Or Urruti, who looked lost at Portland (and that's probably why Nelsen moved him, which is disconcerting) last year but has four goals this year and looks dangerous pretty much every time he touches the ball.Originally Posted by Areathrasher
Or Urruti, who looked lost at Portland (and that's probably why Nelsen moved him, which is disconcerting) last year but has four goals this year and looks dangerous pretty much every time he touches the ball.
Not sure what the point is? It means they are trained at top clubs, with top coaches, playing around top players.
If you don't think that makes a difference, than I'm curious to know why you feel Toronto FC's training environment is at the same level of training and coaching as these clubs?
As for your list -
For starters Saborio wasn't named as a DP until after a successful first MLS season that saw him score 14 goals that year
Valeri was at Porto - so that falls in my arguments favour of being trained at a top club
Laba, Moales and Diaz are all cheaper than Gilberto and have made quicker adjustments to the league and made impacts on the league faster than he has.
Also - I don't really follow any of these guys through their time in MLS, but just doing a quick search and seeing how they did in their first year and they all had pretty successful starts in the MLS. By the end of the season these guys were leaders in many categories earning weekly accolades along the way.
So yes, some of them did have similar backgrounds to Gilberto - the only difference being they adjusted quicker to the MLS and been more successful much quicker than he has been.
So now that you have mentioned these guys and thier similar career paths - why hasn't he blossomed yet like they had?
I guess what you are saying is Nelsen is the reason he isn't scoring.
But on the flip side Nelsen isn't the reason he is doing everything else well?
Trying to figure out what the idea of this post is.
That's what I think too.
Yes, there was ice put on his back immediately after he was subbed
Gilberto scored a slick tip-in last night in Fifa 14. Expect more this Friday.
So top clubs, top coaches and top players don't exist in South America? That was the crux of my original point, you're writing off players and casting aspersions that they are lesser compared to ones that come or have played in Europe. I mean Diego Valeri spent a year at Porto and played 12 games. What was more important in his development, 10 years at Lanus where he was club captain or a year in Portugal.
Mauro Diaz cut his teeth at River Plate. River Plate not a top club??? Get out of here.
Internacional, where Gilberto came from, that has developed and sent players to AC Milan, Chelsea and Spurs in recent years, not a top club??? C'mon.
Maybe because he has only played 7 games...Laba was called by some as a waste of money and a DP spot after his first few performances last season, wonder what they would say now.So now that you have mentioned these guys and thier similar career paths - why hasn't he blossomed yet like they had?
Tim Cahill was Millwall's leading scorer in 2003/04 and a few others; Clint Dempsey was Fulham's leading scorer in 4 season. Were they brought in to do other things, sure, but they wouldn't make the money they are making if they weren't expected to score goals as well.
I'm usually a charitable person. As a Spurs fan, I watched the Soldado saga unfold. I'm prepared to give him another season. He had 11 goals in 36 games in all comps. But only two came in open PL play, four from pens (well-taken, mind). Still, played a sound game overall and set up a few goals or scoring chances with some lovely, intuitive passes. You can see he has something to offer and merits another go-round. He clearly has the backing of his team mates and the fans have picked up on that and cut him some slack.
Gilberto does the back tracking and has shown some nice touches to make fine plays and create chances. He's had a little bit of bad luck, but he's not showing the instinctive ability we need to see. Just watch the Game In 6 highlight reel and see that chronic goal mouth miss in the first half. Wide open goal, ball comes to him at the back post and he's right there to get a touch on the ball, but has his foot askew and it sails wide.
Not as bad a miss as Bradley Wright-Phillips hilarious balloon shot later on, but we're seeing one or two of these every game from Gilberto. He makes good decisions and gets into good scoring positions and then fluffs it. There's been more than enough time to overcome the pre-season injury factor. A couple of more games like this and it will be a real concern for Nelsen and Bezbachenko.
I think this argument got a little off track lol. My point is that Gilberto is taking up one of our 'DP' slots and Bradley and Defoe (i would hope) are going nowhere. So if we want to bring in another player as talented as Bradley or Defoe than we have to dump Gilberto. If he wasn't a DP than i would totally be patient with him because there is definitely talent there. I just don't think you can be patient with a DP....especially when there will be some solid free agents like Cambiasso and Ferdinand that will be out of contract in 2 weeks. But with all our DP slots taken we can't even think of that as a possibility.
It cracks me up that the guy is unquestionably spitting the bit, but pointing that out is being called a character flaw.
All this nuanced discussion of backtracking, hustle, getting chances ... whatever.
Napoleon famously said that he only promoted lucky field commanders to be generals.
Sure, it could turn around, Gilberto may get on track, but that is not the way to bet it, I am afraid.
Last edited by ensco; 05-20-2014 at 06:20 PM.
What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.
^Well said.
why would even consider bringing in players that A. we don't need and B. are way pass their prime
I've been scoring goals left right and centre with him in fifa 14.
How would you have bet it if the question was about Danny Koevermans?
He started the 2012 campaign with just 1 goal in 8 games.
Or DeRo's 2011 MVP/Golden Boot season. Didn't score for NY till game 9 that year. Left NY with just 2 in 13 games.
It's a long season.
@KurtLarSUN: Gilberto ended training today with a fantastic flying side-volley that beat Konopka. Dude can score. I've seen it. I promise. #TFC
Dero had proven he could score in this league. In fact, I would bet he pots a few this year.
Koevermans, OK but you are talking about the first 10 games of that 2012 team, jeez, that team was unspeakably bad. What about all the guys who came to MLS, didn't score after 10 games, and didn't turn it around. There have to be dozens.
Gilberto is getting more time and space because of Defoe and Bradley. Think about that.
Last edited by ensco; 05-20-2014 at 06:59 PM.
What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.
OK this reminds me of Barrett. There was always someone going on about the latest amazing goal from Barrett in today's practice.
In case I am not clear about this, I want to be wrong. But I am a realist.
Last edited by ensco; 05-20-2014 at 07:00 PM.
What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.
Although they are past their prime, they would still be stars in the MLS. I mean a Cambiasso and Bradley partnership in midfield would just be dynamite but there's loads of players out there.....i was just giving some examples.
I believe the comment from Larson was totally tongue in cheek and I posted it to lighten the mood around here a little
This is it, and me and Scott, discussed it in another thread. yes both Barrett and Gilberto are not finishing, but to me and Scott, they looked completely different, doing it. One gilberto just seems a touch off, while Barrett, just seemed to be forcing it.
A season is a long time. I love what I see from Gilberto, he has everything I like to see in a 9, expect so far the most important one. SO I would not give him a full season, but I have to believe that he will start scoring soon.
the TFC plan has always been 2 DP strikers and a DP mid; why pay cambiasso when you could have a guy like laba...we have done the old DP too many times and the reoccurring theme is injuries
I never said or implied that. You are just trying to put words into my mouth to try and prove your point...\however in doing so you have just made my case even stronger!
Again, putting words in my mouth. River plate is a huge club so he can be added to my list of guys who have been trained with top clubs
Yet another example of you trying to make a point by putting words into my mouth that were never there.
But this brings us back to my point - Since he does have a similar background to these players why hasn't he done anything yet?
I was one of the guys who praised Laba during his initial time here. You could see what he had to offer because he was doing his job and he only got better at it as time went on.
Maybe because he has only played 7 games...Laba was called by some as a waste of money and a DP spot after his first few performances last season, wonder what they would say now.
Gilberto should be scoring goals and he isn't. He was brought in to score goals. That is his job. If he doesn't start scoring at an accelerated rate and is in the top 10 goal scorers by the end of the season, then his worth should be questioned. A DP striker who can't score goals - that's what he is right now. Not sure why it's hard to see that.
When Defoe went down with an injury we had a DP striker who wasn't scoring goals - so why exactly did \TFC pick him up if not to score goals?
ALL THE PLAYERS YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR POST - WITH SIMILAR FOOTBALL EXPERIENCE AND TRAINING (thanks for that btw) HAVE ADJUSTED TO MLS FASTER THAN HE HAS - SO WHY ISN'T HE ABLE TO CONVERT ON SITTERS IN FRONT OF THE NET? WHAT IS THERE TO ADJUST TO IF YOU ARE GETTING THE CHANCES BUT CAN'T FINISH THEM OFF?????
You have to give him the whole season though...The Bradley absence factor is big - whomever we bring in as another winger is big.
You have to exhaust all your excuses before you get rid of him. Make sure he has a full team for a consistent amount of games before deciding if he fits.
Nope
Here is what you said
"Keep in mind Gilberto is only 24 years old and hasn't been taught the higher quality aspects of football like Dempsy/Defoe/Martins/Blanco/Bradley/Angel or many of the other high profiled DP's of the past. These guys learned the game on the biggest stages the world has to offer before coming to MLS and being considered DP quality."
If that isn't a knock on Gilberto's background, I don't know what is.
And I don't know why you are asking me why he hasn't adjusted. I never said anything about adjusting to the league. He doesnt need to adjust to the league, he just needs to hit the back of the net.
To my eyes, he is an MLS DP level player that has been unlucky with his finishing. I mean, if his strike against Columbus goes in instead of off the bar, are we even having this conversation?
Here's a highlight reel from days at Inter and Sport Recife
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Z8RJLrUgo
He finishes in the video from similar positions that we have seen him miss from. He's just been unlucky.
From what I saw in that video, it's pretty clear to me that his game has translated well to MLS. The finishing, which he is clearly capable of, has just been missing.
The goals will come.
Last edited by Areathrasher; 05-20-2014 at 09:41 PM.
and Defoe game winning goal vs DC United, wasnt a rebound to defoe, gilberto received his own rebound and then layed it off to defoe
Last edited by DinamoTFC; 05-20-2014 at 09:46 PM.
Blanco played most of his football in Mexico/South America....He also played on the Mexican National Team. I specifically pointed him out because I was trying to make sure I covered the south american big clubs as well - You did a great job of helping me prove my point by pointing out other big SA clubs that other successful MLS DP's have come from.
He was at Internacional for what looks like 3 seasons but he was loaned out twice by the club for substantial portions of 2 seasons.
At Inter he was a sub player who started occasionally. No international appearances - 1 decent season while on loan and he gets a DP contract?
Blanco never played in South America. Only Mexico and Spain. The only thing those players have in common is that they all played in Europe.
And Angel had MAJOR problems setting in at Villa before he started scoring for them, maybe it could act as a lesson for some...
Last edited by Areathrasher; 05-20-2014 at 11:24 PM.
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