Gilberto Ongoing Discussion Thread

[Canary10]

He's been coming off the bench half the year and has barely played with Defoe at all. They basically decided he was done after 7 appearances. Jackson has 3 goals as a defensive winger I suppose he's great then? Everyone here hates him although I actually do like him better than the start of the year. Earnshaw scored goals last year but was trash. Gilberto clearly has quality my only wish was a fair assessment as opposed to this musical chairs nonsense. At least the regime is admitting failure though by benching him.

I think Nelsen has gone with Moore since Gilberto was hurt because it was largely working. Defoe was scoring goals. If Gilberto had done something against KC, he might have won that spot back for DC, but he didn't. Now that we've had a few less than stellar offensive games I think he probably does, and should, start Gilberto again with Defoe for Montreal. I don't think everyone hates him. If anything, I think he gets way more benefit of the doubt than anyone else on the team given his production.

[burlington Red]

He's been coming off the bench half the year and has barely played with Defoe at all. They basically decided he was done after 7 appearances. Jackson has 3 goals as a defensive winger I suppose he's great then? Everyone here hates him although I actually do like him better than the start of the year. Earnshaw scored goals last year but was trash. Gilberto clearly has quality my only wish was a fair assessment as opposed to this musical chairs nonsense. At least the regime is admitting failure though by benching him.

I think the problem is he doesn't click with Defoe, that was evident pretty early on. The thing a lot of people are forgetting is that in Gilberto's one good season, he played up top a lot on his own. He attacked early balls in from his full backs. You can see why that role would suit him. Unfortunately with Defoe he won't get the chance to play in his favoured role. I personally don't see how he would make a good number 10 or an attacking mid, I don't think he has the skillest to effectively play either role. He could certainly do ok in that role, but is that enough for DP. He has ability, no doubt about that, but he can't play in a front two with Defoe, he doesn't have the range of passing needed to play no 10 or attacking mid. I just don't see where we can play him and get the best of his abilities.

[Oldtimer]

he doesn't have the range of passing needed to play no 10 or attacking mid.

i totally disagree with this. He's quite good at setting up goals, just not at finishing himself.

[hulkrogan]

I think he gets way more benefit of the doubt than anyone else on the team given his production.

At any given time we have at least 10 players on the field that can't finish. I'd say he's better than at least 9 of the other non-finishers, so why is he left off the field?

For a striker, he's surprisingly good defensively. He's a good playmaker. He should have more assists than he does, but he never gets to play with Defoe.

Seriously, who's wife did he bang???

[greatwhitenorf]

Correct me if I'm wrong but do we have anyone who speaks Spanish or Portugese on the coaching staff? Doesn't seem like we do. Probably something that should look to address. Seems like most MLS teams have someone on staff who covers that off, often the first assistant

Probably not. But I just pictured the likes of Tom Anselmi watching that episode of The Simpsons and going, 'Adiaga?! Was that his agent I spoke to last week about a transfer? No idea he was that popular.'

I'm having a hard time believing that the culture of the club has changed that dramatically. If you know how Leiweke's work in London got Spurs fans riled up, it's not an unreasonable assumption to make.

[brad]

i totally disagree with this. He's quite good at setting up goals, just not at finishing himself.

Goals, or goal scoring opportunities? He only has 2 assists.

[brad]

I'm not opposed to using him in the #10 slot under the circumstances (the fact that we have him and he is struggling up front). That said, I'm not a fan of using a DP out of position because he is not doing his job in his main one.

[nonc]

Look at how long NE gave Bengtson, they're probably hoping to move him now but at least they gave him a chance. Maidana was being benched early in the year as he adjusted but was Union staff fucking idiots about it? No he showed himself to be one of the best players in the league until he got injured recently. Moore isn't playing better this is just some garbage bigger picture plan from Nelsen and Bez, assuming one isn't fired before they get their next DP to abuse.

[Couchy81]

Moore isn't playing better

Just want to highlight that, the chemistry isn't there with Defoe either. Gilberto at least has a proven free kick ability. He should start this weekend.

[nonc]

Just want to highlight that, the chemistry isn't there with Defoe either. Gilberto at least has a proven free kick ability. He should start this weekend.

Defoe was chewing out Moore so much yesterday haha, the rest of the team too, rightfully. He wasn't good though either.

[Couchy81]

Defoe was chewing out Moore so much yesterday haha, the rest of the team too, rightfully. He wasn't good though either.

Defoe wasn't bad honestly, he was denied service from Oduro and Jackson, either through their shots or mis-timed passing. Frustrating to watch since you know if he just got an onside pass he would bury it. The one good chance was blown PK call.

[ryan]

Defoe wasn't bad honestly, he was denied service from Oduro and Jackson, either through their shots or mis-timed passing. Frustrating to watch since you know if he just got an onside pass he would bury it. The one good chance was blown PK call.

We're a total clusterfuck on offence. We have so many more opportunities but everyone seems to not have a fuckin clue what to do.

Meanwhile, DC has a couple chances early, one was EJ's goal, the second was a quick string of 5 passes around the box leading to a quality shooting chance top middle of the box. We have talent, just no fuckin clue. We need offensive coaching really fucking badly. We have more than enough talent up front, just nobody seems to be on the same page, which certainly doesn't help Gilberto's cause.

[RoyalRed]

Just want to highlight that, the chemistry isn't there with Defoe either. Gilberto at least has a proven free kick ability. He should start this weekend.

Couldnt agree with you more - Jerms got bad attitude, that's why I won't take his name on my shirt. But what do you do when all your goals are coming from "the brilliant asshole?" Yeah he chews people out, but if this was a business, and you were selling WAY more than everyone else and everyone else, instead of trying to get better, was fucking the dog, would you not be upset?

Not saying I agree with him - he's a bit of a prat (see: Gilberto's first) but fuck me, what else have we got?

He's a BLOODY big deal.

/end pun (because he's so little).

[brad]

Regarding Defoe's attitude - that is the risk you take when you sign a DP of that standard. These sort of players have played their entire lives at the top surrounded by quality players.

Adjusting to a lower standard and accepting all that comes with it is part of what a player like Defoe needs to do to survive in a league like ours.

[ag futbol]

i totally disagree with this. He's quite good at setting up goals, just not at finishing himself.

I think both you and the original poster have a point. He can set people up, but I can't see him doing that centrally. His first touch lets him down too many times and when he's on the ball he consistently wants to charge forward, doesn't pace the game the way a savvy #10 would. Doesn't cut balls through but puts them over the top. He could play out on the flank, not sure if it would be at a DP level but it could work. Still think his best position is as a lone striker, second as a wide forward in a 3 forward set...

I would look at the way Vancouver plays Hurtado as a model. He's not trying to play with his back to goal the way we are playing Gilberto. He's running on to passes and using his combination of Speed / Strength to drive defenders nuts. It works well because MLS CBs tend to be slow and lumbering and LB / RB are usually places where teams skimp. Issue being, we are never going to play that way when we have a much superior striker as a first option.

Regarding Defoe's attitude - that is the risk you take when you sign a DP of that standard. These sort of players have played their entire lives at the top surrounded by quality players.

Adjusting to a lower standard and accepting all that comes with it is part of what a player like Defoe needs to do to survive in a league like ours.

I don't think the attitude is unexpected. We're force fed a narritative that these guys are high performers / amazing leaders / great people. First one is true, second one could be depending on the person, third one often completely false. I'm okay with it, I'll take performance over all else, strikers often come with an attitude and are selfish by nature.

Just want to highlight that, the chemistry isn't there with Defoe either. Gilberto at least has a proven free kick ability. He should start this weekend.

I think outside of a traditional beat em' up target man, nobody is going to thrive in that role the way we are playing it currently. It's completely thankless and our strikers as a whole don't get enough service. I think this has been a pretty consistent issue with this team with the exception of when we had Convey--Osorio---Laba---Rey playing, those guys could actually get someone the ball. Unfortunately the movement up top often wasn't great and Rey was a liability defensively / had sticky feet that wouldn't pass the ball often enough. But still, it felt a lot better than our current set does! It had midfielders with more defined qualities as opposed to our "double pulley system" which IMO is complete trash.

Anyway, as far as Gilberto / Moore goes. I think neither is really cutting it. Gilberto has more talent, but Moore seems to understand the role a bit better. Personally I would like us to tweak our formation, but I can't see it happening.

[notthesun]

Gilberto needs to be in a position or system that allows him to run at defenders with the ball more often. He's deceptively fast - deceptive because we've barely been able to see him use his speed. But he's quick, and strong as well.

He had one run down the left wing against D.C. yesterday that started with him right on the touchline in a bad position. He pretty much just powered through, and once he had a bit of space was able to cut in and get a shot off. Once he gets going he looks very dangerous. There's been other instances of him effectively running at defenders as well. His run from midfield to set up Defoe against D.C. at home early in the season comes to mind.

Maybe a wide role in a 3 forward system would work. We could push Oduro up onto the other wing and go 4-3-3. Or make the wide forwards a bit more central if we want to start Moore as well and go 4-3-2-1. Not that Nelsen will consider any of this.

[portu]

Personally I feel bad for Defoe. To be surrounded by lesser quality players that don't pass to you due to either a lack of vision or a lack of ability must be dreadful. We need to get our best players on the field all at once, and by best I mean technically not by pace or strength. Bradley needs to be playing as a regista not as the guy that gets up into the play. IMO we need to be playing a 4-3-3 with a holding midfielder.

Bendik
Bloom - Caldwell - Henry - Morrow

Bradley
Warner
Osorio

Gilberto Defoe Moore

This way we get everyone on the field at once. Moore and Gilberto can switch wings at will, Oso can be the playmaker in interplay, Bradley on the break, Warner running box-to-box linking play and the fullbacks still get up and down the field. Also this way Defoe gets lots of room to make runs.

Gilberto is not a striker he is a winger. He played last season as a striker in a league that offers ample space to strikers to run at goal and that's why he scored so many goals. To get that in MLS he needs to play on the wing. I would actually suggest Nelsen try him at left mid against Montreal but that will never happen.

We also need to realize how stupid we are to let Bradley play wherever he wants because he is a regista pure and simple. He is slow, with a good touch and nice long ball but lacks awareness to successfully engage in interplay as seen several times over the course of the season. If we can get Bradley back in the role he was playing at the beginning of the season than I believe our problems are solved defensively.

Again, I would love to see Nelsen play our best technical players together all at once.

[Pookie]

^ you feel bad for Defoe?

There is a lot that can be said about that one. Not the least of which was that it was his choice. I suspect it will be moot as both sides need to or at least should exit from the deal for a variety of reasons within the next two years. Defoe's England dreams and our risk/return over the out years being the prime variables.

Rest of your post was insightful and can't say I disagree.

[burlington Red]

a few weeks ago esp after USA V Mexico per WC friendly, people were calling for Bradley to be played in a more attacking mid role. Now it is the exact opposite, we are calling for him to play in the role he was bought for.
Same thing with Gilberto, flavour of the month is to see him play number 10, even though he has no experience at all in that role. If he does well in that role in next game, then happy days, but all this talk of his great link up play and assists is becoming a bit of an urban myth. I believe it was the first home, where he had a shot and keeper saved it and Defoe knocked in rebound. My section were going nuts about Gilberto's assist, to me that's not an assist, but it's indictitive of the way we all want him to succeed.
Scouting on him wasn't great. He played in Brazil primarily in 4-2-3-1 formation. He was the lone striker, the focal point up front. He didn't create goals, he was their goalscorer. Defoe is also a goalscorer.You can see why that partnership was never really going to click.

[Canary10]

We're spending a lot of time changing the formation around, moving other players into other roles, etc to fix the problem of one player. At some point you screw up all the rest of the team trying to fix the one problem. Burlington Red is right, if you look at the goals he scored last year, Gilberto was played as a poacher primarily. He's not going to get that with Defoe here. We could try him in a 4-4-1-1, which I think would have the least impact on the rest of the team. See how that goes. Otherwise, instead of trying to fix a problem by creating a bunch of other problems, maybe it's time to just chop the problem....

[Derko]

i totally disagree with this. He's quite good at setting up goals, just not at finishing himself.

Agreed, I saw 3 or 4 very good long passes to Jackson, whom couldn't finish in the KC game, Yes Defoe would have finished them, but then again, Gilberto wouldn't have been on the field if Defoe would have been playing. It would have been Moore with Defoe.

[jloome]

He played in Brazil primarily in 4-2-3-1 formation. He was the lone striker, the focal point up front. He didn't create goals, he was their goalscorer. Defoe is also a goalscorer.You can see why that partnership was never really going to click.

Most of his career in Brazil he played as a wide forward in a 4-3-3. They moved him up top alone because of injury, despite questions about his inconsistency. He flourished, but Brazilian league defending can be pretty porous.

I think he's in the wrong system for his skillset. He's a powerful forward and should either play wide left, so he can cut in on his right foot and run at players one-on-one, or as a target forward laying off the ball and playing with his back to goal, trying to get the odd space to shoot as well.

[jloome]

Y,know, we can't play a 433 because Defoe's not suited to it; we can't play a 442 because Gilberto's not a midfielder and doesn't seem like much of a striker,

Maybe we should play a narrow diamond, put Gilberto at the tip of it:

---Defoe----Oduro
-------Gilberto
---Jackson Osorio
----- Bradley
Morr.-Henry-Caldwell-Bloom

[Richard]

Maybe he should be sold, reading all these comments makes me wonder if Nelsen is going adapt to his playstyle. If he does, Defoe probably wont be the centre piece, and we know that wont happen. Either Gilberto changes his game or he remains inefective with a pairing with Defoe, who knows really, this is a funny sport.

[nonc]

Gilberto needs to be in a position or system that allows him to run at defenders with the ball more often. He's deceptively fast - deceptive because we've barely been able to see him use his speed. But he's quick, and strong as well.

He had one run down the left wing against D.C. yesterday that started with him right on the touchline in a bad position. He pretty much just powered through, and once he had a bit of space was able to cut in and get a shot off. Once he gets going he looks very dangerous. There's been other instances of him effectively running at defenders as well. His run from midfield to set up Defoe against D.C. at home early in the season comes to mind.

Maybe a wide role in a 3 forward system would work. We could push Oduro up onto the other wing and go 4-3-3. Or make the wide forwards a bit more central if we want to start Moore as well and go 4-3-2-1. Not that Nelsen will consider any of this.

Although 4-2-3-1 is becoming a lot more common I have much affinity for the 4-3-2-1 christmas tree. I recall Fonseca using it to perfection in Olympic qualifying where Canada beat the US. It is a forgiving formation and not that demanding. Very easy to switch to 4-1-3-2 or 4-1-4-1 in attack. The key is solid CB and DM play which we don't have at the moment, but when it's all going well you just funnel play away from goal and allow low percentage crossing at best. The way TFC played in DC it was like they were facing the christmas tree the genius of Nelsen.

[Oldtimer]

Y,know, we can't play a 433 because Defoe's not suited to it; we can't play a 442 because Gilberto's not a midfielder and doesn't seem like much of a striker,

Maybe we should play a narrow diamond, put Gilberto at the tip of it:

---Defoe----Oduro
-------Gilberto
---Jackson Osorio
----- Bradley
Morr.-Henry-Caldwell-Bloom

Doesn't Nelsen prefer diamonds? I could see this.

[jloome]

Doesn't Nelsen prefer diamonds? I could see this.

Be all sorts of dangerous having those four feeding two guys up front who are that fast. To me, it seems the best use of our resources. Gets around the problem of having to use Defoe or another striker outside, plays to our strengths at quick play, and forces us to shift field as a unit to defend.

[Shakes McQueen]

^ you feel bad for Defoe?

There is a lot that can be said about that one. Not the least of which was that it was his choice. I suspect it will be moot as both sides need to or at least should exit from the deal for a variety of reasons within the next two years. Defoe's England dreams and our risk/return over the out years being the prime variables.

Rest of your post was insightful and can't say I disagree.

I'd keep Defoe around until the end of next season, and then consider flipping him to a European team. Maybe one more season (or closure of the transfer window) beyond that, depending on how he (and his legs) look at that point. Maybe even an MLS team, if the price is right.

[Areathrasher]

Midfield and attack wise I'd like us to set up like.

Bradley - Warner

Jackson - Osorio - Gilberto

Defoe

In a 4-2-3-1

[TFC07]

I think 4-3-3 is best formation to get most of players' strength, so I will go with this line up:

----------Bendik-----------
RB----Caldwell---Henry---Morrow
---Osorio---Bradley---Jackson
----Oduro-----Defoe-----Gilberto