Do you really have to ask that question?Originally Posted by Pookie
Do you really have to ask that question?
^ sure I do.
Very small difference in budget charge. So that's moot. Football contributions? It wasn't about that. It wasn't about football. Unless the scouts were completely wrong on Urutti. He got 37 mins to prove himself here.
Tim L didn't think Urutti would sell tickets. He needed to make an offseason splash. So Urutti left and a more expensive player was brought in. To get that value they had to find and sign Gilberto who used whatever leverage he had to arrive at a payday.
I personally like Gilberto and his post game comments were fantastic in my eyes. On the tackles he received:
"Maybe it's because they want me to learn how to play in the MLS," said a visibly frustrated Gilberto, "and how the style of the league is here. However, I want to let them know that I'm not going to just roll over. That I'm going to play my game and I'm going to play strong and I'm going to play hard. I'm not somebody who is going to be a pushover."
http://www.wakingthered.com/2014/7/2...eat-toronto-fc
I don't care whether he scores more or less than Urutti at this stage. He's our player and his age makes him more critical to the long term success of this team… perhaps more than Defoe.
Of course the contract size matters! It's pure lunacy to say otherwise.
Gilberto also said he'd score 25 goals this year!
He said that it was his goal, not a guarantee. He's not Mattocks.
Again why does it matter?
Exactly, and do it like no one else in this league can.
You really need that explained? I think you're trolling.
Players are always evaluated on their cost versus what they produce. That's pro sports. Do you think Gareth Bale's 100 million Euro move to Real Madrid gave him licence to produce little last year? No way. People were constantly looking at his output versus what they paid for him. You buy a striker with a top 10 salary in the league, you are buying goals. If you're not getting the goals, you're wasting your money. I agree with you that there are other things - hype, selling shirts, etc that go along with a top salary in the league. Are we getting those with Gilberto? Don't think so. Think he's failing at the shirt selling even more than the goal scoring. If you really need an answer......
it's MLS, so it's not just all about the transfer fee or the wages.
if you look strictly at salary cap hit, Gilberto is a 368k player.
now if you want to look at other tangible variables outside player performance in relation to the cap hit, that's fine. but strictly from cap perspective...
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And a very high opportunity cost...
He's right though, in the end the bottom line is what you produce as a player vs the resources you take. Performance valuation goes beyond a salary cap hit.
The money and DP slot used on Giberto could have been used on someone else who does more. We just don't feel this mistake the way another club would because we are doing well and have more money to spend on other players.
Yeah I get that point.
But I would say once you hit that salary price becomes even more important since players at the level are rationed in MLS. Whereas in other leagues they are limited only by the number of players you're allowed on a team.
I won't disagree with this. However, I can't agree that it will lead to winning. You accommodate one player and what happens to the rest...
Until I see this happen, he remains in my bad books.
You seem to be suggesting Bradley isn't worth his contract (which is what Lalas said last night). This says to me you must think the player's price has some relevance.
Again with the "troll stuff." Nice.
Gilbert's budget charge is $350k. Urutti's is in the $200 range. So, his "cost" to the team is about $150k. Are you getting $150k more value for Gilberto?
Goals? No.
But it wasn't about football with that decision. The season ticket renewal process was delayed so that they could prove to us that they were serious about the team. Urutti couldn't deliver that. That's why he only got 37 mins here.
Gilberto, along with Defoe and others were part of the offseason momentum. That justifies his contract value. Not from a football perspective but in terms of what he brought here to do it does.
If you are going to argue he was brought here solely to produce, you will have to come up with a logical reason why Urutti, a player who was scouted and brought here received just 37 mins to prove himself.
I do think he has outlived his usefulness on the ticket selling front and I am in the ensco camp and think he will be moved for that reason. Particularly if Defoe leaves, they will need splash and based on his goals and non-A list personality, he isn't that guy.
To say he hasn't lived up to his contract ignores the very reason his contract was put in place and overstates the value $150k has on a budget that is flexed with allocation money whenever the league feels like it.
Last edited by Pookie; 07-29-2014 at 04:55 PM.
Trolling might be the wrong word. Facetious?
You were asking why money matters at all in evaluating a player in MLS. Then above you mention some things other than goals that should be considered when questioning whether a player's money is worth it. So asking me why it matters seems to be needlessy drawing out this conversation. We're just talking in circles about the same thing.
Let's not kid ourselves here: Gilberto signing was strictly soccer signing not marketing one. Signing unknown Brazilian isn't going to sell tickets in this market.
TFC could have easily signed someone like Gilardino who would have sold more tickets for TFC than Gilberto.
agreed ....wonder why Nelson hasn't jumped at this...?....his passes especially flicking over the top to Defoe are brilliant AND seemingly the only one on this team ( ok not Bradley, or Dero for that matter if he was younger) , who gets who our striker is........we have one ,...really . Lots of wanna bees unfortunately .
Last edited by jazzy; 07-29-2014 at 06:32 PM.
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Does anyone recall Gilberto picking out a difficult long pass? I've seen some neat flicks and lay offs, but not enough to suggest he'd thrive in an advanced midfield role. Other than the fact that he can't finish, is there a better reason for deploying him somewhere other than as a forward?
Here is the thing with TFC - they plot out their moves with bigish money, the board of directors makes them. So when they were courting names it was a must to get a DP like Defoe for them. Sells shirts, leads the team on and off the pitch, markets well. Then that leaves you with the other spots (at the time they only had Laba taking the DP slot) so they sign a lower priced DP, could be big impact, a 'B' DP so to speak. The monkey wrentch in it all was having Bradley available and getting approval for his contract. That really changed a lot about the outlook of the DP slot and how our team uses it from here forward.
The intent was to build a brand that players like Bradely would want to come to and it happened way earlier than any of them thought.
I see Gilberto working harder than most forwards out there and I think that is a big upside with him. He seems to get the ire of the ref pretty quick too, an adjustment to that end of the game is still needed.
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Can we PLEASE start all 3 of our DPs for a freaking game!?!?
Given our track record at spotting talent from the southern hemisphere, I'm shocked our marketing campaign didn't include the phrase:
"You'll see all your favorite soccer stars. Like Adiaga! Adiaga two! Badiaga! Aruglia! And Pizzoza!"
Gilberto's decent enough but hasn't lived up to the hype and that's where TFC let fans down. But I can't work up the energy to complain about him. Fretting about Jackson's scatter-brained play is draining enough.
I'd love to see Bradley as a defensive midfielder (wasn't that supposed to be his original position, or am I mis-remembering that?) with Gilberto as the Attacking midfielder in front of him, and Defoe up front.
Our three most intelligent footballers should be the spine of the team, playing in the middle of the field, with the "lesser lights" around them.
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Gotta say id like to see all 3 dps playing too.
Also Id like to see Warner sit a game with Osorio next to Bradley (like before WC break) and Lovitz on wing for either Oduro or Jackson.
Just to mix it up a bit and see what the result is.
Bradley's not that good in the tackle. He's a box to box with a playmaker twist. He ain't gonna play DM. So, playing with Osorio in a pivot midfield or with Gilberto in a diamond when we have ...ahem...issues in the back 4 is a bad idea.
To me, the issue hasn't been the midfield, its been the defence, and Jackson/Oduro being unable to score.
Last edited by OgtheDim; 07-31-2014 at 11:53 AM.
Bye bye Gilberto sorry to see you go but in the long run the faster you exit the better it will be for your career. I'm sorry I just find it hilarious that Payne's players were all hoofed off into the sunset but the red carpet has been rolled out for the coach he picked. The only consistency about Nelsen is that he under-performs. Last year he had a mediocre but decent squad and won 6 games. 6! Now he has the most expensive MLS team ever, much better role players, and is still a joke. Oh but Gilberto is a problem and Moore is a starter and cap savior lol.
The guy has 2 goals. That's terrible.
I just don't want to see Gilberto be the next Urruti where they give up on a player too soon and he goes to another MLS team and thrives.
Correct me if I'm wrong but do we have anyone who speaks Spanish or Portugese on the coaching staff? Doesn't seem like we do. Probably something that should look to address. Seems like most MLS teams have someone on staff who covers that off, often the first assistant
He's been coming off the bench half the year and has barely played with Defoe at all. They basically decided he was done after 7 appearances. Jackson has 3 goals as a defensive winger I suppose he's great then? Everyone here hates him although I actually do like him better than the start of the year. Earnshaw scored goals last year but was trash. Gilberto clearly has quality my only wish was a fair assessment as opposed to this musical chairs nonsense. At least the regime is admitting failure though by benching him.
How many times has he played with Defoe? How many minutes? Would you not say he was struggling after a 1/4 of a season? What's a fair assessment? Isn't trying the same ineffective lineup a failure? Why wouldn't you try new combinations in hopes our striker would start scoring?
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