TFC's potential under a GOOD coach?

[AdamAM]

I think it's safe to say that we now all know Nelsen is not a good coach. Multiple baffling subs/formations have happened that not even a rep level coach would do. We know he's a people person, but he's not a tactician in the slightest. So my question is, what is, as it stands now, this teams potential under a proven MLS coach? (Kreis, Sigi, Arena, Pareja, Petke) I'm asking this because I think Nelsen's leash is getting shorter and shorter with each game, and he'll be fired soon enough. I think Leiweke is gonna make a big splash with this next head coach, and I think if it's the right guy, TFC can go deep into the playoffs, to around the Eastern Conference Finals, probably bowing out to SKC.

The right coach would be able to get even more out of Bradley, playing him in a more attacking roaming position instead of a defensive roaming position, all while making sure the backline is still covered by Warner/Orr. He could also move Gilberto behind Defoe, where he would be much more effective imo, because he's got the pace and control to push the backline and make them make a mistake, thus leading to Defoe finding some space

[ExiledRed]

There are people who support this team that will claim he is a genius right up until the day he is fired. Then they will act like they never liked him.

I'm on the fence with this guy. I dont see good things happening. I do see an improvement in the attitudes of the players, but the organization and tactics are as stale as ever.

I don't trust that an unproven managers poor results are not related to his inexperience, and I dont think success starved TFC should be the place for new managers to get experience, unless they prove they are special.

I dont believe Nelsen is special, but Im dying for him to prove me wrong, because the truth is, I just want a coach I can put my faith in and go back to blindly supporting the team like I do for Liverpool.

For Liverpool I was in the 'this guy isnt blooded enough' camp for Rodgers. I wanted Rafa back, and I resented what happened to Dalglish. Rodgers proved me wrong very quickly. I could see what he was doing and despite the fact that we didnt improve our standings in his first year, we could all see the change in direction he was taking and we were able to stay optimistic because the new direction was exciting.

With Nelsen I see the opposite. I dont see 'gelling', I dont see what direction we're supposed to be going in and I don't see any consistency at all. I am not excitred by the future, but terrified that we just became the Watford of MLS.

Rodgers was on top of the situation by year two. If he hadnt been , he would be gone. Why is Nelsen, in his second year, exempt from needing to show something for his time here?
Why, without any consistent improvement on the pitch do people trust this unknown quantity?

I believe that an experienced coach with a proven track record, could have taken almost any squad we've had and made the playoffs. This squad is absolutely no exception.

[reggie]

im not a fan of his style,but I will wait until we get our full midfield together,bradley,warner,oso, and somebody new on the wing,i really like rey,but he has been ave at best so far,and gilberto does not look the part so far..

[Shakes McQueen]

I'm still undecided on Nelsen overall, as I wonder if another guy to more reliably get Defoe the ball (for example) would make his tactics more successful. There's no doubt that he's still missing some quality pieces, which will have to come with some patience, and shrewd moves by Tim B.

That said, I've had enough of the Preki-style "defend and hang on for dear life" stuff, seemingly every week. I've seen Nelsen deploy intelligent tactics before - we played Columbus like a fiddle by letting them try to hoof in crosses to their small forwards' heads all day - but doing the same thing against every team? His use of our subs has also left a lot to do desired, after a pretty good start to the season I thought.

I'm still hopeful that this is just him sussing out what some of these guys can do, and how to best use them - but he doesn't have a lot longer to raise their game, before someone like Tim L drops the axe.

We are still 5th best in league for points per game, so this is hardly Aron Winter territory, but the majority of those games have still been ugly slogs with one or two bright moments that saved us. They need to be more than that.

[Oldtimer]

I think it's too early to say we "know" that Nelsen "is not a good coach."
He is an inexperienced coach.
The only measurement that counts is MLS playoffs.

[Pookie]

One of TFC's main challenges in keeping possession and moving the ball on the ground is passing and receiving. Basic stuff.

The team has one of the worst passing accuracy metrics in MLS.

Is that on the coach?

[adam1001]

One of TFC's main challenges in keeping possession and moving the ball on the ground is passing and receiving. Basic stuff.

The team has one of the worst passing accuracy metrics in MLS.

Is that on the coach?

Absolutely. It shows that players don't know when to anticipate passes or how to move off the ball. These are skills that are acquired through training sessions. There is no tactical vision or methodology in moving the ball forward on this team. We simply hoof the ball forward, or make pointless passes in the middle of the park leading to turnovers.

[Section 117]

Absolutely. It shows that players don't know when to anticipate passes or how to move off the ball. These are skills that are acquired through training sessions. There is no tactical vision or methodology in moving the ball forward on this team. We simply hoof the ball forward, or make pointless passes in the middle of the park leading to turnovers.

I'm sorry this is not on Neslon that is all on the players... They are professionals who get paid to play and if they can't do what i bolded from your comment then they should be punted... If you want to blame Nelson for his formation and subs fine, but to blame him because players don't move or can't pass a ball for the life of them is dead wrong.

Last night I lost count of how many times a TFC palyer made a pass and it was the right idea but wrong execution. Meaning the ball should be played on the floor and it was wasit hign or ball should have went over the top and the palyed it on the floor. I will reserve judgement until we have the full team together sometime in July

[jabbronies]

TFC players need to stop making stupid mistakes before we can actually 100% blame the manager.
Right now TFC's faults are 50% players 50% managers fault.

They are playing a stale system that doesn't make for good football

But that system doesn't tell them to hand the ball over to the other team with shitty passes
or to go to ground instead of fight for a clear 50/50 ball
or just head the ball in the air without any purpose
or long passes to a guy halfway across the pitch being covered by 2 guys and hope he gets it
or not watch your runs so that you are onside when the pass goes through
or to hold on to the ball for 2 seconds too long and then do nothing with it once all of your open lanes are closed down

and then repeat all of these mistakes over and over again in a single game

This team is still a work in progress
Prime example from last night - when Morgan was subbed off and Morrow came on - the whole right side of the pitch changed and the game was flowing much better on that side of the pitch.

There are still holes in this team - IMO until that is sorted - I don't see how another manager will make things better.
If some of these guys can't even play this mundane style how in the fuck will they play something more free flowing and complicated?

[Fort York Redcoat]

There are people who support this team that will claim he is a genius right up until the day he is fired. Then they will act like they never liked him.

I'm on the fence with this guy. I dont see good things happening. I do see an improvement in the attitudes of the players, but the organization and tactics are as stale as ever.

I don't trust that an unproven managers poor results are not related to his inexperience, and I dont think success starved TFC should be the place for new managers to get experience, unless they prove they are special.

"People" sounds plural and I haven't seen or heard one person yet put "Nelsen" and "Genius" in the same sentence. You're being extreme in your assessment.

I think last night was undeniably a poor game from both the management decisions and play quality. The first we have heard an excuse for unfortunately- Nelsen does not prioritize this tourney by his own admission so as much as I won't excuse him at least there's been a reason for it. The poor quality of play , and we're talking about the basics as above, can't be wholly put on the manager but there is always a point where one has to make sure the manager is one the players respond to.

Sat will be a better sample since Nelsen had been doing better the past 2 regular season games. Last night looked like a preseason game at times.

[David_Oliveira]

I am leaning to the side that his decisions are starting to cost us none more than the KC game. That was a game we should have won (which is weird to say considering how good KC has been over the last few years and our track record in the past against them).

Subbing in Henry was a bad move considering who the ref was and his track record. I would have moved Orr to CB, pushed Warner to his natural CM and brought in Dero on at LM. You get that experience back in D that you lost when Caldwell was sent off.

As soon as Henry came in, I told the people I was watching the game with that he was going to give up a PK. Toledo is always going to be whistle happy. You have to try and negate him almost as much as you have to negate your opponent.

In 5 games this year, he's given 141 fouls, 22 cards, and 3 penalties. We have also lost both games he has reffed. On average, Baldy is giving 4.4 cards per game and calling for penalties once every other game.

But hindsight is 20-20

[Canary10]

Anyone who says he has no tactical knowledge or a direction is dead wrong. He knows exactly what his tactics and direction are, the problem is most people are not a fan of it.

[C.Ronaldo]

against MTL, any other coach would have started subbing guys off when the flames were getting too hot, but no. Nelson choose time and time again to get burnt. Like its a life lesson he is trying to drive home.

and its true he knows his tactic, but his tactic is dead wrong for MLS and dead wrong when your DP is not scoring

[ryan]

I don't like his player selection. I don't like our use of subs. I don't like our form. I don't like our total lack of offensive...anything. I don't like how fucking boring this team continues to be.

However. We're in a decent spot in the table. The players seem to like him. There's no locker room chaos (that I know of.) So we got that going for us, which is nice.

[Richard]

Anyone who says he has no tactical knowledge or a direction is dead wrong. He knows exactly what his tactics and direction are, the problem is most people are not a fan of it.

My biggest gripe with him is his lack of tactical flexibility. Does that mean he has a lack of knowledge? I'm not entirely sure at the moment, Winter never budged from his 4-3-3 does that mean he was dumb too? Even the best managers in the world do not use the same formation every game, it seems like teams adjust to us fairly easily while we continue to struggle to exploit bad teams like Montreal.

Gilberto is a perfect example, a striker who is jinxed at the moment but has the skill set to play another position like AM or CF should be moved around, not trotted out doing the same thing.

[maninb]

I think Nelson is a VERY GOOD defensive coach, but must improve his attacking schemes....Of course if Gilberto could hit the broadside of a barn that would be helpful...

[Ultra & Proud]

Anyone who says he has no tactical knowledge or a direction is dead wrong. He knows exactly what his tactics and direction are, the problem is most people are not a fan of it.

This is what it is. With past managers including Winter you could say this because if you went to a "B" squad or brought in newer players they were lost. Same with Mariner. Whether it was having no tactical plan (Mariner) or not being able to properly instruct the players on how to carry out the game plan (Winter), you could see that players were lost and that lead to poor shapes and a massive goals against every year. Now when we get new players, bench guys, or academy kids they all know where to be and what to do. That is having a tactical plan and you can see that players are buying into it. Whether it's because the plan is simple or whether it will change when we settle remains to be seen but we do have tactics as Canary said. Just not the tactics some folks want. After many seasons of giving up boat loads of goals against and being rooted to the basement of MLS, I will take this approach for now and the points that come with it.

Of course, if Gilberto's strike rate was even moderately decent we'd be having a different chat right now.

[jabbronies]

My biggest gripe with him is his lack of tactical flexibility. Does that mean he has a lack of knowledge? I'm not entirely sure at the moment, Winter never budged from his 4-3-3 does that mean he was dumb too? Even the best managers in the world do not use the same formation every game, it seems like teams adjust to us fairly easily while we continue to struggle to exploit bad teams like Montreal.

Gilberto is a perfect example, a striker who is jinxed at the moment but has the skill set to play another position like AM or CF should be moved around, not trotted out doing the same thing.

So what? Last night you move Gilberto into an AM role....who then is he feeding? Andrew Weideman or Dero? Or do you then have to trot out Defo as a lone striker because the two non-DP guys I just mentioned are not reliable enough to score?

You can't look at Gilberto alone and assume moving him somewhere else on the pitch is the answer to the problem.
It opens up other problems around the pitch.

[Canary10]

This is what it is. With past managers including Winter you could say this because if you went to a "B" squad or brought in newer players they were lost. Same with Mariner. Whether it was having no tactical plan (Mariner) or not being able to properly instruct the players on how to carry out the game plan (Winter), you could see that players were lost and that lead to poor shapes and a massive goals against every year. Now when we get new players, bench guys, or academy kids they all know where to be and what to do. That is having a tactical plan and you can see that players are buying into it. Whether it's because the plan is simple or whether it will change when we settle remains to be seen but we do have tactics as Canary said. Just not the tactics some folks want. After many seasons of giving up boat loads of goals against and being rooted to the basement of MLS, I will take this approach for now and the points that come with it.

Of course, if Gilberto's strike rate was even moderately decent we'd be having a different chat right now.

It would be nice if the media would question him more on this. He's getting a bit of a free ride from them right now and fans don't have a chance to question him after every game.

[ManUtd4ever]

Nelsen could very well be a good coach. He's just not proving to be the right fit for our squad thus far.

[prizby]

I think it's safe to say that we now all know Nelsen is not a good coach. Multiple baffling subs/formations have happened that not even a rep level coach would do. We know he's a people person, but he's not a tactician in the slightest. So my question is, what is, as it stands now, this teams potential under a proven MLS coach? (Kreis, Sigi, Arena, Pareja, Petke) I'm asking this because I think Nelsen's leash is getting shorter and shorter with each game, and he'll be fired soon enough. I think Leiweke is gonna make a big splash with this next head coach, and I think if it's the right guy, TFC can go deep into the playoffs, to around the Eastern Conference Finals, probably bowing out to SKC.

The right coach would be able to get even more out of Bradley, playing him in a more attacking roaming position instead of a defensive roaming position, all while making sure the backline is still covered by Warner/Orr. He could also move Gilberto behind Defoe, where he would be much more effective imo, because he's got the pace and control to push the backline and make them make a mistake, thus leading to Defoe finding some space

huh...Petke is a good coach? I'd argue Arena isn't that great either, he just always had players to take him over the top. The problem is, you fire him now, WHO do you replace him with...there isn't a 'good' coach out there with MLS experience (and don't tell me Jesse Marsch lol)


we have played a total of 1 game with our 'best' XI (which we won)

Cesar/Bendik
Bloom-Caldwell-Hagglund/Henry-Morrow
Jackson-Bradley-Osorio-Rey
Gilberto/Moore-Defoe

[Canary10]

huh...Petke is a good coach? I'd argue Arena isn't that great either, he just always had players to take him over the top. The problem is, you fire him now, WHO do you replace him with...there isn't a 'good' coach out there with MLS experience (and don't tell me Jesse Marsch lol)

In MLS right now there are only maybe three coaches with a lot of MLS experience and a record you can point to as being good: Arena, Kinnear and Schmidt. Unless we get one of those, we are just trading for another coach with some form of similar liability to what Nelsen has.

[PopePouri]

If you want tactical inflexibility then look no further than Bruce Arena. For I think 3 straight seasons, he played a flat 4-4-2 only.

[MikeM]

I think Nelson is a VERY GOOD defensive coach, but must improve his attacking schemes....Of course if Gilberto could hit the broadside of a barn that would be helpful...

Nelsen is not a good defensive coach. He is just lining up two banks of four and praying. We are conceding possession, even in dangerous areas. We are not attempting to win balls high up the field. We are not using the touchline as an extra defender. We are not swarming the ball. We are not forcing bad passes and anticipating to create counter attacks. The forwards are not funneling play and pressuring. Our team does not move high up the pitch as a unit. There are too many gaps when we dare to venture outside of our own 18.

We are bunkering, not defending.

[Phil]

I get frustrated by Nelsens lack of creativity with tactics and that pretty much puts me on the fence with him.

Coaches from the past that I had a lot of disdain openly for after trying to give them a shot - Mariner, Preki

Nelsen hasn't fallen to that level for me, just really unsure about him and the amount of assistant coaches he needs to line up a 4-4-2 countering team every game.

[ExiledRed]

I think it's too early to say we "know" that Nelsen "is not a good coach."

I agree with this.....somewhat.

I think its too early to know if Nelsen is going to learn how to be a good coach.

All I want is to get a coach who we KNOW is good before we hire him.

Just once.... you know, for a change.

[Huyton]

If MLS experience was not a factor, who would you bring in?

[Super]

I'd just like to see more entertaining football. That's obviously a given for any football supporter, but I do feel that our style of play is far more boring than should be tolerated. The results have been acceptable overall, but we have yet to really dominate a game, and more often than not we appear to be kinda lucky to win games/points. It's a bit random for me. It makes me think that Nelsen doesn't know what he's doing. It's hard not to feel that way right now. Hopefully Nelsen is working towards something greater. On paper we have a great team, and we should be able to dominate games, and play a style of football that we can all be proud of - and win games in the process. That should be the goal. Leiweke came out swinging, talking about success, and becoming a super club in the league. We have to be much, much better to be considered a top club in this league. Not sure Nelsen's direction is the right one.

[barticusz]

Just wait for the return of Bradley. If Warner can hold down the DM role, Bradley will have the ability to control the attacking side of the midfield. No more Bekker and Osorio would be a blessing.

[OgtheDim]

It is really difficult to look good as a manager if your midfield is crap.

Moyes can tell you all that.

Laba has not been replaced.
Rey has proven, IMHO, to be ineffectual.
Jackson is great defensively, but near useless going forward.
Osorio is injured and not ready yet.
DeRo isn't a side midfielder anymore.

We'll see about Warner and Lovitz.

When /if we get a decent partner for Bradley and a couple of decent side midfielders, we'll know if Nelsen is any good.