Gilberto Ongoing Discussion Thread

[ag futbol]

This thread is about Gilberto though, and in my opinion the guy is absolute class. If he was on a team like Portland or LA everyone who dismisses him would see how good he really is. His work ethic mixed with his technical ability is second to none in MLS (don't know about the rest of the world). For me, his potential probably caps out at the Championship in England, or lower seeded clubs in the Bundesliga, but that's just from seeing him play with the horrible offense we had last year. Never really understood all the hate for him.

Seems to me there is a lot of hyperbole in there. You simply can't put him up there with the best players in this league and you'd be mistaken to think there aren't many of those that work just as hard as Gilberto does.

Bad offence or not the guy squandered a fair number of chances. First touch was also not very consistent. At best he's in the Claudio Bieler, Kenny Cooper, Eddie Johnson category until he proves otherwise.

[AdamAM]

Seems to me there is a lot of hyperbole in there. You simply can't put him up there with the best players in this league and you'd be mistaken to think there aren't many of those that work just as hard as Gilberto does.

Bad offence or not the guy squandered a fair number of chances. First touch was also not very consistent. At best he's in the Claudio Bieler, Kenny Cooper, Eddie Johnson category until he proves otherwise.

True, he did miss a lot of chances. From what I remember though, he had a great first touch and was very skillful with the ball. I think where he differs from the players you mentioned is that his technical ability is easily above all 3, and that alone puts him in a category above. To me, if he had scored even half of his sitters, he would be sitting somewhere at Cubo Torres status, though they do play slightly different roles because Gilberto drops a little bit deeper to pick the ball up while Cubo is more of a poacher that prowls around the net.

[kwhisperer]

Okay, it's been 10 games (including V-cup) and I think enough time has passed that we can begin to have the conversation of what to do with Gilberto.

Do we give him more time? If so are we doing that because of the sunk cost fallacy?
Do we trade/cut him and open up the DP slot?
Or a third option that I haven't considered?

I've been on board with him getting more time to adjust to the league, but after some of the displays my patience is wearing thin. I see a man with 0 confidence and it was especially stark in the 2nd whitecaps game. There was a play where he was running in on goal and rather than take his shot, he cut wide and couldn't finish his chance. Contrast that with Defoe who admittedly is in a different class, but he can create space when being triple teamed and still get a shot off. I'd expect a $1.5m DP to be me more threatening than some of our previous discards.

I do appreciate that he drops deep when pressure is on, but that's not what we paid him for. Wiedeman can do that and Jeremy Brockie/Ryan Johnson/Chad Barrett can run around like a headless chicken and apply pressure up top while not finishing their chances.

He's reminding me of Altidore at Sunderland; if Gilberto can't bag a goal within another month I think we need to cut our losses. It's not like he hasn't had the chances and management knows this. Why else is he being subbed off earlier and earlier these days?

Interesting that this thread started with a comparison of Gilberto with Altidore at Sunderland.

[Oldtimer]

I'm in favour of selling Gilberto to Europe. That's actually where Gilberto wants to end up, we're just a stepping stone. Plus we actually bought him to train him and sell him for a profit. Good business, and it not just makes $$$ for MLSE but also gets us allocation money to spend on the squad.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Okay, it's been 10 games (including V-cup) and I think enough time has passed that we can begin to have the conversation of what to do with Gilberto.

Do we give him more time? If so are we doing that because of the sunk cost fallacy?
Do we trade/cut him and open up the DP slot?
Or a third option that I haven't considered?

I've been on board with him getting more time to adjust to the league, but after some of the displays my patience is wearing thin. I see a man with 0 confidence and it was especially stark in the 2nd whitecaps game. There was a play where he was running in on goal and rather than take his shot, he cut wide and couldn't finish his chance. Contrast that with Defoe who admittedly is in a different class, but he can create space when being triple teamed and still get a shot off. I'd expect a $1.5m DP to be me more threatening than some of our previous discards.

I do appreciate that he drops deep when pressure is on, but that's not what we paid him for. Wiedeman can do that and Jeremy Brockie/Ryan Johnson/Chad Barrett can run around like a headless chicken and apply pressure up top while not finishing their chances.

He's reminding me of Altidore at Sunderland; if Gilberto can't bag a goal within another month I think we need to cut our losses. It's not like he hasn't had the chances and management knows this. Why else is he being subbed off earlier and earlier these days?

Mind fn blown. Well MartinUtd? We'll check in after Jozy's 10th match I guess to see who could be next!

[Red4ever]

I think Bradley is very good. Gilberto has the ability to be a great scorer, and Laba can do the job with the other we have. In order to have Bradley we have lost two players. One that can do the same job, and One that does a job we need and we have yet to show that Altidore can do (though he likely can)

Bradley maybe better than any single player I don't think though he is better than those two players.

This is quality spin, but you can't isolate the other pieces and other thinking involved in getting Bradley here and just focus on 2 guys. We have to put out the best 11, or at least the best core. I was Laba's biggest fan and felt getting two DP strikers and one midfielder was misguided. Should have been the other way around. That said, it's done and we now have two of the better midfielders talent wise in the league.

Look at it this way, we talk about how Bradley was a little lost with no help in midfield last year, how would Laba have looked in there had we not brought the General in?

[MartinUtd]

I can't believe it's come full circle right like that. Fuck.

If both Altidore and Gilberto are here for the season I hope they bag their first goals early because we have two talented players with massive confidence issues.

[Kaz]

This is quality spin, but you can't isolate the other pieces and other thinking involved in getting Bradley here and just focus on 2 guys. We have to put out the best 11, or at least the best core. I was Laba's biggest fan and felt getting two DP strikers and one midfielder was misguided. Should have been the other way around. That said, it's done and we now have two of the better midfielders talent wise in the league.

Look at it this way, we talk about how Bradley was a little lost with no help in midfield last year, how would Laba have looked in there had we not brought the General in?

The way I see it is, Bradley (based on stuff Vanney has said) felt the need to protect the Backline. Which is why he was feeling so lost. Laba wouldn't have needed that.

He would have been a guy focused on the back and would have run forward when he felt he could, Laba would have played with the team instead of trying to play inspite of the team. In that way I think Bradley cost us points last year.

We now have a Forward that may do well. Though has done poorly (on a poor side) and we don't know how he is going to work out. WIth Have Gilberto who has a strong work rate, and if Altidore dosen't work well in the ball in the back of the next stuff, he will work well in getting Gilberto the ball to put in the back of the net.

And if we have to lose Gilberto for the whole season to put Altidore on the pitch I don't think that is great.


I don't think we would have done any worse last year with Laba over Bradley (in fact we may have done better because Laba would have played his game instead of everyone elses) This year we would have Laba, Gilberto and Giovinco and Defoe would have gone home anyway. If we didn't get Altidore we would have gotten someone else.

[molenshtain]

I think Bradley is very good. Gilberto has the ability to be a great scorer, and Laba can do the job with the other we have. In order to have Bradley we have lost two players. One that can do the same job, and One that does a job we need and we have yet to show that Altidore can do (though he likely can)

Bradley maybe better than any single player I don't think though he is better than those two players.

But Bradley and Laba don't do the same job. Imagine Bradley as less of a Makalele and more like Essien. He could do Laba's job, but he probably wouldn't be as good at it. He's better when he can run wherever he wants link play from the back to front. He'll be much better with a pure no. 6 behind him and a no. 10 in front of him.

[Kaz]

But Bradley and Laba don't do the same job. Imagine Bradley as less of a Makalele and more like Essien. He could do Laba's job, but he probably wouldn't be as good at it. He's better when he can run wherever he wants link play from the back to front. He'll be much better with a pure no. 6 behind him and a no. 10 in front of him.

I don't know who those people are... I'm assuming Hockey... I don't watch sports much. (MLS for some reason caught my attention it is literally the only league I watch of any sport)

Laba could have played DM, we could have brought in other players to play up top with Osorio.. and actually allowed to do what Osorio did in 2013. Which is why I think we would have done better without Bradley than with.

Bradley wants to go forward but doesn't feel he can and tries to do the job of the whole midfield on his own. Laba would have done his job and let other do their jobs, and we would have worked as a team. Which when we did we did well.. that happened most often when Bradley was side lined.

I like Bradley I think if he settles down he will do wonderful things for us.. more than Laba could.. but I don't believe he does the job is such a fantasical way that Laba couldn't to a perfectly fine job as a DM with an ability to move forward.

I also don't think Bradley is worth both Laba and Gilberto.. I mean it is mute now... but if you told me that to get Bradley we had to give up both players... I would't have been on board. Of Course no one knew that was going to happen. So now.. Bradley better live up to the hype because now he has cost us two players.

[brad]

The way I see it is, Bradley (based on stuff Vanney has said) felt the need to protect the Backline. Which is why he was feeling so lost. Laba wouldn't have needed that.

He would have been a guy focused on the back and would have run forward when he felt he could, Laba would have played with the team instead of trying to play inspite of the team. In that way I think Bradley cost us points last year.

We now have a Forward that may do well. Though has done poorly (on a poor side) and we don't know how he is going to work out. WIth Have Gilberto who has a strong work rate, and if Altidore dosen't work well in the ball in the back of the next stuff, he will work well in getting Gilberto the ball to put in the back of the net.

We also don't know how Gilberto would work out this year. It's possible he'd have a much better season, and it's possible that he'll have similar production to last. I like the guy, I'd like to see him for another year, but it's far from a given that he'd be off the charts good this year.

And if we have to lose Gilberto for the whole season to put Altidore on the pitch I don't think that is great.

All depends on how Altidore pans out - pure speculation at this point. But past evidence in this league is failure to score in the EPL (or even in the lower divisions in England) has no bearing on ability to score in the MLS. There are players that have done average to poor in those leagues that have done exceedingly well over here.

I don't think we would have done any worse last year with Laba over Bradley (in fact we may have done better because Laba would have played his game instead of everyone elses) This year we would have Laba, Gilberto and Giovinco and Defoe would have gone home anyway. If we didn't get Altidore we would have gotten someone else.

Last year was last year, it's done and dusted. This year is what matters now. And in Bradley, Giovinco we have two players with very high level experience linking up play. That has the potential to be massive.

And one final thought - did you consider that having an Ex-Roma player also in his prime in our midfield might very well have factored into Giovinco's decision to come? I'm not saying it did, but it wouldn't be a stretch to think it might have.

[Oldtimer]

Whether Major League Soccer provides its teams with a fourth Designated Player spot in 2015 is inconsequential. Gilberto will be moved for the right price, a well-placed source confirmed to the Sun, adding the Reds have multiple "good offers" for the Brazilian from outside MLS.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/01/25...gins-this-week

I have no problem with this. he never wanted to stay here long-term, we're just a stepping stone. We bought him with plans to sell at a profit.

[RealG-TFC]

As long as it's outside MLS. Can't stand to be burned by another visiting former player every week.

[Yohan]

http://esportes.opovo.com.br/app/esp...mos-dias.shtml

[Richard]

http://esportes.opovo.com.br/app/esp...mos-dias.shtml

According to the article we either paid $3.3 million for him, or that's the fee we get.

[Jack]

According to the article we either paid $3.3 million for him, or that's the fee we get.

We paid that.

[MartinUtd]

(From the Off-season player thread - trying not to derail conversation there)

Show me a nice striker and I'll show you someone that doesn't score often. These guys come with attitude more than any other position.

I don't see the self belief as the problem. He worked hard on the field. If we heard something different about training or his general attitude towards being here I might criticize, but we haven't seen much in that regard. He's not the only one on the squad to clash with Defoe.

I will give just about anybody a pass on fitness under the previous managment. Everything we heard slip through the cracks made them sound like a bunch of rank amateurs stuck in the past when it comes to training.

I just see it as him not having a strong start and TFC taking the out rather than potentially see his value go even lower. Hard to argue with that.

But he arrived out of shape while talking a big game. That's not really management's fault is it?

[Fort York Redcoat]

With Formica Atomica arriving early it makes it more of a possibility we've seen the last of Gila.

[anto7]

Tweeted this morning by Brad Humber, not sure who he is, and retweeted by Ives

@djcuse: Gilberto will make his official move to Vasco in Brazil from Toronto FC later on today or Tuesday. #TFC

[Areathrasher]

Tweeted this morning by Brad Humber, not sure who he is, and retweeted by Ives

@djcuse: Gilberto will make his official move to Vasco in Brazil from Toronto FC later on today or Tuesday. #TFC

I think he is basing that off comments Gilbertos agents made at the weekend saying a deal should be done Monday/Tuesday.

Given Vasco's president has said that a deal may be too expensive for them, I wouldn't be counting my chickens just yet.

[MKR]

what? i had no idea that the wheels are even in motion for gilberto to go elsewhere. That's a shame.

[OgtheDim]

Until I see something from one of Davidson, Molinaro, Wheeler, Jacks, Larson or Armen....I discount any report.

None of them have chimed in on this.

[OgtheDim]

In that vein

John Molinaro ‏@JohnMolinaro 1h1 hour ago Bez on Gilberto: "He's still a #TFC player. We're exploring our options and things can change pretty quickly."

[Wince]

things can change pretty quickly.

i.e. the CBA might bring a 4th DP.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Tweeted this morning by Brad Humber, not sure who he is, and retweeted by Ives

@djcuse: Gilberto will make his official move to Vasco in Brazil from Toronto FC later on today or Tuesday. #TFC

Keeping an eye out today...

[ManUtd4ever]

A short term loan would be wise at this point pending the outcome of the new CBA. If Gilberto rejoins the club at some point this season, it will be icing on the cake.

[Areathrasher]

https://translate.google.com/transla...529&edit-text=
https://translate.google.com/transla...tml&edit-text=
https://translate.google.com/transla...iro&edit-text=

Gils agent saying a resolution should come today. Google Translate isn't really clear, Vasco to pay a loan fee but TFC will pay some of his wages?

[ManUtd4ever]

If we retain salary in a loan deal, I assume it counts against the cap?

[PopePouri]

If we retain salary in a loan deal, I assume it counts against the cap?

Most likely they'll cover the DP cap hit plus more. So no.

Similar to De Guzman when he went to Dallas.

[Areathrasher]

Not sure tbh but I'd be inclined to say no given he isn't being loaned or traded to another MLS team.