Originally Posted by trane
I needed a good laugh tonight. Thank you!
I needed a good laugh tonight. Thank you!
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Gotta whole heartedly agree
My suspicion is that Gilberto is seeing reduced time since he is not quite 100% fit. At least I hope that's the case. I agree with everyone who has said we are much more dangerous on attack with him on the pitch...
I think he was brought in as the second half of a dynamic duo to play off of Defoe.
If this season has proven anything it's that without Defoe - we have no scoring threat. Without Defoe no one will score.
Gilberto was suppose to be the other goal scorer and he hasn't done that.
Who brings in a million dollar striker to not score goals????
..Yes
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Who prematurely benches a 24yo DP with a solid track record in a great league, possibly even looking for an exit strategy for him, after just giving up Laba and millions to get him here. You either had to move him right away to retain Laba who was doing great, or give him a proper look. Right now it's setting up like the sort of knee-jerk stupidity and half measure we thought this regime was going to avoid.
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I think you're misremembering the timeline here. Gilberto was the first DP we brought in this winter - Defoe came after. Bradley was a last minute addition, that presumably necessitated the Laba trade.
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Umm this is all wrong. We gave up Laba to bring in Bradley.
As for a knee jerk reaction...what knee jerk reaction are you talking about? The guy hasn't been performing. So he comes off the bench in order to hopfully change his fortunes. This is done all over the world with both unproven and proven players.
I'd rather this approach as oppose to what other regimes here at TFC have done - (see Chad Barrett) - play a guy for years and hope he comes around.
Guys need to perform otherwise they need to go.
As you have mentioned - he's a 24year DP from a proven league and solid track record - he should have at least more goals than a guy who hasn't played on this team in months. We are not talking about a 20 year kid making his way up.
Under the post Kevin Payne regime, sometimes they go because they aren't the marquee ticket selling name that ensco highlights.
How good would Urutti look as an option right now?
In the world of chances, he never got one here. Gilberto seems to be following in his footsteps, albeit with a slightly larger cup of coffee while in town.
That is exactly my point though, he's been replaced by a career disappointment with an MLS ceiling no higher than Barrett. Gilberto is worthy of starting because he has shown to be a superior player despite the lack of goals. He creates and facilitates, which was always half of his job anyway. Goals will come for him but maybe not with TFC. Not playing DPs is admission of mismanagement. And if Nelsen is upset he showed up his savior with that free kick debacle he should just get over it.
I remember, I just mean that Laba didn't stand a chance of staying after the Bradley surprise, because front office was never going to swallow any pride and risk looking temporarily silly by moving their new signing Gilberto, even if it was the pragmatic thing to do. Now after all that effort and smoke and mirrors he's being benched, it's bullshit is all I'm saying a vision clear as mud. Not playing your DP is disturbing on many levels.
SEVERAL cups of coffee. And Urriti would look great if he could get the exact service he was getting on his scoring streak. Can we gaurantee that?
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Who's saying Nelsen is punishing Gilberto at all? Between his lack of production (which is more than half his job) an injury there's a case for him to sit and be used sparingly.
Moving Gilberto was pragmatic but sitting him while he's struggling isn't? And after moving Urruti after his 20mins here I don't think it was pride that prevented keeping Laba.I remember, I just mean that Laba didn't stand a chance of staying after the Bradley surprise, because front office was never going to swallow any pride and risk looking temporarily silly by moving their new signing Gilberto, even if it was the pragmatic thing to do. Now after all that effort and smoke and mirrors he's being benched, it's bullshit is all I'm saying a vision clear as mud. Not playing your DP is disturbing on many levels.
You blame for this players situation is pretty top-heavy. I think there's plenty of it (blame) that can go around for moves of management but this players output or lack thereof isn't one of them.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Comparing Chad Barrett to Gilberto tells me that we live in opposite football universes. Gilberto is a far more skilled players, that creates, and contributes to goals on a regular basis, all Chad Barrett had was work rate, and Gilberto has the same work rate. When Gilberto is in we have a better attack.
Gilberto is a good player. But it doesn't matter anymore. There are 100 good players in MLS, 90 aren't DPs, and the 10 that are need to sell tickets.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
The comparison people keep making to Dempsey is laughable. Dempsey proved himself over many years in one of the most difficult leagues in the world, if not the most difficult. Everyone knew it was just a matter of time in his case. The same cannot be said for Gilberto. He had 1-1 1/2 decent seasons in the Brazilian league (which people are trying to figure out how to "fix" after the World Cup). He didn't really prove himself even in that league. It's not smart money to take, what, a $5 million flyer on an unproven guy. If his contract was in Urruti territory, fine. There is much better we could have done with $5 million.
Yes Gilberto is far more skilled than Chad Barrett. There is no question about it.
However both were brought in to do a job - Score goals. And both failed to do so on a regular basis.
I wouldn't say that Gilberto has contributed more than Barrett has. Maybe he's done it with more flare, but Gilberto has done pretty much the same job that Barrett did in 2009/2010.
- Both guys can win the ball higher up the pitch;
- Both tracked back deeper to help on the defence and start counters, however because they were so far back, most counters usually died due to lack of options up front.
- Both guys had their fair share of chances on goal
- Both guys consistently could not finish in front of the net - in many instances missing by inches.
- Both guys assist the odd goal
At the end of the season, When we are looking at the standing and where we are - No one will care that Gilberto almost scored on many occasions. It won't matter. What will matter is that dozens of points were lost due to lack of scoring. One guy is scoring most of our goals. That is not good. What happens the rest of the time when he has his off days? That is what Gilberto was brought in to do. Score those extra goals that we need to win.
No one is arguing Gilberto's quality - but as we speak right now, is it really that much better than what we already have? What is he doing to change the match in the way a DP should change the match? I'm not seeing much difference. Sure he adds a bit of quality in the middle of the pitch, but is it enough for him to be paid what he is being paid?Gilberto and Defoe are paid to score. Bradley, Oduro, Osorio, Jackson are paid to move the ball up the pitch and service our strikers - goals from these guys are added value. But at the end of the day, strikers are paid to score. that's why he was brought in.
Luke Moore has more goals than Gilberto in less games
Issey Nakajima-Farran has more goals than Gilberto in less games
We need to win now. We need to score goals now.
Until he proves he can be a striker and score goals - I say leave him as a super sub. If he can't score coming off the bench when everyone else is tired, then his quality may not be all that useful.
I get your idea as playing him in that number 10 role. But is he really the best option for that? Is there no other player in the world that we can get who is actually trained to play that role for the price we are paying? I see a lot of time being spent trying to get him into that roles mindset. You're telling me we can't find a 24year old number 10 who could jump into that role and start playing it the way it should be played right away?
Anyways - he won't/shouldn't go anywhere unless they can find a buyer for him to recoup the $$ and/or they find a replacement who is hands down a better option and can make an impact right away and for the future. That is what they need - not an old guy 2 year replacement.
Last edited by jabbronies; 07-18-2014 at 11:05 AM.
When was the last time Gilberto played a full game? (May 23rd)
So we are making a decision on a guy that has scored 1 goal in his last 73 minutes of play time.
Honestly I think since May 31st having played 73 minutes and scored 1 goal, isn't bad. How he got that goal may not be great, but we not actually let him heal, and see what he can do with three full games.
what? that was one of the greatest TFC goals of all time.
In fairness, people are assessing him based on 12 games or so, not just the minutes he played since he scored.
Right 8 of which were at the beginning of the season, without any real pre-season, in a new league where it isn't uncommon for players to take a while (Clint Dempsey for example)
The last 4 were all subs that amount to 73 minutes or so
So that last 73 minutes amounts to.
1 Goal
1 Assist
5 shots
1 on Target.
Lets actually give him a chance.
Bradley Wright-Phillips last season 1 goal from 4 starts and 7 played and 307 minutes appeared at age 29. This season 16 Goals from 1414 minutes.
We don't know how he will do over all.. but I kinda want to see a healthy Gilberto, with service, playing a full game to see how he actually does. We haven't seen that yet, and if we don't soon;, well he won't be here too long..
I won't consider him a flop till the last third of the season (game 22/23), he may be moving in that directions.. though I have a hard time saying he is. We have seen a little bit of brilliance.
If he had played 9 games, where game 9 was 1 goal and 1 Assist with only 5 shots.. I think we'd be saying well lets see how he does now. He needs a full game.
Last edited by Kaz; 07-18-2014 at 01:22 PM.
Met a Brazilian couple last night, and the gentleman was a huge international fan and didnt realize Gilberto was sold to TFC.
Said he was the exact same way there (and on loan to portugeusa), amazing talent and ability but just couldn't finish often enough. would miss by "just that much"
I agree with giving him the rest of the season. Given this team's history, Defoe's bound to get injured and if all we have left to rely on is Dero, Moore, and Weids then we're toast. There's really no rush. Besides you never know, he might start lighting it up at the end of the season/playoffs when we'll arguably need it the most.
Ugh, well, he sure has kept that up here as well. The amount of times he was close by "just that much" would have gotten him 10 by now. Shame.
Gilberto vs. Moore.
They bring different things to the team, forsure. Gilberto definitely is more dangerous of the two and 10/10 defenders you ask would rather go up against Moore. However, Moore brings a role player attitude to our front line, playing his game to simply help optimize Defoe's contributions. I like that Moore insists on getting the ball played to his feet and he is very neat in hold up play and dragging defenders around the field. He also rarely turns the ball over and overall contributes to our number one asset in JD (he does open up channels for him). He caters to your big asset and it has proven to work. Good.
Gilberto is an asset of his own. He brings explosiveness to the front line and causes damage to backlines. Having another asset in the team beside Defoe spoils us with options, which can be good, but also like we have seen, can be bad. These two assets have yet to show any glimpses of optimizing each others play, and so it is nice to have two, but...An argument can be made that we should just use our resources to optimize our greatest asset in JD.
I think this is simply what it comes down to. And a lot of people on here just suggest that to fix the problem Gilberto needs to stand down and instead of being an asset, he should simply work to become that role player that works to optimize JD. I think that is the worst idea, because if all we wanted to do was optimize Defoe, then we already have the answer in Moore.
If Gilberto is in the team, he needs to be asset that he is. It is as simple as that. But, in order for this to work our assets need to be contributing to each other success, or its just not worth having them both. Nelsen has been settling with the strategy of just working to optimize Defoe for the time being (and perhaps due to Gilberto's ongoing injury issues) and it is a fine strategy. I for one hope that in the near future we get Gilberto back out there with Defoe and hopefully they can both contribute as assets. As a team inspired by greatness, why not go big?
I've just taken jloome's post as an example - but a number of us were all requesting that Gilberto be a sub for a few games and come off the bench with energy. Now that Nelson is doing exactly that, we are all complaining that Gilberto isn't getting enough game time!
Us fans are strange people!
I dunno. It's about a $7M mid-field (and backs). You'd think that kind of coin would buy you good service.
Anyways, interesting to me that they traded Urutti… who isn't a Designated Player by the way… to make room for two strikers… one of whom they don't play frequently anymore.
As ensco says, it's about the ticket sales not the football.
How does a virtual unknown who wouldn't be known by 99.9% of the TFC fan base let alone causal fans pass of as a "Marketing Plan B". That's just nonsense. If he sold some tickets and shirts it would be a bonus to TFC.
I believe Bez got him because he was a young player with good skills that could potentially be a star in this league.
Last edited by Richard; 07-18-2014 at 05:01 PM.
The quotes and articles at the time of the Urutti trade reference the fact that TFC was after 2 "name" strikers and that made Urutti expendable.
If TFC were looking for a young player that could potentially be a star in this league there was no need to give Urutti just 37 mins of game action in a season where a playoff spot was not even a dream.
They wanted a name. I was told directly by an influential person in that process that TFC fans deserve an A list type player. Bigger than Koevermans.
And they held season ticket renewals back until those strikers were in place. Was Gilberto Plan A? Probably not. As ensco says, a good plan B.
We are going to bring you goals. Come watch the goals.
Moderator
I don't doubt that the Defoe signing was as much about marketing and selling tickets, as it was about signing a great striker (so were Beckham, and Henry, and most other high profile DPs), but that still doesn't really explain why that made Gilberto a "good Plan B" for similar purposes - a relatively unknown player, in a relatively unknown league (compared to your Serie A or EPL). Unless "Plan B" was a low-key return to competence.
Defoe was a "shock and awe" signing for the fanbase, as much as he was signed for his ability to score. However, I still think Gilberto was just signed as a prudent investment in a young striker, who had performed on a fairly high-level stage. Gilberto got a short story on TSN.ca - Defoe got a cringe-inducing ad campaign, and a double-decker bus.
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
A point that's often missed. I don't see how anybody but a pure banger and a workhorse is going to thrive in that second forward spot the way we play it. There is no consistent platform for that player to do anything but hold up the ball for Defoe and scrap for balls in the box.
Not that I think Giberto hasn't struggled...
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