"Puto" and "Douche Bag" - Appropriate?

[Jack]

Still my point stands based on the original post of this thread. What are "we" arguing? Take it up with the Mexicans.

I wouldn't shout "puto" b/c it doest mean to me what Mexican's use it for.

How many threads only refer back to the original post?

But yes, I agree with you that it's not something to shout at TFC games.

[ryan]

The PUTO chirp is booming as per usual today.

[PopePouri]

This thread is worse than Iran v. Nigeria.

You mean that this thread sucks ass.....hole.

[FluSH]

When a Mexican crowd shouts "PUTO" at a player, it means "FAGGOT" (in our Canadian usage of the term), regardless of what country they are in or what language the player speaks. Just in case there was any doubt in your mind about that particular point. Whether or not the player understands is a different story.

It's funny because I have never taken it as a gay slur? More like the male version of a whore, but I also left El Salvador when I was 11 an EL Salvador is not Mexico... Rarely was the word puto even used over there... Words like cerote or culero or pendejo were more widely used.

bottom line not something we will be shouting

[Dbl_D]

I thought they were saying "juicebox"

ROFL

So lets get this right - People in Canada from different backgrounds who may or may not speak Spanish or Portuguese are wondering if people that may or may not be Spanish and Portuguese language speakers in a Portuguese speaking country watching a soccer game of teams from countries that may or may not be where they speak Spanish and Portuguese should be using a word that means different things in different contexts depending on the language and country the word is being used in.


Am I right?

You did sum it up well.

How about this.... if it isn't a word you know or understand, its probably best not to use it, because it could be a slur.

For the words we do know, say them out loud, just know their meaning.

juicebox it is... we all know what that means

and if you've read this thread you can silently and mentally substituted your derogatory word for it and offend none

and still have a good time yelling something at the keeper...

[james]

meh, its all part of going to soccer games really. Most people don't mean anything by it. Soccer whether it be in Mexico, Canada, England, Argentina, Germany, exc. its often a sport where fans yell, sing, chant all sorts of swear words and insults at opposing fans and players. I feel if you complain about this chant, it makes a whole shit load more of chants and songs and random coments we have done or do questionable, then when it gets to that point you might as well go to a Leafs game where you sit down and shut up, no swearing because little kids and Moms might here it, and the worst thing you could do is say you suck or "BOOOOOO". Ya Soccer chants, they are what they are, but without the banter the atmosphere might just be like a Leafs game.

[Suds]

Can we agree it will be fine to use it in the context of taking the piss of Espindola on Saturday?

[OgtheDim]

Fire supporters chanted it last night.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Fire supporters chanted it last night.

Noticed that.


You won't catch me saying it.

[Pint]

I will chant and say almost anything at TFC games... swearing does not bother me at all but nothing racist and nothing homophobic in english or any other language will be tolerated.

[redisthenewblk]

I don't want to be "that woman", however, it think its interesting that some people on this thread are adamantly against using /racial homophobic slurs, but ok with using terms that are derogatory towards women (whether or not we are present doesn't make a difference). Men and women and people of all races, sexualities etc. love to cheer for TFC, so my vote would be to respect everyone. That being said, we don't need to be constantly walking on eggshells and I love a good yell at the keeper. Vancouver uses "You Fat Bastard", I'm cool with "Douchebag" though because it's pretty universal and could offend anyone and everyone

[jabbronies]

So as long as your comment can offend everyone then it's cool. But if it targets a specific group then it's bad.

Time to create some new slurs "Christmahannukwanzadan" style!

[redisthenewblk]

hahah exactly, lets just work on being universally offensive

[BBLaw]

I will chant and say almost anything at TFC games... swearing does not bother me at all but nothing racist and nothing homophobic in english or any other language will be tolerated.

Why? Swearing can offend someone just as much as something racist or homophobic. Just because it doesn't seem as bad in your mind doesn't mean it's not bad in other peoples minds. Personally I don't find "puto" offensive because in the context it is used in Mexico and what it means there isn't homophobic or racist or any of that other nonsense. Just because it's "translated" here to mean "faggot" doesn't mean it actually means it. The cultures and languages are completely different. In this country, the word "faggot" essentially had the same meaning as "bitch" and was almost never used in a derogatory manner towards the gay population in this country(sort of like how "nigga" is used among friends.) Then a few years ago when the gay community banded together and let the public know that they find that word incredibly offensive, even if it's not used against them, that began the momentum shift to remove it from the day to day language.

Overall, I just think you're just being incredibly oversensitive in regards to "puto" which doesn't surprise me, seeing as it seems like the vast majority of the population is oversensitive to almost everything these days. Hell, the mayor uses Jamaican patois and people call him a racist. Nigel Reed on a World Cup pregame show had a banana and he offered it to Lloyd Barker and there were some people on twitter in an uproar

The moral of the story, no matter what you say or do will offend someone somewhere and there really is nothing we can do to change that, it's just the way people are.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Why? Swearing can offend someone just as much as something racist or homophobic. Just because it doesn't seem as bad in your mind doesn't mean it's not bad in other peoples minds. Personally I don't find "puto" offensive because in the context it is used in Mexico and what it means there isn't homophobic or racist or any of that other nonsense. Just because it's "translated" here to mean "faggot" doesn't mean it actually means it. The cultures and languages are completely different. In this country, the word "faggot" essentially had the same meaning as "bitch" and was almost never used in a derogatory manner towards the gay population in this country(sort of like how "nigga" is used among friends.) Then a few years ago when the gay community banded together and let the public know that they find that word incredibly offensive, even if it's not used against them, that began the momentum shift to remove it from the day to day language.

Overall, I just think you're just being incredibly oversensitive in regards to "puto" which doesn't surprise me, seeing as it seems like the vast majority of the population is oversensitive to almost everything these days. Hell, the mayor uses Jamaican patois and people call him a racist. Nigel Reed on a World Cup pregame show had a banana and he offered it to Lloyd Barker and there were some people on twitter in an uproar

The moral of the story, no matter what you say or do will offend someone somewhere and there really is nothing we can do to change that, it's just the way people are.

Categorically, absolutely false. It's disgraceful that anyone even thinks this is the case. As one of my friends said recently

It's the last words some people hear as they are beaten to death. That's in first world countries.

The attempt to disarm these hate words falls flat. Notice how you didn't spell the "n bomb" out? We all know that would be a no-no.

Your use of the term offends me even in your "logical" justification.

This is why I won't use a word that may be a hate word to someone in the stadium.

[Abou Sky]

I don't want to be "that woman", however, it think its interesting that some people on this thread are adamantly against using /racial homophobic slurs, but ok with using terms that are derogatory towards women (whether or not we are present doesn't make a difference). Men and women and people of all races, sexualities etc. love to cheer for TFC, so my vote would be to respect everyone. That being said, we don't need to be constantly walking on eggshells and I love a good yell at the keeper. Vancouver uses "You Fat Bastard", I'm cool with "Douchebag" though because it's pretty universal and could offend anyone and everyone

I am with you on this. I have seen two children born and HATE it when people use 'pussy' as a slur, I mean I REALLY REALLY hate that word (as a slur) also 'cunt' (as a slur)

'Limp Dick' OTOH is a personal fave because damned if that isn't a great dig. 'you limp dick fuck' etc. Really fantastic.

So... how about the Fire supporters saying it yesterday?

Friend made a point that 'If you had a whole group yelling 'f@gg0t' everyone would go crazy' so why on earth is this OK?

[james]

Its all banter. People complain about saying puto, then you might as well also stop saying "Tic Tac tabernac who the F**s the impact". Stop saying "douchbag" stop saying "F**k you" stop saying "fat bastard" stop saying "C**t" stop saying "referee has no father" stop saying "pick him up and bury him" stop saying "get up you pus*y".......the list could go on, and on. You here these chants every game. I don't know, i find really its banter and doesn't quite mean what the word really means. Its part of soccer atmosphere, i would only take what is said at soccer games with a small grain of salt. Without banter the atmosphere sucks. And then to what point do you pick and choose what is ok to say and what is not? the list is endless really. Probably just save you a lot of time and brush it off and get on with supporting your team, having fun, and watching your club play, and insulting the other team

[Fort York Redcoat]

Its all banter. People complain about saying puto, then you might as well also stop saying "Tic Tac tabernac who the F**s the impact". Stop saying "douchbag" stop saying "F**k you" stop saying "fat bastard" stop saying "C**t" stop saying "referee has no father" stop saying "pick him up and bury him" stop saying "get up you pus*y".......the list could go on, and on. You here these chants every game. I don't know, i find really its banter and doesn't quite mean what the word really means. Its part of soccer atmosphere, i would only take what is said at soccer games with a small grain of salt. Without banter the atmosphere sucks. And then to what point do you pick and choose what is ok to say and what is not? the list is endless really. Probably just save you a lot of time and brush it off and get on with supporting your team, having fun, and watching your club play, and insulting the other team

The fact that people can't see the difference is why we keep talking about it.

It's not at all the same. Look at your list. It's tame in comparison to what we're talking about. That list is a bunch of body parts and no one is actually getting beaten up over it.

This is all pretty simple. It's sad to see the need for a loophole for this kind of ignorance.

Hope everyone had a great WORLDPRIDE!!

[Jack]

Personally I don't find "puto" offensive because in the context it is used in Mexico and what it means there isn't homophobic or racist or any of that other nonsense. Just because it's "translated" here to mean "faggot" doesn't mean it actually means it. The cultures and languages are completely different.

You are mistaken on this one. Puto in Mexican Spanish is used exactly the same way that "fag" or "faggot" are used in the derogatory sense in Canada. The derogatory nature of the term comes from the implication that it is somehow a bad thing to be homosexual, just like in English.

[james]

The fact that people can't see the difference is why we keep talking about it.

It's not at all the same. Look at your list. It's tame in comparison to what we're talking about. That list is a bunch of body parts and no one is actually getting beaten up over it.

This is all pretty simple. It's sad to see the need for a loophole for this kind of ignorance.

Hope everyone had a great WORLDPRIDE!!

well we had a song about liquoir whores and strippers in Montreal.....is that more on the line of what we are talking about? Anyways ya i dont want to get to deep into this conversation. I do think most of this is banter and people really don't mean it seriously.

[Fort York Redcoat]

You are mistaken on this one. Puto in Mexican Spanish is used exactly the same way that "fag" or "faggot" are used in the derogatory sense in Canada. The derogatory nature of the term comes from the implication that it is somehow a bad thing to be homosexual, just like in English.

I'm beginning to believe there's little difference between the understanding of hatespeech in either language.

To think douchebag is even in the same realm...

[Pint]

The difference between Douchebag/C*nt/Dick/Asshole etc and "Puto" or "Fa**ot" is that the first set are not directed as hate towards a group within society where as the second set is.

If i call someone a douchebag it is directed at the one person and has no effect on another set of human beings on the planet. Where as if i called someone a "Fa**ot" it is still directed at someone specific but has a broader meaning which demeans a group within society.

When i'm chirping a person/team etc it is directed at that person/team and in no way would i want it seen or mistaken being directed at another separate group within society.

[molenshtain]

It's an odd thing that the Fire were doing that chant last night. They're usually one of the most self-aware SG's in the league, thought things might have changed in recent years.

[gate7]

I don't have a problem with cursing someone out, but homophobic slurs are just not cool. I know people use them, but how is that different than racism? You are basically using a type of person as an insult.

....so i have a few friends in the gay community and you couldn't imagine the homophobic slurs that i hear them call each other when in a group ( and i mean hard core ). So I'm like "wow i never thought id hear you guys speak like that to each other" and buddy tells me while laughing "well honey he is (those things) isn't he?" ........of course at this point i'm red to the face.
I guess its kinda like a rapper using the N word.......



There are dozens of spanish speaking countries and they all value similar words differently.


I think people who use the word 'Puto' at games are just un-classy nothing more....I just came back from a few games in Brasil and remember people saying 'Pepsi' instead of 'Puto' around their kids. I guess everyone wants to join in on the fun but mean no harm.

[tfcleeds]

It's an odd thing that the Fire were doing that chant last night. They're usually one of the most self-aware SG's in the league, thought things might have changed in recent years.

I don't think that was Section 8 though. Probably just a bunch of, erm, douchebags.

[Pint]

I don't think that was Section 8 though. Probably just a bunch of, erm, douchebags.

Nah i think it was the other section on the other side of the stadium in the corner... Its always the section on the other side of the stadium causing problems

[tfcleeds]

Nah i think it was the other section on the other side of the stadium in the corner... Its always the section on the other side of the stadium causing problems

Wouldn't surprise me. I know when I've been to Chicago away games, the fans near where we were (opposite where the Chicago supporters section is) were a real piece of work. As in, being assholes.

[FluSH]

Fire supporters chanted it last night.

Fire supporters sucked ballz... Their chants were horrible, sounded horrible, and were off timing. Chanting "I just can't get enough" while TFC is taking a corner is an absolute FAIL.

Now that I think about it, they have always sucked.

[Jack]

There are dozens of spanish speaking countries and they all value similar words differently.

Indeed there are many countries where certain words have different meanings. When I worked in Mexico, I had coworkers from Spain and all over Latin America, including Chile, Argentina, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Peru, Cuba, Costa Rica, Panama, Ecuador, Puerto Rico, plus a few others I can't remember off the top of my head. Believe me, as an aficionado of the language and the regional subtleties and differences, it was quite an interesting experience. Hearing a guy from Mexico City try to carry on a conversation with a recently arrived Argentine from Buenos Aires was quite comical, as they could barely understand each other due to all the slang and different meanings of certain words.

For example "pendejo" means something akin to "idiot" or even "asshole" in Mexico, while in Chile and Argentina it is a somewhat off-colour term used as "kid" while in others it means pubic hair. Just like English, where in some countries a "fag" is a cigarette, but here it is a derogatory homophobic term when used as an insult, just like puto in Mexico. But in a few places, it's true, puto refers to a promiscuous male and doesn't usually have a homophobic implication. When translating, context and audience are very important when inferring meaning. I've done my fair share of Spanish-English translation and you can't ever ignore context. The Wikipedia entry on Spanish profanity actually has some decent examples (several of which bring back some comical memories).

I think people who use the word 'Puto' at games are just un-classy nothing more....I just came back from a few games in Brasil and remember people saying 'Pepsi' instead of 'Puto' around their kids. I guess everyone wants to join in on the fun but mean no harm.

Homophobic slurs are generally un-classy, I agree.

[Justin10000]

Whoa. I never knew what puto meant. Goes to show it's best to learn what you're saying.

never using that word again.