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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    So here is a Question back t you Pookie.

    The Play-offs exist. If winning the V-cup means we lose out on the Play-offs, are further down the table and lose out on CONCACAF Champions League next year, would it still be worth it?

    If Losing out on it this year means, we get to the Play-offs, are high in the table (maybe even in the supporters shield race), play Champions League Football next year.. and have the chemistry to really give a go at the V-cup next year with a better fixture set up. was it worth it to put out the weak showing we did?
    I never think a team that charges money for people to watch it should ever put out less than its best effort. Not wanting to win games approaches Declan Hill territory in some respects. Even if you don't go that far in your own thought process, I would think that success would be good for this team and they shouldn't piss away opportunities to achieve degrees of it along the way. That's just my opinion though. Others have reasonable and opposite views based on roster management and that's fine.

    As for whether it's a bad thing, I suppose it is a question of how you would build a team.

    Finishing further down the table under a long term view isn't a bad thing. That means higher draft picks.

    But rather than fight the wind that blows out MLSE's arse, I should just admit that it clearly isn't a long term view from the top. It's short term based on what they say and who the sign. And short term they don't want to finish further down the table. They want to achieve a mid table result so losing in the CCL helps that view. I may not agree with it but that is the goal. So, I'll hoist the flag and set my expectations accordingly.

    I would say that as a group, you really shouldn't settle for making the playoffs next year. The Cup needs to be the goal and expectation given the age of the key players in this roster… and the ticket prices you'll be paying soon.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    The question is whether you as a professional athlete set the goal to finish the marathon or win it. For most of us, finishing a marathon is an accomplishment. For those who do it for a living, winning is the goal.

    Shooting a round of golf in 80's is an accomplishment. Most professional golfers, like those who will tee it up in the US Open next week don't dream of making the cut, they dream of winning it.

    What's interesting is that we are rating our team as being in a good place based on "playoffs" (or making the Cut). If there was a table champion, the bar would be set much higher so the question is would the team still rate as high.

    If they don't fall off the map like every other TFC team in the 2nd half, it should be a positive step forward regardless of how it ends.

    Practically speaking, today, is this a team that can pick apart SKC or RSL at the top of their games?
    Let's take the goal of playoffs out for a second - or at least phrase this differently.

    If they said - the goal for this year is to go from perennial bottom feeders to a mid table team this year - would that be an issue?

    Or how about - let's aim to go from being the worst team in the history of the league to being a decent side thhis year.

    Both of those are great goals to have this year on my opinion - with an eye on that being a platform to continue to build on an improve on next year. And meeting either would make us a playoff team.

    And to the latter part - no, this is not a team that could pick apart two of the best teams in the league at the top of their games. But then again - how many other teams in the league could? Not many, if any. And certainly not teams that started from a better position than we did.

    I guess it depends on your perspective. If you expected us to go from garbage to the best team in the league on one off season then I suspect you are going to be dissappinted. If you expected to see us go from garbage to a not-garbage mid table team, then perhaps you are more satisfied with progress.

    Maybe that's why TL said playoffs as the bar instead of te Supporters Shield or MLS cup.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    I never think a team that charges money for people to watch it should ever put out less than its best effort. Not wanting to win games approaches Declan Hill territory in some respects. Even if you don't go that far in your own thought process, I would think that success would be good for this team and they shouldn't piss away opportunities to achieve degrees of it along the way. That's just my opinion though. Others have reasonable and opposite views based on roster management and that's fine.
    Sorry but this quote is just ridiculous.

    There is a huge difference between throwing a game and resting players.

    For the better part of the 2000's EPL teams handed debuts to kids that beer saw another appearance in te League Cup. Teams will routinely rest starters before a Champions League match - even if that mean points dropped. While it is not an apples to apples comparison due to quality of squads - to suggest that resting ayers in the cup to prioritize the league is borderline match fixing is silly.


    The players against Montreal did what they could to win and came up short.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpy View Post
    Minor correction but we are now 3rd in ppg. If New England loses or ties New York today we will be in 2nd in ppg. I can't see anything negatives about that except maybe we should be first in ppg.
    Yes, and I came on here to also say that. NE losing 2-0 to NY in the 83rd minute, so TFC should be second in the league, and first in the East in terms of PPG, before the end of today. I know PPG is no sure bet when you have so many games in hand -- it really depends how TFC does when it's playing those extra games. However in checking the results so far, TFC has already played more of the current top teams in the league, and fewer of the bottom feeders, while missing some influential players for stretches. So I don't see a strong reason for the PPG to drop much, as they make up those games in hand. That's pretty amazing, and not what I expected.

    In the end, it's only the results that matter, and they've ground out enough of those that we can have a pretty good feeling. However, if we're honest about some of those games, we've also been more lucky than in the past. TFC was totally dominated by their opponents in a few games. If they play that way for the rest of the season (in terms of low possession, but especially in terms of not creating many good scoring opportunities) then there's also a good chance that they start dropping more points. That's why I'm still only cautiously optimistic so far.

    Yesterday vs. San Jose, we saw a bit of both. We saw TFC dominating for stretches, stringing some good passes together, and creating great chances. (I saw more of that in the first few games of the season.) But we also saw them drop off physically & mentally for long stretches, and really concede the field to San Jose. The Quakes got some great scoring chances as a result, which could have easily gone in -- and really weren't necessary if TFC had continued to play the way they had earlier.

    Again yesterday I felt a real lull, especially in the 2nd half, where few TFC players really stepped up to take charge. Bradley can often do that when he's here. I noticed the South End go nuts, really try to lift the team again, but TFC didn't respond much. San Jose had some real dangerous stretches as a result, incl. an open header right to Bendik, and a bullet shot flashing just past the post. Then the mood on here would have been different.

    I feel the team and most of the players are actually better than they've been playing in most games. That's one reason I get so frustrated, when they seem to have no real clue, and very low possession. Yesterday it was very close to 50% possession, and decent passing accuracy. If they can keep that up, and perhaps get a bit more midfield help over the summer, then there's no reason for them to play crappy or drop lots of points.

  5. #35
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    In terms of draft picks -- weren't many of those via trades etc., where the draft position won't be affected by TFC's own standing in the league?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    In terms of draft picks -- weren't many of those via trades etc., where the draft position won't be affected by TFC's own standing in the league?
    Just it's own position. Which through the years should have been stellar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    In terms of draft picks -- weren't many of those via trades etc., where the draft position won't be affected by TFC's own standing in the league?
    If the season ended now, we'd get the 3rd, 12th, 13th and 21st pick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    The question is whether you as a professional athlete set the goal to finish the marathon or win it. For most of us, finishing a marathon is an accomplishment. For those who do it for a living, winning is the goal.

    Shooting a round of golf in 80's is an accomplishment. Most professional golfers, like those who will tee it up in the US Open next week don't dream of making the cut, they dream of winning it.

    What's interesting is that we are rating our team as being in a good place based on "playoffs" (or making the Cut). If there was a table champion, the bar would be set much higher so the question is would the team still rate as high.

    If they don't fall off the map like every other TFC team in the 2nd half, it should be a positive step forward regardless of how it ends.

    Practically speaking, today, is this a team that can pick apart SKC or RSL at the top of their games?
    The goal this year is the playoffs, Pookie. It'll be a different goal next year.

    Btw our points per game is the highest in the east at the break. Even higher than the vaunted SKC. So maybe the goal was too easy this year.

    Also Mo Farah's goal wasn't to win his first marathon when he moved up from the 10,000m. And he was a double gold medalist.
    Last edited by Canary10; 06-08-2014 at 07:06 PM.

  9. #39
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    I don't think we've played very well, but we have gutted out about 5 victories, and there is only one game I would say we outplayed the opposition and lost (Colorado). That is what good teams do.

    But ask again August 1.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    I never think a team that charges money for people to watch it should ever put out less than its best effort. Not wanting to win games approaches Declan Hill territory in some respects. Even if you don't go that far in your own thought process, I would think that success would be good for this team and they shouldn't piss away opportunities to achieve degrees of it along the way. That's just my opinion though. Others have reasonable and opposite views based on roster management and that's fine.

    As for whether it's a bad thing, I suppose it is a question of how you would build a team.

    Finishing further down the table under a long term view isn't a bad thing. That means higher draft picks.

    But rather than fight the wind that blows out MLSE's arse, I should just admit that it clearly isn't a long term view from the top. It's short term based on what they say and who the sign. And short term they don't want to finish further down the table. They want to achieve a mid table result so losing in the CCL helps that view. I may not agree with it but that is the goal. So, I'll hoist the flag and set my expectations accordingly.

    I would say that as a group, you really shouldn't settle for making the playoffs next year. The Cup needs to be the goal and expectation given the age of the key players in this roster… and the ticket prices you'll be paying soon.
    It should have been this year. The fixtures should have designed with that in mind, we should be sitting at 13 or 14 games played with the V-Cup.. Won the cup.. and be playing the Champions league.

    But honestly this franchise was about to lose it's hold in Toronto, and sit in perpetual New Jersey territory and they would never get the BMO expansion for the Winter Classic. (lets face it this is a business decision)

    I don't have to agree with it.. but as I see it if we qualify for the Champions league next year, make the play-offs, and finish in the top third to top 3 of the table and go a distance in the Play-offs we have done a good job.

    If next year we can make a serious run for the Supporters Shield, Win the V-Cup, the fake cup, and make a good run at the MLS Cup and go to the Champions League Quarter Finals... I think we can all be happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PopePouri View Post
    If the season ended now, we'd get the 3rd, 12th, 13th and 21st pick.
    Possibly a stupid question but can you trade picks or players or anything for another DP slot? If so, we would have quite the trade bait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFC8 View Post
    Possibly a stupid question but can you trade picks or players or anything for another DP slot? If so, we would have quite the trade bait.
    Nope.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    It should have been this year. The fixtures should have designed with that in mind, we should be sitting at 13 or 14 games played with the V-Cup.. Won the cup.. and be playing the Champions league.

    But honestly this franchise was about to lose it's hold in Toronto, and sit in perpetual New Jersey territory and they would never get the BMO expansion for the Winter Classic. (lets face it this is a business decision)

    I don't have to agree with it.. but as I see it if we qualify for the Champions league next year, make the play-offs, and finish in the top third to top 3 of the table and go a distance in the Play-offs we have done a good job.

    If next year we can make a serious run for the Supporters Shield, Win the V-Cup, the fake cup, and make a good run at the MLS Cup and go to the Champions League Quarter Finals... I think we can all be happy.

    There is no V Cup next year,CSA changed competition format for V Cup, team with most points at the end of this MLS season will qualify directly for Champions league 2015/16.

    That puts even more weight on this season,and maybe a reason why Champions league wasn't priority this year,but playoffs and best placed Canadian team at the end of regular MLS season.
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    Quote Originally Posted by denime View Post
    There is no V Cup next year,CSA changed competition format for V Cup, team with most points at the end of this MLS season will qualify directly for Champions league 2015/16.

    That puts even more weight on this season,and maybe a reason why Champions league wasn't priority this year,but playoffs and best placed Canadian team at the end of regular MLS season.
    That is why I included it with this years measure of success list.

    if we qualify.. by being the top team in the league this year.. ie finishing ahead of Vancouver who currently have 21 points in 13 games.

    It's also why I included the V-cup in next years goals.
    Last edited by Kaz; 06-09-2014 at 12:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PopePouri View Post
    If the season ended now, we'd get the 3rd, 12th, 13th and 21st pick.
    Who's the team that we would get the 3rd pick from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza_55 View Post
    Who's the team that we would get the 3rd pick from?
    Chivas, from the Bocanegra deal.

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    Currently TFC sits only behind Seattle Sounders in PPG, i heard someone say that Leiweke was in trouble of his position with MLSE, as of right now he helped take the Raptors to the playoffs, and we are currently looking better than any previous year, yet the ownership group is upset with Leiweke, that makes no sense to me at all and hopefully there is not backing behind it whatsoever

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    ^ I wouldn't expect there is a lot of substance to those rumours. Like you said, TFC is starting to get it's collective shit together and the Raptors did a great job making people stand up and really get behind the team. The WE THE NORTH marketing campaign was a mark of genius and Tim L deserves the accolades for pushing that message.

    I would imagine Leiweke will be here for at least a few years more. I mean, it's gonna take time to even begin to turn the Leafs around, after all.
    Last edited by Cashcleaner; 06-09-2014 at 02:20 AM.
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    There is a ton of instability right now at the senior level of Rogers. The people who did the MLSE deal are not in charge.

    The danger is that Leiweke quits because Rogers and Bell go to war at the MLSE board, and he can't get anything done.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    The new Rogers team is very focused on mobile and maximising revenue in each channel. They are worried about Netflix and hoping their mobile payment option becomes the next Paypal. And their is real concern about hockey actually paying off.

    There is no indication yet that they are trying to create a feud with Bell at MLSE for the sake of being seen to be the top Alpha Male in the business.

    The Jays involvement is driven by the board (i.e. the Rogers family who remain the major shareholders) and is going nowhere.

    The MLSE involvement is a way to ensure Bell doesn't get that lucrative GTHA content asset to itself.


    As these are all alpha males who make decisions often based on hormonal responses to balance sheets, who knows what will happen but the talk of upset happening now is based on theories rather then what has occurred in the MLSE board room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by denime View Post
    There is no V Cup next year,CSA changed competition format for V Cup, team with most points at the end of this MLS season will qualify directly for Champions league 2015/16.

    That puts even more weight on this season,and maybe a reason why Champions league wasn't priority this year,but playoffs and best placed Canadian team at the end of regular MLS season.
    So on that note, does Montreal have to give up the Trophy once top spot is claimed in October? Or do they get to keep it for an extra year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    The new Rogers team is very focused on mobile and maximising revenue in each channel. They are worried about Netflix and hoping their mobile payment option becomes the next Paypal. And their is real concern about hockey actually paying off.

    There is no indication yet that they are trying to create a feud with Bell at MLSE for the sake of being seen to be the top Alpha Male in the business.

    The Jays involvement is driven by the board (i.e. the Rogers family who remain the major shareholders) and is going nowhere.

    The MLSE involvement is a way to ensure Bell doesn't get that lucrative GTHA content asset to itself.


    As these are all alpha males who make decisions often based on hormonal responses to balance sheets, who knows what will happen but the talk of upset happening now is based on theories rather then what has occurred in the MLSE board room.
    I can imagine Bell and Rogers being concerned about netflix but the real lifeline is sports, it keeps the cable plugged in for a lot of fans out there, hence the heavy investment and the need to win. It keeps everyone tuned in.
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    The thing I noticed is that I really enjoy watching games this season. I know TFC can win any game they plan in. They won't win them all obviously but I know winning is a possibility every single time. I never felt that way in the last two years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    So on that note, does Montreal have to give up the Trophy once top spot is claimed in October? Or do they get to keep it for an extra year?
    Almost certain that they will have to give it up. The Voyageurs Cup was originally awarded based on A-League standings, not on a Cup play.
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    ....that feeling that we are going to concede in the last 10 min of the game is gone. We may even score one now instead...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    So on that note, does Montreal have to give up the Trophy once top spot is claimed in October? Or do they get to keep it for an extra year?
    It's a confusing process, so let me attempt to clear it up.

    There WILL be a Voyageurs' Cup next year. The only difference is that unlike previous years where the winner of the V Cup qualified for that same year's CCL, going forward the winner will qualify for the following year's CCL.

    So the winner of the 2015 V Cup will qualify for the 2016/17 CCL.

    This leaves a one year gap where there is no tournament to decide the entrant into the 2015/16 CCL. So as a one-time fix, the top MLS team will qualify for next year's CCL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    The new Rogers team is very focused on mobile and maximising revenue in each channel. They are worried about Netflix and hoping their mobile payment option becomes the next Paypal. And their is real concern about hockey actually paying off.

    There is no indication yet that they are trying to create a feud with Bell at MLSE for the sake of being seen to be the top Alpha Male in the business.

    The Jays involvement is driven by the board (i.e. the Rogers family who remain the major shareholders) and is going nowhere.

    The MLSE involvement is a way to ensure Bell doesn't get that lucrative GTHA content asset to itself.


    As these are all alpha males who make decisions often based on hormonal responses to balance sheets, who knows what will happen but the talk of upset happening now is based on theories rather then what has occurred in the MLSE board room.
    I could see Bell selling their shares in the future to have some cash on hand to go "war" against Rogers.

    Right now, Bell/TSN doesn't have much content and they're planning to have 5 channels end of the year. So they will need money and invest into their current content while create content to make up lack of hockey and baseball (Blue Jays) games that consistently get great ratings. CFL, NFL and World Junior is only premium content that they have, but they don't play a lot of games compare to hockey and baseball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    There is a ton of instability right now at the senior level of Rogers. The people who did the MLSE deal are not in charge.

    The danger is that Leiweke quits because Rogers and Bell go to war at the MLSE board, and he can't get anything done.
    Agreed. The Unholy Alliance was always destined to fail, and I just hope that Leiweke has the patience to see his mission through to the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Kool View Post
    ....that feeling that we are going to concede in the last 10 min of the game is gone. We may even score one now instead...
    It's still lingering for me, but slowly dissipating as we continue to successfully protect leads. After all, there's a lot of emotional baggage there...

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    And if my uncle was a girl he would be my aunt....

    MLS has playoffs. Season ends today we are in the playoffs. Come October we will be in the playoffs. Don't worry about what ifs that have nothing to do with us.

 

 

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