We're in a good place

[Fort York Redcoat]

It's a confusing process, so let me attempt to clear it up.

There WILL be a Voyageurs' Cup next year. The only difference is that unlike previous years where the winner of the V Cup qualified for that same year's CCL, going forward the winner will qualify for the following year's CCL.

So the winner of the 2015 V Cup will qualify for the 2016/17 CCL.

This leaves a one year gap where there is no tournament to decide the entrant into the 2015/16 CCL. So as a one-time fix, the top MLS team will qualify for next year's CCL.

This is the best explanation of WHAT is happening. Now, WHY is it happening??

[InDa_110]

Here's an interesting philosophical question.

If there were no playoffs in MLS, just a table Champion and the V Cup, how would you feel about the team?

See above

[Canary10]

Yes, and I came on here to also say that. NE losing 2-0 to NY in the 83rd minute, so TFC should be second in the league, and first in the East in terms of PPG, before the end of today. I know PPG is no sure bet when you have so many games in hand -- it really depends how TFC does when it's playing those extra games. However in checking the results so far, TFC has already played more of the current top teams in the league, and fewer of the bottom feeders, while missing some influential players for stretches. So I don't see a strong reason for the PPG to drop much, as they make up those games in hand. That's pretty amazing, and not what I expected.

In the end, it's only the results that matter, and they've ground out enough of those that we can have a pretty good feeling. However, if we're honest about some of those games, we've also been more lucky than in the past. TFC was totally dominated by their opponents in a few games. If they play that way for the rest of the season (in terms of low possession, but especially in terms of not creating many good scoring opportunities) then there's also a good chance that they start dropping more points. That's why I'm still only cautiously optimistic so far.

Yesterday vs. San Jose, we saw a bit of both. We saw TFC dominating for stretches, stringing some good passes together, and creating great chances. (I saw more of that in the first few games of the season.) But we also saw them drop off physically & mentally for long stretches, and really concede the field to San Jose. The Quakes got some great scoring chances as a result, which could have easily gone in -- and really weren't necessary if TFC had continued to play the way they had earlier.

Again yesterday I felt a real lull, especially in the 2nd half, where few TFC players really stepped up to take charge. Bradley can often do that when he's here. I noticed the South End go nuts, really try to lift the team again, but TFC didn't respond much. San Jose had some real dangerous stretches as a result, incl. an open header right to Bendik, and a bullet shot flashing just past the post. Then the mood on here would have been different.

I feel the team and most of the players are actually better than they've been playing in most games. That's one reason I get so frustrated, when they seem to have no real clue, and very low possession. Yesterday it was very close to 50% possession, and decent passing accuracy. If they can keep that up, and perhaps get a bit more midfield help over the summer, then there's no reason for them to play crappy or drop lots of points.

Part of that against San Jose is that they play almost the identical kind of game as TFC. They sit back, let you advance 1/3 into their half, then they hit you with an organized midfield and defence. Our possession looked better because we were playing ourselves! When they abandoned that game in the second half when they needed a goal, the roles reversed somewhat and we were the ones letting them advance. There weren't a whole lot of chances for either team as a result.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Here's an interesting philosophical question.

If there were no playoffs in MLS, just a table Champion and the V Cup, how would you feel about the team?

I would be ecstatic that finally North America had the same priorities as I do. We are imagining that, too, right? 'Cause otherwise we'd all be worried about attendance being half of what it is league-wide.


Not that I like this. I hate it but it's the way is here for now anyway.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Making the playoffs was the clear goal this year.

Your question to me is like setting a goal to finish a marathon and having someone say 'what if there are no marathons, just 100k ultras?'

Well i would have a different goal then.

What's interesting about that question?

Well, it prompted that response, for one.

[Super]

I think we look greatly improved for past years. We're competitive, tough to beat, and scoring goals. 10 points in the past 4 games - that's pretty solid. Not counting Amway of course.

[C.Ronaldo]

can I ask you pookie...when you drink a glass of milk,beer,water,is the glass always half empty

or as woody allen puts it, half full of poison

[Fort York Redcoat]

The question is whether you as a professional athlete set the goal to finish the marathon or win it. For most of us, finishing a marathon is an accomplishment. For those who do it for a living, winning is the goal.

What's interesting is that we are rating our team as being in a good place based on "playoffs" (or making the Cut). If there was a table champion, the bar would be set much higher so the question is would the team still rate as high.

If they don't fall off the map like every other TFC team in the 2nd half, it should be a positive step forward regardless of how it ends.

Practically speaking, today, is this a team that can pick apart SKC or RSL at the top of their games?

This is pretty simple stuff here, Pook. SKC and RSL are better put together and we don't look like a Shield winner yet. It's also been stated elsewhere that our record favours us.

The above quote, though, is moving the goalposts on your part to show we're not where we should be comparing pitch play to what's on paper. We're not players, we're supporters that make expectations and it seems pretty disingenuous of you unless you've changed your priorities from playoffs. I don't remember you prioritizing the CCL and Shield previously so why is it more important now? Especially since management seems to have listened to the majority on this present playoff priority?

You think we should win it all with the $$ we spent? Agreed. But how disappointed are you because we lost the cup vs holding management to underachievement? That's kind of insulting to the minority that actually care for these things over playoffs. Just sayin.

I'm on board with your disappointment but reckon it's not coming from the same place. That get's stuck in my craw. And it's uncomfortable.

[Canary10]

Well, it prompted that response, for one.

Damn you!

[C.Ronaldo]

Part of that against San Jose is that they play almost the identical kind of game as TFC. They sit back, let you advance 1/3 into their half, then they hit you with an organized midfield and defence. Our possession looked better because we were playing ourselves! When they abandoned that game in the second half when they needed a goal, the roles reversed somewhat and we were the ones letting them advance. There weren't a whole lot of chances for either team as a result.

SJ: no we play counter, you take it

TFC: no we play counter you take it


pretty much sums up the game

[brad]

SJ: no we play counter, you take it

TFC: no we play counter you take it


pretty much sums up the game

There was a funny quote from an Atletico player when they played Chelsea in the CL - they asked him what they would do when they had the ball (or something like that). He laughed and said they would give it back.

[Pookie]

This is pretty simple stuff here, Pook. SKC and RSL are better put together and we don't look like a Shield winner yet. It's also been stated elsewhere that our record favours us.

The above quote, though, is moving the goalposts on your part to show we're not where we should be comparing pitch play to what's on paper. We're not players, we're supporters that make expectations and it seems pretty disingenuous of you unless you've changed your priorities from playoffs. I don't remember you prioritizing the CCL and Shield previously so why is it more important now? Especially since management seems to have listened to the majority on this present playoff priority?

You think we should win it all with the $$ we spent? Agreed. But how disappointed are you because we lost the cup vs holding management to underachievement? That's kind of insulting to the minority that actually care for these things over playoffs. Just sayin.

I'm on board with your disappointment but reckon it's not coming from the same place. That get's stuck in my craw. And it's uncomfortable.

You should give your craw regular maintenance. Those things can get funky if you don't care for them.

Going into this season, I didn't have any personal expectations on playoffs or CCL. But I was more than happy to hold the team accountable to them as Tim was very clear what would happen. He also talked about a culture of winning.

I see taking competitions lightly as counter to creating that culture. I also don't get excited about "competing for the playoffs" as I've heard that time and time again from the Leafs. Some teams actually talk about championships, imagine that. So, I don't see competing for the playoffs as creating a culture of winning. Winning creates a culture of winning, regardless of the competition.

As I said on page 2 though, I'm coming around to the idea that playoffs should be a personal expectation not just something that I throw out there for Tim's sake. The team's key players have a short window here… relatively speaking. Adding Oduro who turns 29 this season and another indication that they need to leverage Defoe for as long as his health and/or contract last. Why not go for it?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Going into this season, I didn't have any personal expectations on playoffs or CCL. But I was more than happy to hold the team accountable to them as Tim was very clear what would happen. He also talked about a culture of winning.

I see taking competitions lightly as counter to creating that culture. I also don't get excited about "competing for the playoffs" as I've heard that time and time again from the Leafs. Some teams actually talk about championships, imagine that. So, I don't see competing for the playoffs as creating a culture of winning. Winning creates a culture of winning, regardless of the competition.

As I said on page 2 though, I'm coming around to the idea that playoffs should be a personal expectation not just something that I throw out there for Tim's sake. The team's key players have a short window here… relatively speaking. Adding Oduro who turns 29 this season and another indication that they need to leverage Defoe for as long as his health and/or contract last. Why not go for it?

So where can we see your credit for growing " a culture of winning " from actually winning? That's what happened since we lost the cup last week. Instead we're reminded of what teams we don't look like yet.

[Ultra & Proud]

I see taking competitions lightly as counter to creating that culture. I also don't get excited about "competing for the playoffs" as I've heard that time and time again from the Leafs. Some teams actually talk about championships, imagine that. So, I don't see competing for the playoffs as creating a culture of winning. Winning creates a culture of winning, regardless of the competition.

As I said on page 2 though, I'm coming around to the idea that playoffs should be a personal expectation not just something that I throw out there for Tim's sake. The team's key players have a short window here… relatively speaking. Adding Oduro who turns 29 this season and another indication that they need to leverage Defoe for as long as his health and/or contract last. Why not go for it?

Competing for the playoffs is a step towards the bigger picture. Competing for the playoffs means winning matches which leads to that often mentioned winning mentality. From there the playoffs offer a crap shoot. We could go on a Houston style roll once we get there but you don't win the MLS Cup without getting to the playoffs first. And you always mention a short window with Oduro and Defoe but don't mention that the rest of squad, the bulk core of the squad, is 26 and younger. To build a consistent winner that core needs experience and by aiming for playoffs and experiencing the playoffs is how it's done. Guys like Defoe and Caldwell are here for the now of course and also to show and/or teach our younger players what it takes to be a solid pro. It's all steps to a bigger picture. Liewke's mentioned championships already, he just isn't stupid enough to call for one this year. If you step away from your incessant negativity and the dwelling on a few of the salesman-esque pitches from Lieweke and look objectively for a change, you'd probably be able to see the bigger picture.

[pdogg]

How many of the last 10 MLS Cup championships also won the Supporters Shield? 2 - LAG in 2011, Crew in 2008
How many of the last 20 MLS Cup finalists also won the Supporters Shield? 2 - LAG in 2011, Crew in 2008
How many of the last 20 MLS Cup finalists also won the US Open Cup? 2 - Revs in 2007, Wizards in 2004

My point being is that success in the playoffs (at least getting to the finals), appears to be independent of being at the top of the table in MLS. And as many have said above, if our goal is to win championships, the first step is actually making the playoffs for once. I'd love for us to be a perennial Supporters Shield contender, but one step at a time.

1st goal - make the playoffs - a necessity
2nd goal - win at least one round in the playoffs - an expectation
3rd goal - go as deep as possible
4th goal - win the MLS Cup

Next year? Drop the lowest goal off (make the playoffs), and the next in line becomes a necessity (win at least one round). Toss Supporter shield contender onto the goal list.

[Pookie]

Competing for the playoffs is a step towards the bigger picture. Competing for the playoffs means winning matches which leads to that often mentioned winning mentality. From there the playoffs offer a crap shoot. We could go on a Houston style roll once we get there but you don't win the MLS Cup without getting to the playoffs first. And you always mention a short window with Oduro and Defoe but don't mention that the rest of squad, the bulk core of the squad, is 26 and younger. To build a consistent winner that core needs experience and by aiming for playoffs and experiencing the playoffs is how it's done. Guys like Defoe and Caldwell are here for the now of course and also to show and/or teach our younger players what it takes to be a solid pro. It's all steps to a bigger picture. Liewke's mentioned championships already, he just isn't stupid enough to call for one this year. If you step away from your incessant negativity and the dwelling on a few of the salesman-esque pitches from Lieweke and look objectively for a change, you'd probably be able to see the bigger picture.

I debated just ignoring this but the "incessant negativity" comment made me chuckle.

I am one of a handful of folks that steps up and says stop calling our young and developing players "shit" after every poor performance or mistake. I'm also pretty public in saying that a coaching change would be one of the worst things that the team could do over the long term and Nelsen should be given time. I've also highlighted that Tim B was a solid choice in my opinion and I really like the fact they have kept their draft picks thus far.

Perhaps you interpret not pulling out pom poms for Defoe as negativity?

Look, I don't like the Defoe signing and my reasons are very consistent and it has everything to do with the big picture.

He's oft injured and his injury risk increases with age. We get no budget relief for injured players and speaking of budget, my guess is that ticket prices are going to be jacked by double digits sometime between now and his retirement.

I don't think that next year's draft class will really be in a position to contribute until Defoe is in the remaining 2 years of his deal. Resigning a 34 year old under these no budget relief roster rules would be absolutely the wrong thing to do.

As for the core, most are younger though in moving Rey (23) for Oduro (29 this year), they are signaling that youth isn't untouchable. I hope to hell they don't trade any of the picks next year.

The biggest part of that core is Bradley and resigning him is a question mark. He'd be 30 at the time of the contract offer, assuming he wants to stay north of the border. I would hope that if resigning him was an issue that TFC would unload him in the final year of his deal… Defoe's last year… to recoup players and draft picks. That means you have a real short window.

Gilberto, another player I support in my supposed incessant negativity, should still be a significant part of the team if he survives the mob calling for his buyout.

Team building is big picture stuff. You want to have a core that can grow together and DPs are a significant part of that. You have to get that right. If we had a DP core that was about 23 years old in Gilberto-Laba-Urutti, I'd be incredibly optimistic about this team and it's "big picture." There you would have a team ready to go for it in 2-3 years… with the picks next year…. and could conceivably be at the top of the table for the better part of a decade.

Right now we have to gamble on Defoe's hamstrings, assume that Bradley will want to stay, and have to fight constantly to weigh the "do I make a trade to get into the playoffs and hurt our long term future" equation.

I get that a slow and steady rebuild is foreign to Toronto fans. But not seeing the big picture? Funny.

[Canary10]

How many of the last 10 MLS Cup championships also won the Supporters Shield? 2 - LAG in 2011, Crew in 2008
How many of the last 20 MLS Cup finalists also won the Supporters Shield? 2 - LAG in 2011, Crew in 2008
How many of the last 20 MLS Cup finalists also won the US Open Cup? 2 - Revs in 2007, Wizards in 2004

My point being is that success in the playoffs (at least getting to the finals), appears to be independent of being at the top of the table in MLS. And as many have said above, if our goal is to win championships, the first step is actually making the playoffs for once. I'd love for us to be a perennial Supporters Shield contender, but one step at a time.

1st goal - make the playoffs - a necessity
2nd goal - win at least one round in the playoffs - an expectation
3rd goal - go as deep as possible
4th goal - win the MLS Cup

Next year? Drop the lowest goal off (make the playoffs), and the next in line becomes a necessity (win at least one round). Toss Supporter shield contender onto the goal list.

Imagine if we made the playoffs as, like, the eighth placed team, then went on and won the whole thing? Not at all impossible given how playoffs play out.

[T-boy]

Imagine if we made the playoffs as, like, the eighth placed team, then went on and won the whole thing? Not at all impossible given how playoffs play out.

didn't the Rapids do that a few seasons ago?

[Canary10]

didn't the Rapids do that a few seasons ago?

The year it was held at BMO....foreshadowing......

[Ultra & Proud]

The biggest part of that core is Bradley and resigning him is a question mark. He'd be 30 at the time of the contract offer

Bradley is on a 6 year contract.

Also, we have a youthful core. I see the point of having vets along with youth and not full on youth. The full on youth thing is what we should have done in 2010 or so. Then a few years of poor results could have been tolerated. Unfortunately we are past that now. This is why I knew Payne would never last. The daggers come out here after one half of football most days. No way could another year of crap be tolerated. Even a crap year that showed progress. We made our bed in 7 years of crap so these types of measures were necessary (the Defoe & Bradley deals) to keep the team relevant while trying to build around a domestic core. I am not as worried about Defoe's legs as you are because although he's 31, he hadn't played a ton of minutes for Spurs in a few years. I think that's why he had hamstring troubles as well.

As for Rey, yes, we moved him for a guy 4+ years older but it was clear Rey wasn't going to fit and we got a domestic in his place. That speaks to me louder than age as domestics are what makes teams perennial winners in MLS and thusly why we've never won in MLS.

And I think you see your big picture. You hate that we signed Defoe and that we dumped Urruti and were forced to lose Laba for a year (hopefully). I don't like a lot of things that have been done and I sure don't like all our present players but I can step outside of that and can see what they are trying to do. So far it's working more than anything we've tried before so I don't see the point in a lot of the same complaints over and over especially banging the drum on Lieweke's playoff guarantee quote. It is what it is.

The ticket prices thing we'll get to when it happens. They'll go up for sure but I don't see us doing the 30% yearly increases like before.

[pdogg]

Imagine if we made the playoffs as, like, the eighth placed team, then went on and won the whole thing? Not at all impossible given how playoffs play out.

Looking at the last few finals, we can see the positions of the teams
2013 (east 2nd, west 2nd) - I think we can call that 3rd and 4th place on the table, maybe?
2012 (E5, W4) - 7/8th and 9/10th
2011 (E2, W1) - more of what you'd expect
2010 (E3, W3) - 5th and 6th place
2009 (E4, W1) - 7th/8th from the east
2008 (E1, W4) - 7th/8th from the west (the two seasons mirrored each other)
2007 (E2, W2) - 3rd/4th
2006 (E2, W2) - 3rd/4th
2005 (E1, W4) - 7/8th in made it again
2004 (E2, W1) - more of what you'd expect

In the 1st/2nd vs 7th/8th finals matchup, it's an even 2-2. Not entirely a resounding claim for the best team in MLS being the Cup champion - just the tournament champion.

[Pookie]

...

Lots of different big pictures in our houses. I can respect yours.

[ensco]

What I want to be is Seattle, Portland , RSL, possibly Vancouver ... teams that play attractive soccer and are contenders. Given where we were, it was a 2-3 year project even with Leiweke's ability to unlock $100M for the project.

I didn't think we were on track 4 weeks ago, but now I am just not sure. I mean that in a good way, I see many positives - the ability to close out games, Bez moving internationals for decent domestics, Nelsen starting to finally look like he might have a tactical clue after all...

I don't need us to make the playoffs this year, and I still don't think we will. I think we will fade in the summer, my gut says we're just not playing well enough to sustain this. It's a tough league, we were so bad last year, and objectively we are not that much better this year ex Defoe and Bradley (which will not be enough over 34 games) ...

But maybe we are on track after all. I can live with missing the playoffs if we keep improving.

[LFC8]

^Half of the teams make the playoffs. If we don't make it this year than i'd consider that a HUGE failure.

[Alonso]

Possibly a stupid question but can you trade picks or players or anything for another DP slot? If so, we would have quite the trade bait.

Not a stupid question at all because you could trade them in the past, just not anymore.

[brad]

Not a stupid question at all because you could trade them in the past, just not anymore.

I would say there is no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to the MLS rule. I'm pretty familiar with them, but still feel like I'm in a constant state of confusion most of the time.

[Alonso]

This is the best explanation of WHAT is happening. Now, WHY is it happening??

My best guess is that the powers that be wanted to move NCC from late winter/early spring to summer/fall, with the CCL starting in the subsequent MLS Summer season.

Summer/fall is when the CCL tournament is actually played so the 'gap issue' came into play creating the need for the one time qualification to the tournament from the MLS standings this year.

If this is the case, TFC or Vancouver (not giving Impact a chance at this point) could potentially be competing in CCL, MLS, and NCC all at the same time next year.

A temporary congestion so that they could move the tournament to their preferred spot in the season.

Your question still stands though.... what is better about Summer/Fall qualification vs Winter/Spring qualification ?

My only guess is that Edmonton/Montreal/Toronto/Ottawa can barely host suitable games outdoors during these times of the year (Winter/Spring) vs having the tournament in the later stages of MLS/NASL where there is better weather and potentially more hype for the tournament from the MLS and NASL faithful. Also they can now stretch the NCC tournament out over the MLS and NASL season with good weather for as long as they want. ( ie. may to november where as before they were limited to march to may)

[Pookie]

So does Defoe's rumoured loan in Jan '15 to QPR change the short term outlook?

[LFC8]

I wouldn't worry about that rumour. I'm assuming you read the one from sportsmole? They are a 'headline' site not a news site lol

[ensco]

^Half of the teams make the playoffs. If we don't make it this year than i'd consider that a HUGE failure.

Cmon. We were 20 points out of the playoffs last year!