before, do it.

The real blame, for the Leiweke hiring and the vacuum his crazy departure has created, lies not with Bez but elsewhere.

Defoe's continued silence this morning speaks volumes.

This is not the only explaination. I expect the truth to come out but not anytime soon. I probably know part of it but its not my place to talk or speculate on here about some of the dots I see forming from pre talks and post mortem realities.

[QBall]

At the end of the day, we need probably 5 wins out of 10 games to make the playoffs. We could possibly do it with 4 wins, but the odds drop a lot.

Not if those 5 or 6 losses come against division opponents. Of the last 10 remaining games 7 are against divisional opponents. Of those 7 games 6 are with divisional opponents that are still in the race and need the win in order to make the playoffs (sorry Limpact, maybe next year). We'll need more than 5 wins to make this work.

[Canary10]

Not if those 5 or 6 losses come against division opponents. Of the last 10 remaining games 7 are against divisional opponents. Of those 7 games 6 are with divisional opponents that are still in the race and need the win in order to make the playoffs (sorry Limpact, maybe next year). We'll need more than 5 wins to make this work.

Maybe, but I think 48 points will do it in this conference.

Put it this way, I don't see New York winning 6 of 9 left (that would give them 49), or Philly winning 6 and drawing 1 of 9 to get to 49. 48 will get us in, I'm pretty sure.

[QBall]

Reading the Philly supporter reaction they mostly seem to think TFC is in shambles and easy picking for the next two games. Hopefully that overconfidence translates to the Union team. Would love to see a great reaction by our team. I don't think TFC are in the shambles that the media is making it out to be.

To be fair if the situation was reversed I imagine everyone on this board would see Philly as being easy pickings. Having said that the Union's play this year has been as stable as Charlie Sheen on a Vegas weekend bender.

[EDS]

It's nice to hear an outside perspective, one that's not yet jaded by being subjected to 8 years of the gongshow that has been TFC!

Thanks!

One more quick note. In hindsight (extra 20/20 from the outside ) Nelson's post game comments were not excuses. They were a desperate attempt to save face. How mortifying to have his players abandon him like that in the face of his impending dismissal. By sounding off, he deflected their poor showing and his dismissal away from their opinion of him and onto his relationship with his GM.

[ensco]

This is not the only explaination. I expect the truth to come out but not anytime soon. I probably know part of it but its not my place to talk or speculate on here about some of the dots I see forming from pre talks and post mortem realities.

OK. Something tells me this is going to be good when it does get out.

[Pookie]

I don't disagree with your take on the Defoe situation, with the exception that I think he will return to the lineup within a few weeks. It will be in his best interest to come back before the season is over and prove that he can still perform at a level that is expected of someone with his pedigree. EPL clubs might be weary of bidding for a striker with chronic groin issues, and if he wants to return to England, it will not benefit him to stay on the sidelines longer than is absolutely necessary to rehab his injury. Defoe is a consumate professional, and it certainly won't hurt to have a striker of his calibre showcasing his talents to potential suitors while helping our team make a push for the playoffs.

At the end of the day, TFC had nothing to gain by selling Defoe before the transfer window deadline as far as our prospects for this season are concerned, and from a monetary standpoint, I think EPL clubs will pay a comparable transfer fee in January for his services.

I think it would be very professional of him to return, if healthy, to contribute to the team he chose to play with. I am agreed on that front.

On the point though about proving worth, it seems that a currently injured Defoe can garner an $11M transfer offer based on his play thus far. At least, that was the news as of yesterday.

Clubs that are bidding would require some type of medical assessment of his health. Presumably they were versed in his health status yesterday and in the days leading up to that.

If that is what he commands while injured, I doubt that QPR, LCFC or Arsenal would have any issue if TFC shut him down and he actually had an offseason. If anything, that would mitigate some of the risk and allow him proper time to rehab. If he re-injures himself to the point that his medical assessment changes, the offers for him are likely to go down considerably or dry up altogether.

If that is the premise, I fail to see where it is in anyone's interest (QPR, Defoe, TFC) for him to play a single game between now and when he steps on the pitch at Loftus Road.

[Yohan]

OK. Something tells me this is going to be good when it does get out.

this is what happens when a GM doesn't get to hire his own head coach. Nelsen saw Tim B as mere book keeper who is either an equal, or a guy who actually works for Nellie, so confident that he'd have Leiweke's backing on TFC side of the house. Tim B has his own ambitions, and he made a play when he saw the chance. I suspect there was a lot of factional power struggle in TFC FO, if you link all the little tidbits of stories coming out. I don't know if Tim B really wanted to fire Nelsen on Sun, because that's a really shitty timing with an away game on Wed, but this drama has been brewing for weeks, ever since TFC started to tank badly after WC. Interesting how it seems it was first team staff vs academy staff.

My gut feeling says Tim B's job is not safe if TFC fails to make the playoffs, and this is before Nelsen firing. New MLSE president may want to take the clean sweep broom to TFC again.

[Yohan]

Apparently TFC had Nick Theslof, a former Germany and Bayern Munich coach working for TFC academy. And this guy was not working with first team? WTF Nelsen...

[TFC07]

Apparently TFC had Nick Theslof, a former Germany and Bayern Munich coach working for TFC academy. And this guy was not working with first team? WTF Nelsen...

???????

[ManUtd4ever]

Bez is one of the brightest young minds in the league. It would be foolish to let him go after one season, regardless of the outcome. He should not be held accountable at this point if TFC misses the playoffs. Nelsen's coaching acumen is the primary reason that this squad has underachieved this season, and that was not Bez's decision.

[Phil]

OK. Something tells me this is going to be good when it does get out.

I am still putting it together and waiting on the post mortem whispers to start.

[flamehawk]

Apparently TFC had Nick Theslof, a former Germany and Bayern Munich coach working for TFC academy. And this guy was not working with first team? WTF Nelsen...

Apparently one of Klinsmann guys. wonder when he joined. surprised I never heard of him

[barticusz]

Bez is one of the brightest young minds in the league. It would be foolish to let him go after one season, regardless of the outcome. He should not be held accountable at this point if TFC misses the playoffs. Nelsen's coaching acumen is the primary reason that this squad has underachieved this season, and that was not Bez's decision.

Is this really the case though? I was a huge Bez supporter but after reading that the majority of moves which have helped TFC's depth were made by Nelson, I really do wonder. If our D wasn't ravaged by injuries where we're missing 3 key pieces does Nelson keep his job? I think so.

[Oldtimer]

Also on Hyndman: are you serious? ...... I really don't have a view on whether we should have pursued him specifically, but Hyndman lasted six years in Dallas (not easy in this league!), finished over .500 lifetime, and got his team within a whisker of the MLS Cup. I think at least 75 out of 100 neutrals would pick him over Greg Vanney to be their MLS coach, and it might be 95 out of 100. You may dislike Hyndman, fine, but dismissing Hyndman as some sort of ridiculous choice is itself ridiculous.

What has Hyndman won? Nothing, unless you count the Brimstone Cup and the Texas Derby. 35% win percentage? Mediocre at best. Plus I'm sure that most people saw the 2010 run as a lucky timing of wins rather than a consistently good team, like RSL was for many years. Obviously Dallas management saw it the same way, because they fired him. Hanging on for years without accomplishing much is more a reflection of the Club's modest goals than anything else.

If Bez fired Nellie just to bring in Hyndman, I would seriously question his judgment.

I heard an interview with Grant Wahl on the FAN 590 this morning, and he is very well connected in MLS circles. For what it's worth, he stated that Vanney is one of the most knowledgeable people in MLS, well versed with analytics, and an excellent coaching candidate with all the tools necessary to succeed at this level.

I hope he's right.

Grant Wahl really knows his stuff, I trust his judgment.

Bez knows who is out there more than some people here think. He has deep connections through the MLS FO.

[PopePouri]

Is this really the case though? I was a huge Bez supporter but after reading that the majority of moves which have helped TFC's depth were made by Nelson, I really do wonder. If our D wasn't ravaged by injuries where we're missing 3 key pieces does Nelson keep his job? I think so.

You're reading too much into that Attfield article.

[james]

Well we can all talk about why this happened and why that happened, and guessing who hired who, and who is to blame for this or that. But one thing we all know, and have known since the first season of TFC, MLSE has to be the most dysfunctional franchises (this goes for Leafs and Raptors as well) in the passed 8 years or so.

[19Barrett19]

Im just hoping that the team has the character to get off their ass and preform to a level that we expect of them this home and home with Philly is the real test if the season at hand. Fail and expect the worst, win both and all this is forgotten. I for one believe in this team this year the leaders on this team are just that leaders and we have never had that in like forever. This is the biggest in TFC history since New York few years back and the CCL game. I for one am excited.

[speckles]

Bez is one of the brightest young minds in the league. It would be foolish to let him go after one season, regardless of the outcome. He should not be held accountable at this point if TFC misses the playoffs. Nelsen's coaching acumen is the primary reason that this squad has underachieved this season, and that was not Bez's decision.

Not the whole story at all, management has meddled which has been a contribution factor to performance. Simply lacks management experience counter the brightest of minds, fine line with consulting with players vs undermining current coaches and enabling player agendas. Nelsen takes no crap from anyone as he has more employment options than most plus a very successful sport marketing company. He an't a fool. For this team yes it is best he moved at this point however don't rewrite history, he contributed a great deal to this team and player development.

[OgtheDim]

11 minutes of Bradley talk