Payne Re-appraisal

[ensco]

Urruti on 5 goals now. Laba is a star.

I am still bothered by the treatment Payne got from the team, and from these boards. He got ripped. All kinds of innuendo. Led by Nelsen first and foremost. It's still going on, that Sports Business Journal story from a couple of days ago quoting the ticket manager darkly going on about how terrible things were when he got here.

Leiweke had the right to take him out. But he could have just bought Bradley and Defoe, and otherwise left him alone.

Firing him is not looking very smart at all.

[cochrdoc]

I do not think Payne`s way of developing this team is any worst of a job that is going on now.Both Laba and Urruti are establishing themselves in this league.Gilberto is struggling and Bradley fell on their lap.We still have major weaknesses that have not been dealt with.It would have been interesting to see who Payne would have brought in.Nelson needs to start bringing this team along.There are to many excuses

[Yohan]

It's obvious that Payne wanted total control over TFC and Tim L wanted someone who'll do what he says. 2 alpha males with big egos butting heads. Never was going to work out.

[barticusz]

Would Urruti have the same service that he gets in Portland?

No he wouldn't.

[ManUtd4ever]

It was a clash of egos and philosophy.

Given his tenure in the league, Payne wasn't going to be anybody's yes man. He wanted to take the fiscally responsible, slow and steady route to building the team by sticking with youth and using the available DP slots on young imports with potential such as Urruti and Laba.

Conversely, Leiweke wanted to turn us into Hollywood North and reverse the team's fortunes overnight by spending unprecedented amounts of money in the off season and acquiring marquee names.

[Pookie]

It was a clash of egos and philosophy.

Given his tenure in the league, Payne wasn't going to be anybody's yes man. He wanted to take the fiscally responsible, slow and steady route to building the team by sticking with youth and using the available DP slots on young imports with potential such as Urruti and Laba.

Conversely, Leiweke wanted to turn us into Hollywood North and reverse the team's fortunes overnight by spending unprecedented amounts of money in the off season and acquiring marquee names.

I'm going to copy off your page here and say "yep"

The only challenge that I would give with respect to Payne's short tenure was having 2 first round draft picks in the 2013 entry draft and trading down… and down… to get Welshman who was released this year.

Probably will never know the full story on that as allocation money was received but Vancouver used the pick on Mennah, a Generation Adidas player with no budget charge, who would look good in Red right about now. I would have thought that a slow and steady youth movement would have wanted to add a player like that.

[Tony Santiago]

This seems like a strange thread. Our team is far better than we were last year. The record and team performances speak for themselves. Why start a thread like this?

Bradley is an upgrade over Laba, as good as a player as Laba is. Urruti didn't look good with us, sort of like Gilberto now. It takes some time to adjust to a new league. Gilberto will adjust and start putting some balls in the net. He is still a quality player who back tracks and runs hard. I know he wasn't signed to run around, but writing him off and comparing him to Urruti is the kind of thinking that had Urruti shipped out right away.

Payne might have been okay, but he wasn't Leiweke's guy. It's not like we have gotten worse...we've improved. Why are we supposed to care about Kevin Payne when we have a big spending, knowledgeable GM in place now and our team has improved?

[Pookie]

We haven't really improved relative to other years though. 2013, yes. Absolutely.

As far as Urutti, an interesting thing to imagine is what Bradley-Laba-Urutti would look like as a core. A very young, usually healthy, group that could play together for the better part of a decade. Add 4-5 first round draft picks next year and in 2-3 years this team would be something completely different.

[ag futbol]

Would Urruti have the same service that he gets in Portland?

No he wouldn't.

Shouldn't the point be to get your strikers service? Especially if you have someone who can put the ball in the back of the net. Our do-it-yourself project going forward continues to be underwhelming. Yeah Urruti gets better service in Portland but TFC should be working towards providing a similar platform for their front players.

As far as Payne goes, I appreciate his work (certainly not a liability) but it had limitations. Nelsen wasn't the right choice for his vision, they never saw eye to eye tactically. The draft work was dubious and really draws into question their professionalism. This year they did much better than when Payne called the shots.

Either way, the biggest issue in the management department for TFC continues to be that we have no seasoned football person anywhere. It's a circus ringmaster, a dorky lawyer, and a former player supported by über light weight staff. For what this organization wants to pull off it is necessary to have someone really seasoned in the sport around. Whether that's in the president, coach, or GM spot I don't particularly care, but give us someone.

[ensco]

This seems like a strange thread. Our team is far better than we were last year. The record and team performances speak for themselves. Why start a thread like this?

Bradley is an upgrade over Laba, as good as a player as Laba is. Urruti didn't look good with us, sort of like Gilberto now. It takes some time to adjust to a new league. Gilberto will adjust and start putting some balls in the net. He is still a quality player who back tracks and runs hard. I know he wasn't signed to run around, but writing him off and comparing him to Urruti is the kind of thinking that had Urruti shipped out right away.

Payne might have been okay, but he wasn't Leiweke's guy. It's not like we have gotten worse...we've improved. Why are we supposed to care about Kevin Payne when we have a big spending, knowledgeable GM in place now and our team has improved?

I think very few people think we are "far better". If you do, you are entitled to your view. People who feel this way seem to be basing it on points. We have the same number of points, and look less like a team, than Preki's 2010 team did. That says different things to different people I guess.

The question isn't "are we better" (because we obviously are with Bradley and Defoe), but "are we better than we would have been if we had kept Payne"?

Obviously no one can say what would have happened ... but I think the answer is "no".

Mostly because what Payne was doing (bringing in good MLS caliber talent at MLS prices) is more long-term sustainable than bringing in $6M/year players. We are one bad board meeting away from Leiweke being gone and the next guy selling off Defoe and Bradley.

Payne was building something that the next guy could have built on (but chose not to). You won't be able to say that about Leiweke.

I agree with the post above that the 2013 draft turned out horribly is a stain on Payne's record btw. Although he may have needed that allocation dough for Urruti and/or Laba, not sure.

Overall, I'd far rather have Urruti/Laba/Bekker instead of Gilberto/Dike/Hagglund, and I like what I have seen so far from Hagglund. I'd also still have millions in my pocket to spend this summer, something that is going to matter one of these days to someone. (I recognize that we don't yet know how the Laba trade worked, but I have learned not to expect much in these circumstances)

[reggie]

why don't we jus support the club we have now,what is the point,if that if this,bullshit.

[ExiledRed]

why don't we jus support the club we have now,what is the point,if that if this,bullshit.

The point is to populate a discussion board with opinions, analysis, and you know... discourse.

I think we can do this while we are supporting the club and that one is not exclusive of the other.

[Tony Santiago]

I think very few people think we are "far better". If you do, you are entitled to your view. People who feel this way seem to be basing it on points. We have the same number of points, and look less like a team, than Preki's 2010 team did. That says different things to different people I guess.

The question isn't "are we better" (because we obviously are with Bradley and Defoe), but "are we better than we would have been if we had kept Payne"?

Obviously no one can say what would have happened ... but I think the answer is "no".

Mostly because what Payne was doing (bringing in good MLS caliber talent at MLS prices) is more long-term sustainable than bringing in $6M/year players. We are one bad board meeting away from Leiweke being gone and the next guy selling off Defoe and Bradley.

Payne was building something that the next guy could have built on (but chose not to). You won't be able to say that about Leiweke.

I agree with the post above that the 2013 draft turned out horribly is a stain on Payne's record btw. Although he may have needed that allocation dough for Urruti and/or Laba, not sure.

Overall, I'd far rather have Urruti/Laba/Bekker instead of Gilberto/Dike/Hagglund, and I like what I have seen so far from Hagglund. I'd also still have millions in my pocket to spend this summer, something that is going to matter one of these days to someone. (I recognize that we don't yet know how the Laba trade worked, but I have learned not to expect much in these circumstances)

Dike was performing well before he got hurt. It's hard to fault a guy for having a serious injury. We still have Bekker. Hagglund is a good young player and what we needed. He has given us some depth at CB that was very lacking. I don't understand the comparison to Laba, Urruti and Bekker.

We were a team that collapsed routinely. Now we are a team that guts out results and is capable of getting late goals and points on the road. That's why I think we are far better.

Prekki is so far gone. I don't even think about Prekki. That's like comparing this team to Chris Cummins squad.

Personally I was sick of waiting for the development of players. There is no certainty in that. You can develop players like we are doing, but clearly we are a big money team. You can spend big while developing talent. I'm not sure why you claim that under Leiweke we won't develop players. We're doing that and playing a guy like Henry who is still developing.

I think a player like Jackson has been very underrated and has added quality depth, as has Morrow. We have also had contributions from players like Issy (still confused about that trade, but time will tell) and Moore. It's not like it has been a comedy of errors after Payne left.

Obviously one is entitled to their opinion, but I'm just surprised to see Kevin Payne's name appear longingly while we are having a pretty good season so far.

[jloome]

Dike was performing well before he got hurt. It's hard to fault a guy for having a serious injury. We still have Bekker. Hagglund is a good young player and what we needed. He has given us some depth at CB that was very lacking. I don't understand the comparison to Laba, Urruti and Bekker.

We were a team that collapsed routinely. Now we are a team that guts out results and is capable of getting late goals and points on the road. That's why I think we are far better.

Prekki is so far gone. I don't even think about Prekki. That's like comparing this team to Chris Cummins squad.

Personally I was sick of waiting for the development of players. There is no certainty in that. You can develop players like we are doing, but clearly we are a big money team. You can spend big while developing talent. I'm not sure why you claim that under Leiweke we won't develop players. We're doing that and playing a guy like Henry who is still developing.

I think a player like Jackson has been very underrated and has added quality depth, as has Morrow. We have also had contributions from players like Issy (still confused about that trade, but time will tell) and Moore. It's not like it has been a comedy of errors after Payne left.

Obviously one is entitled to their opinion, but I'm just surprised to see Kevin Payne's name appear longingly while we are having a pretty good season so far.

I think we're having the wrong debate. Kevin Payne can't affect our club any more; he also came with a rep of recent failure in D.C. that stretched back for several years, and the consensus there was that he was playing in MLS 1.0

His draft was awful; his coach's start was awful and from what I've seen so far, hasn't gotten much better under a new boss. He chose Laba, but Laba was the captain of Argentinos Junior and hardly an unknown commodity. Urruti may come good, but he's hardly of Defoe quality (or DP, if you ask me).

To me, we have a GM now who can build a decent squad in Tim B, and we've acquired some better players; but the improvement is slow, laborious and tactically somewhat inept. I still hate that we're Ryan Nelsen's training program.

[ensco]

why don't we jus support the club we have now,what is the point,if that if this,bullshit.

I'm trying to see this the way Leiweke's bosses see this.

If that isn't interesting to you, just pass on by. jeez.

[reggie]

I support the team...win or lose,its a game,entertainment,why do care about the money the owners..blah,blah, blah.
I watch the game on the pitch,not in TL private box.

[ensco]

I support the team...win or lose,its a game,entertainment,why do care about the money the owners..blah,blah, blah.
I watch the game on the pitch,not in TL private box.

I don't have the time, or the crayons, to explain this to you.

[ag futbol]

Dike was performing well before he got hurt. It's hard to fault a guy for having a serious injury.

He's always had injury issues. I don't blame the player, but management had to know it was a calculated risk to have him as a backup.

[starter]

Portland was very enthusiastic for the deal, which should have been a red flag to anybody, but RN.

[reggie]

no worries...maybe you can explain it in cartoon form...if and when we win something,cya on the bandwagon...im done with this negative crap..re Ensco/pookie..it would be to nice to actually talk futbol once in a while..

[prizby]

Urruti on 5 goals now. Laba is a star.

I am still bothered by the treatment Payne got from the team, and from these boards. He got ripped. All kinds of innuendo. Led by Nelsen first and foremost. It's still going on, that Sports Business Journal story from a couple of days ago quoting the ticket manager darkly going on about how terrible things were when he got here.

Leiweke had the right to take him out. But he could have just bought Bradley and Defoe, and otherwise left him alone.

Firing him is not looking very smart at all.

he wanted to sign Diego Forlan to a 3 year contract

[jloome]

no worries...maybe you can explain it in cartoon form...if and when we win something,cya on the bandwagon...im done with this negative crap..re Ensco/pookie..it would be to nice to actually talk futbol once in a while..

Bye bye now.

I for one feel shocked, nay stunned, at the loss of such a scintillating contribution.

Dike definitely has joint and tendon issues; he's a big guy, like Gordon or Eric Hassli. They don't seem to fare well in this league (or maybe it's just a size/weight thing.) OBW was a pretty big, strong guy, too, and his knees didn't last long.)

[Pookie]

^ I'm still trying to figure out what is negative about taking a position that says don't fire the coach or don't sh*t on our young players… give them time because they aren't there yet.

Maybe just cranky that the "Bloody Big Deal" looks more and more like it could be the "Bloody Same Thing?"

[gate7]

We haven't really improved relative to other years though. 2013, yes. Absolutely.

As far as Urutti, an interesting thing to imagine is what Bradley-Laba-Urutti would look like as a core. A very young, usually healthy, group that could play together for the better part of a decade. Add 4-5 first round draft picks next year and in 2-3 years this team would be something completely different.

I like this post... 100%

[gate7]

Is Bradley an improvement over Laba? Arguably yes. BUT .....we didn't need a replacement for Laba we needed young quality alongside Laba such as Bradley.

[ensco]

he wanted to sign Diego Forlan to a 3 year contract

Was that really so dumb? I'd like to know what that deal was (compared to paying $40M for Defoe).

[habstfc]

Payne is still unemployed so that should tell you something as well. I liked Payne and what he was trying to do but TL was brought in and didn't share the same vision so let Payne go, happens all the time in the corporate world. I think we are far better than if we had Laba/urruti. Every game is sold out this season sponsorship deals way up, good business decisions all round.

[ensco]

Payne is still unemployed so that should tell you something as well. I liked Payne and what he was trying to do but TL was brought in and didn't share the same vision so let Payne go, happens all the time in the corporate world. I think we are far better than if we had Laba/urruti. Every game is sold out this season sponsorship deals way up, good business decisions all round.

He was 6 months into a multi year big bucks deal. Why get another job?

[ensco]

I think we're having the wrong debate. Kevin Payne can't affect our club any more; he also came with a rep of recent failure in D.C. that stretched back for several years, and the consensus there was that he was playing in MLS 1.0

His draft was awful; his coach's start was awful and from what I've seen so far, hasn't gotten much better under a new boss. He chose Laba, but Laba was the captain of Argentinos Junior and hardly an unknown commodity. Urruti may come good, but he's hardly of Defoe quality (or DP, if you ask me).

To me, we have a GM now who can build a decent squad in Tim B, and we've acquired some better players; but the improvement is slow, laborious and tactically somewhat inept. I still hate that we're Ryan Nelsen's training program.

The MLS 1.0 thing is unfair, at least re TFC. Urruti and Laba are how MLS 2.0 works.

The only thing MLS 1.0 about Payne's TFC stint was Nelsen and his 4-4-2 hoofball, and that is literally the only asset from Payne's stint that Leiweke kept.

[notthesun]

Isn't this the guy we all berated for signing old Europeans after he specifically said he wouldn't? For completely bungling the draft? The guy we crucified for saying "get used to it"? The guy who announced Tal Ben Haim's signing when he hadn't signed a thing? The guy who signed Julio Cesar (no, not that one) from SKC only for him to not play a game? The guy who picked up Braun on 125k (who's now in USL Pro), the guy who signed Elmer on 115k for him to never play? The guy who traded Plata, who's now killing it with RSL, for peanuts? The guy who traded Luis Silva, the kind of better-than-average core domestic player everyone always stresses we need more of, for nothing? This is the guy?

My oh my how times change. This thread rubs me the wrong way. As if the current regime has already been declared a failure. 9 games into the season and we want to go back? No thanks, not for me.