I've HAD IT With Nelsen.....and I used to Be a Big Defender

[GTA_WOLF]

My problem with this team, as of late, is their inability to step on the throats of some of these lesser teams. Possession football is one thing, but not creating enough quality chances in the final third is putting me to sleep lately. Saturday we score early and I'm thinking, pump this shit by 4 or 5.....instead (outside of a couple of half chances) we did very little in the final 3rd. I could see that Earnshaw tying goal coming (much to the dismay of the supporters in my section) but it was going to happen.

This team finally has talent in all sections of the park, but they continue to play with a lack of confidence still, or forced to play a system that won't let them do this!!

Another thing that was driving me nuts.....why the hell is Michael Bradley playing like a 5th defender. Nothing worse than watching a midfielder drop deep, collect a ball, and then make a little 3 yard pass back.....that to me is coaching and a system that they want to instill. Stop fucking defending a 1-0 lead and go murder some of these inferior teams!!

[v00d00daddy]

I thought the same about Morgan but it was pointed out yesterday that he was injured and that was reason he wasn't on the bench.

Ahh ok then that makes sense for not being on the bench. Sucks for Ashton. One time he could have been used all season.

[v00d00daddy]

I'm going to stick my neck out on this one. I've been critical and supportive of him, depending on the circumstance.

I think Nelsen has the potential to be a really good coach.

BUT...

(And it's a big but)

...I think his tactical issue is the exact opposite of what people are complaining about. I think he overthinks and overexercises their tactical approach;he's not too conservative at all; he's too progressive.

Here's why: If you study how our shape changes during games, you'll find we're actually playing a fluid system, which he changes from a 442 into whatever he thinks best suits the next opponent.

Our opening shape is always something like this (ignore the player selec, irrelevant to the topic right now):

-------------------Bendik----------------------
Bloom-----Caldwell-----Henry----------Morrow
Oduro-------Bradley---Warner-------Osorio
------------Gilberto----Defoe----------------

BUT, in every game, in our offensive zone we've shifted out of this into something designed to provide better one-on-one matchups against opponents.

Against Seattle, it was a diamond:
---------------Bradley---------------
---Rey------------------Jackson------
---------------Osorio-------------------


Against KC, it was a three-man middle with Osorio coming inside and Warner dropping off

-----------------------Warner----------------------------
-------------Oduro--Bradley--Osorio----------------------

Against DC, it was a 4-1-1, with Gilberto dropping behind Moore; at Montreal, it was a straight 442 again.

Here's the problem: we've seen about ten different offensive permutations this season. How the heck does he expect our players to get into an understanding of each other if they have different positional responsibilities every week?

I can see this kind of approach working in the very long-term; but you'd have to hold a team together for at least two or three seasons before the changes stuck and .... (and it's a big AND) you need players smart enough to do this.

If you have Premiership- or La Liga-quality players who've been in organized systems since the age of ten, moved into pro coaches by age fifteen at the latest, you STILL would probably only get this much tactical ambition offensively from a handful of the top teams with the top players. It's... one of the reasons they're top teams with top players.

But if you look at it from the position of an ambitious young coach who has always excelled as a player, reaching the top of the game, it's easier to see why he might have convinced himself that he can use a fluid structure like this to build a Ferguson-style dynasty; to literally "outcoach" the rest of MLS.

ANd maybe he's right in the long-term. But I have to think that in the short term if we concentrated on two or three offensive sets at most, instead of adapting constantly, the results would be a lot more positive. YOu don't need ten formations in football to win. No one ever has.

I have to believe that much movement affects the defensive end, too, creating transitional holes between our lines of defense that can be exploited. It's only logical that that's going to happen when you have guys drifting in and out all the time.

Hmmm… this is interesting but it makes me wonder a couple of things.

Where and when would he have learned any of this? As a defender at Tottenham/Blackburn/QPR?

He'd never coached a day in his life and didn't play at a club that seemed to be as versatile with formations and styles. He also didn't play at a position to be a part of the every game changes that you described. In fact, the central defender is the guy who has to change the least in all of the formations you mentioned.

I'd like to think he's got that kind of versatility but I just don't buy it. Hope you're right..but even if you are…he'll never have the squad to pull that off. He needs to pick a way of playing and take in to consideration variations of that way in case of leads, chasing teams or playing teams that are way better than us. Other than that he shouldn't stray too much.

I love that we score more than ever (we sure should considering how much we've spent on scoring players) but we concede more goals than most teams in the league. When a defender (i refuse to call him a coach lol) teaches that….it's a problem.

[v00d00daddy]

A-fucking-men.

And on the point about Orr, he's never looked as comfortable since we stopped sitting so deep after the WC break. He got caught out numerous times because of his pace and his play dropped overall. People really think Orr would have been better than Jackson in that scenario against SKC? Really? or do people just like shitting on Nelsen because he's never been a coach before?

I actually had this interaction with someone from work who also has tickets. He told me he thought Nelsen was gone. That he wasn't achieving anything, He didn't know what he was doing, that the results weren't good enough. I then asked him how good he thought our squad was. he said that while we weren't in the upper echelon of teams like RSL, SKC, or seattle, we should definitely be making the playoffs comfortably. "about second or third in the conference" he said. I asked him if he knew we were third in our conference with at least a game at hand on everyone around us and an incredibly easy run-in. He said he knew and shrugged his shoulders.

Essentially, I believe lots of people here, and TFC fans everywhere who don't like Nelsen, can't tell the difference between an adequate coaching job and a bad coaching job. I agree with my friend. This team is good for 3rd in the east on talent alone right now, and Nelsen is good enough to keep us there. A bad coach would have us lower than that. A good coach would probably have us higher than that. Nelsen may very well turn into a good coach and we will most certainly have better teams in the future. I'd like to see how Nelsen would do in Vermes' or Schmidt's place.

After crossing the fucking desert that was the first 7 years of this club, I feel people focusing and getting super angry about how shit our coach is for only having us in third place is kind of childish. Why don't we have a thread about how awesome the foreseeable future is going to be and about how we're going to be hosting a playoff (fucking playoffs!!!!)game for the first time ever? But no, we won't have that. Because people watch Man City and Chelsea in the morning and then come to the stadium that night and get angry because it's not the same product.

I'm gonna take the high road and just ask you not to call people who disagree with you childish and unable to see the difference between good coaches and bad coaches.

It's just another opinion. The guy you're defending as a good coach was never, ever, ever a coach anywhere before TFC. Take that in to consideration.

And if you want to post in a positive foreseeable future thread then start one. It's simple.

[gate7]

like 'Grapes' likes to say...."show me a good goalie and ill show you a good coach"....

[TFC07]

Some people have really set a low standard for a coach.

I think some of you guys are underestimating how much an impact a coach can make. If we had better coach, we would have probably have better record, but instead we're just trying to make it to the playoffs and hoping teams bottom of standings don't start winning.

Also, blaming players who are playing out of their position is weak argument since it's coach who's putting his players in that position to begin with. If talent is an issue, then blame GM Bez who hasn't done a thing since summer window has opened. We all know this team needs better CB and natural wingers, but yet, we don't hear TFC even attempting to sign one during summer.

[OgtheDim]

.....If we had better coach, we would have probably have better record...

Based on watching how teams play in MLS, I would have to disagree.

There is a lot of regression to the mean in this league.

[Oldtimer]

Some people have really set a low standard for a coach.

I think some of you guys are underestimating how much an impact a coach can make. If we had better coach, we would have probably have better record,

You are saying that an improvement from last place to third is a "really low standard?" If you thought TFC would improve from last to MLS Cup winners, you need to get a more realistic appraisal of things.

[TFC07]

You are saying that an improvement from last place to third is a "really low standard?" If you thought TFC would improve from last to MLS Cup winners, you need to get a more realistic appraisal of things.

Well DC United are first in the east right now and I believe they finish last year. So what does say to you?

TFC spent tons of money and got some really good role players, but yet, we fail to put together a winning streak to complete against the best in the league. So what's the problem here? Is it really talent? On paper, TFC should one of top teams in the league. So what is it?

The answer: Nelsen and weak coaching staff is the problem here. Having players playing out of position consistently, inability to make subs at right time and being too stubborn to end Warner-Bradley experiment is what holding TFC back the most right now. Of course lack of signings in summer to address couple of issues (CB and natural winger) is also part of the problem as well.

[Phil]

Well DC United are first in the east right now and I believe they finish last year. So what does say to you?

TFC spent tons of money and got some really good role players, but yet, we fail to put together a winning streak to complete against the best in the league. So what's the problem here? Is it really talent? On paper, TFC should one of top teams in the league. So what is it?

The answer: Nelsen and weak coaching staff is the problem here. Having players playing out of position consistently, inability to make subs at right time and being too stubborn to end Warner-Bradley experiment is what holding TFC back the most right now. Of course lack of signings in summer to address couple of issues (CB and natural winger) is also part of the problem as well.

Portland are a good example to me that illustrate everyones point to a degree. A couple years ago they finished poorly, then last year they did rather well - especially so at home - and made a deep run into the playoffs, only to have a tough year this year (although clawing their way back into a tough confrence).

Could have fired their coach a few times pending those results. I am still in the 'stick with him' side for now. See A) if we get into playoffs, B) where we get into it - top half, bottom or wildcard & C) what kind of progression we actually make in playoffs.

[Oldtimer]

Portland are a good example to me that illustrate everyones point to a degree. A couple years ago they finished poorly, then last year they did rather well - especially so at home - and made a deep run into the playoffs, only to have a tough year this year (although clawing their way back into a tough confrence).

Could have fired their coach a few times pending those results. I am still in the 'stick with him' side for now. See A) if we get into playoffs, B) where we get into it - top half, bottom or wildcard & C) what kind of progression we actually make in playoffs.

So where I stand at this point is that Nelsen is a mediocre coach, not a great one, and he has great connections. He's no different than a lot of MLS coaches.

[PopePouri]

Well DC United are first in the east right now and I believe they finish last year. So what does say to you?

That DC threw around tons of allocation and are overspending on a lot of domestic aging MLS talent who will lose trade value by the end of season. All done so that Olsen can keep win now and not lose his job.

[Canary10]

I'm not convinced DC is for real. Sure didn't look it last night.

[ag futbol]

That DC threw around tons of allocation and are overspending on a lot of domestic aging MLS talent who will lose trade value by the end of season. All done so that Olsen can keep win now and not lose his job.

I feel like I'm pointing this out in every thread but.... They have a very good domestic core, which is the primary reason for their success and very sustainable. Nothing about their Cap situation suggests it's going to have to be blown up: they get rid of Pontius( who has been injured all year) and one other decent sized contract it's within current guidelines (which probably won't matter anyway given new CBA).

Anyway, let's not make this about DCU. Make it about TFC and if what we're doing is actually making the team better. I have my doubts about that.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Well DC United are first in the east right now and I believe they finish last year. So what does say to you?

TFC spent tons of money and got some really good role players, but yet, we fail to put together a winning streak to complete against the best in the league. So what's the problem here? Is it really talent? On paper, TFC should one of top teams in the league. So what is it?

The answer: Nelsen and weak coaching staff is the problem here. Having players playing out of position consistently, inability to make subs at right time and being too stubborn to end Warner-Bradley experiment is what holding TFC back the most right now. Of course lack of signings in summer to address couple of issues (CB and natural winger) is also part of the problem as well.

Signings of Warner and Creavaelle addressed issues. Issues of not having consistent starting DP's. That was more important than the very recent issue you refer to. Our defense wasn't strong but looked to get by before injuries happened.


And DC got away with alot of close games not taking away you need to be good to be lucky. Also the destruction of KC was a clinic on the weekend. I'm glad to hear they are showing chinks in armour as of yesterday. Those would be true colours.

[v00d00daddy]

BTW…this Molinaro article should be here as well as the daily news where it's being ignored.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/mls-m...-benito-floro/

“We’ve gotten everything from [Dwayne De Rosario],” coach Ryan Nelsen said following the Chicago game. “He’s been fantastic in the locker room. [But] I’ve got a Premier League striker [Luke Moore] on the bench and a Nigerian striker [Bright Dike] who would have been going to the World Cup.”

Read the rest of the article folks and see how DeRo feels about not being played.

Now…I'm no DeRo super fan (I was very critical of him after the post cheque signing and critical in terms of his style of play and lack of a defined position before that) but this is a bit of insight and opinion from someone first hand with Nelsen.

[PopePouri]

Poor DeRo.



Play me....Play me....Play me.....

[trane]

I still have mixed feelings about Nelsen, I have to give him credit or making us an overall better team then we have been. However, I still feel, that we could be better with the talent that we have, and I do feel that for an MLS side we have a lot of solid players. I feel that he has not been able to get the best out of the attacking players we have, and we are still making to many defensive mistake. Much better then we were, of course, but we have what it takes, in terms of talent, to be quite a bit better.

[barticusz]

Seriously? We're back to this again? If you haven't seen a completely different side from the beginning of the season to now there's no use in arguing this point. Nelson has done a good job with our team, sticking with guys if they've struggled and giving lots of playing time to our young guys which show promise.

THIS IS THE MLS. Pep, Jose, and the like will not be found here. There's a reason the average age of the managers is around 35. This is a learning league for most managers. As someone else pointed out, this is a league where the majority of teams regress to the mean.

It's not an easy league and it takes time to build chemistry and create teams like LA, SKC, RSL etc. We've had an incredible amount of injuries this year and yet we're still sitting in third place in the east at the end of August.

Keep the group together and move forward.

[BuSaPuNk]

Seriously? We're back to this again? If you haven't seen a completely different side from the beginning of the season to now there's no use in arguing this point. Nelson has done a good job with our team, sticking with guys if they've struggled and giving lots of playing time to our young guys which show promise.

THIS IS THE MLS. Pep, Jose, and the like will not be found here. There's a reason the average age of the managers is around 35. This is a learning league for most managers. As someone else pointed out, this is a league where the majority of teams regress to the mean.

It's not an easy league and it takes time to build chemistry and create teams like LA, SKC, RSL etc. We've had an incredible amount of injuries this year and yet we're still sitting in third place in the east at the end of August.

Keep the group together and move forward.

Agreed

The point that's missing in a lot of this is were still in 3rd place with the amount of injured players coming in and out the last two months were still in a great spot. Nelsen has really got the most he can out of plugging our lineup with the injuries.

Do we all wish they got some more points yes. But considering were still in a great spot. As long as we stay out of that play in game I think this season is going as good as we could have hoped with a complete roster overhaul.

[OgtheDim]

The following teams have been touted as wonderful and looking difficult to beat at some time so far this season:


SKC
Seattle
RSL
LAG
Chivas
Houston
Dallas
NER
Philly
NYRB
TFC
DCU
Colorado
Vancouver



i.e. Everybody but Montreal, the Fire, San Jose and Portland has had a 4 + game consistent run of form.


You don't get that in leagues where 2-5 teams dominate.

[ManUtd4ever]

Nelsen has definitely improved throughout the course of the season in terms of tactical flexibility and personnel management, although he has still made some questionable substitutions as of late. He still has a long way to go, but he has earned the right to lead this team for the duration of the season, and hopefully, into the playoffs.

[Ruffian]

I am not a big fan of Nelson but please do not change the coach. This is one of the best seasons we have had yet. A new coach could ruin it. Also he has not had this group together for a full season. If he is looking bad in his second season with this team then maybe it is time to discuss a new coach. People on here complain about the constant turn over in managers and at the same time always want a new manager.

[Fort York Redcoat]

The following teams have been touted as wonderful and looking difficult to beat at some time so far this season:


SKC
Seattle
RSL
LAG
Chivas
Houston
Dallas
NER
Philly
NYRB
TFC
DCU
Colorado
Vancouver



i.e. Everybody but Montreal, the Fire, San Jose and Portland has had a 4 + game consistent run of form.


You don't get that in leagues where 2-5 teams dominate.

This is a great point to add perspective. Cheers.

[barticusz]

The following teams have been touted as wonderful and looking difficult to beat at some time so far this season:


SKC
Seattle
RSL
LAG
Chivas
Houston
Dallas
NER
Philly
NYRB
TFC
DCU
Colorado
Vancouver



i.e. Everybody but Montreal, the Fire, San Jose and Portland has had a 4 + game consistent run of form.


You don't get that in leagues where 2-5 teams dominate.

Bingo. Close the thread.

[Red CB Toronto]

It just happy that the Reds have one of the premier players in the MLS with General Bradley, I still shake my head that he is suiting up for the Reds this season and for the next four seasons.

[v00d00daddy]

The following teams have been touted as wonderful and looking difficult to beat at some time so far this season:


SKC
Seattle
RSL
LAG
Chivas
Houston
Dallas
NER
Philly
NYRB
TFC
DCU
Colorado
Vancouver



i.e. Everybody but Montreal, the Fire, San Jose and Portland has had a 4 + game consistent run of form.


You don't get that in leagues where 2-5 teams dominate.

This is a great point to add perspective. Cheers.

Yeah good for perspective but don't ignore the fact that we've given up more goals than we've scored and given up more goals per game (1.56) than all teams in the east other than…..Philly, Montreal and Houston.

That's all with a defender at the helm and calling the shots.

Just some more perspective

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yeah good for perspective but don't ignore the fact that we've given up more goals than we've scored and given up more goals per game (1.56) than all teams in the east other than…..Philly, Montreal and Houston.

That's all with a defender at the helm and calling the shots.

Just some more perspective

Because this thread is all about Nelsen:

We know he has "a" say (that is, not the "final" say) on players coming and going but

What kind of Backline do you think we'd have if Nelsen, a defender, was working towards building the best backline in the league?

I'd reckon we'd have some more expensive backs on this squad. I see how porous we've become but I'd like ot compare that to previous years. I don't think we're that far off where we've come from and we're making the difference up top. It's still very risky business relying on the fact we can score 2 goals a game and I'd like to see that change but it will come slower with all the money we've tied up in the team already.

[ManUtd4ever]

It just happy that the Reds have one of the premier players in the MLS with General Bradley, I still shake my head that he is suiting up for the Reds this season and for the next four seasons.

Bradley has regressed considerably since he had surgery. I think he was dominant prior to his injury, but in all honesty, he hasn't been playing like one of the premier midfielders in MLS for quite some time.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Bradley has regressed considerably since he had surgery. I think he was dominant prior to his injury, but in all honesty, he hasn't been playing like one of the premier midfielders in MLS for quite some time.

I've noticed him more in the final third than midfield. I hope that changes.