Gilberto Ongoing Discussion Thread

[InDa_110]

He is is a Flop!!!

Please stop making excuses for him!!

"The refs, the game, the turf, the language, the weather",....just stop!!

He can't finish, he plays like a little bitch looking for calls and going to ground whenever someone is near him, he has no confidence, and expects to be served on a silver platter, and he still can't score.

I watched him especially closely last night, and yes his is a Flop and getting rid of him asap would be a great idea.

As far as tfc's reputation in South America goes.. to that I say who fckn cares!! We've had more than our share of South American and Central American experiments shit the bed on us!! Money talks if we want someone from there, and if it means that players from there don't want to come here then so be it, and let's recruit harder in Europe where our real talent like Bradley and Defoe came from

[MartinUtd]

Maybe we could send him to Mexico with a suitcase full of pesos for Camilo.

Seriously though, he looked off last night, even for him. Some of his shots and headers were wayyyyy off the mark and it wasn't like he was out of position.

[MartinUtd]

Oh and Dempsey & Di Vaio are in a different stratosphere to Gilberto. Those guys were proven at the highest levels, Gilberto was always a wild card.

[Ultra & Proud]

Still liked his defensive work yesterday but his attempts at goal were Barrett level bad. I think the jinx is now affecting his confidence.

[CommradePolski]

The beard lives on! I still believe he will score soon. Im thinking it will be against the piss that is cocklumbus. #beardsforgilberto

[Canary10]

The beard lives on! I still believe he will score soon. Im thinking it will be against the piss that is cocklumbus. #beardsforgilberto

Waiting for Gilberto to score reminds me of my high school years. Every weekend I'd go out thinking, tonight's the night I finally get laid. Then the weekend would be over and yet again I'd be disappointed.

[jabbronies]

Waiting for Gilberto to score reminds me of my high school years. Every weekend I'd go out thinking, tonight's the night I finally get laid. Then the weekend would be over and yet again I'd be disappointed.

I don't really want to ask, but I hope you are not still a virgin, otherwise there's no hope for Gilberto...that doesn't make sense, but it sounded funny in my head lol

[Canary10]

I don't really want to ask, but I hope you are not still a virgin, otherwise there's no hope for Gilberto...that doesn't make sense, but it sounded funny in my head lol

Ha ha. No, but let's just say if we have to wait that long, he'll be out of contract.

[Abou Sky]

For reference:

Marco Di Vaio was brought into the impact as a DP proven product (as he should be with his history). I took him 8 games to score his first goal. He only scored 5 in 17 in his first season and was considered by many to be a flop DP that year. In his second year delivered like a DP and scored 20 in 33 and dragged them to the playoffs.

Dempsy also took some time to start making an impact in the league as well.

Both players come with a lot more experience and higher pedigree than Gilberto. If they did not light the league afire immediately - is it fair to expect Gilberto to?

Your second point about his time being limited is interesting. I won't touch on it from a Football perspective, but I wonder if it is true, regardless of performances. This team made a big deal about signing him, folks have talked extensively about TFC is different now with this new management and how we don't just throw players out without giving them a chance. How we don't "Urutti" players anymore - sign them then move them off right away.

It will be interesting in this regard to see how it pans out...

I know you're right, but good god is it ever frustrating.

[ExiledRed]

For reference:

Marco Di Vaio was brought into the impact as a DP proven product (as he should be with his history). I took him 8 games to score his first goal. He only scored 5 in 17 in his first season and was considered by many to be a flop DP that year. In his second year delivered like a DP and scored 20 in 33 and dragged them to the playoffs.

Dempsy also took some time to start making an impact in the league as well.

Both players come with a lot more experience and higher pedigree than Gilberto. If they did not light the league afire immediately - is it fair to expect Gilberto to?

Your second point about his time being limited is interesting. I won't touch on it from a Football perspective, but I wonder if it is true, regardless of performances. This team made a big deal about signing him, folks have talked extensively about TFC is different now with this new management and how we don't just throw players out without giving them a chance. How we don't "Urutti" players anymore - sign them then move them off right away.

It will be interesting in this regard to see how it pans out...

For more reference.

Marco Di Vaio spent a career playing at clubs like Lazio, Juventus, Parma and Valencia. If a guy like that doesnt score straight away, yeah, you give him time. He doesnt have to prove he's good, and you can be confident that a slump, is just that.

Dempsey too, when he returned, had played for Fulham and Tottenham, not Juventus for sure but he had made a name for himself, that could give you confidence he would find his form.

We dont know what Gilbertos 'form' is. What we are witnessing. could be it, we dont know. Why dont we know? Because Gilberto has made his name playing in a league that top Brazilian players seem to avoid until theyre in their thirties. A league that few people would regard as up there with Italy's Serie A, La Liga or the Prem.

We cannot keep comparing unknowns with elite players. its ridiculous.

[Canary10]

For more reference.

Marco Di Vaio spent a career playing at clubs like Lazio, Juventus, Parma and Valencia. If a guy like that doesnt score straight away, yeah, you give him time. He doesnt have to prove he's good, and you can be confident that a slump, is just that.

Dempsey too, when he returned, had played for Fulham and Tottenham, not Juventus for sure but he had made a name for himself, that could give you confidence he would find his form.

We dont know what Gilbertos 'form' is. What we are witnessing. could be it, we dont know. Why dont we know? Because Gilberto has made his name playing in a league that top Brazilian players seem to avoid until theyre in their thirties. A league that few people would regard as up there with Italy's Serie A, La Liga or the Prem.

We cannot keep comparing unknowns with elite players. its ridiculous.

This is absolutely right I think. We took a flyer on a relatively unknown/unproven guy.

[TFC07]

Gilberto like signing any young DP's are very risky because you never know what you're getting. This is why I find it odd how people here are really negative over signing proven world quality players (like Defoe) not say a thing on young DP's who haven't really proven anything.

I personally give Gilberto more time before I consider him a bust since he's contributing other ways.

[Areathrasher]

For more reference.

Marco Di Vaio spent a career playing at clubs like Lazio, Juventus, Parma and Valencia. If a guy like that doesnt score straight away, yeah, you give him time. He doesnt have to prove he's good, and you can be confident that a slump, is just that.

Dempsey too, when he returned, had played for Fulham and Tottenham, not Juventus for sure but he had made a name for himself, that could give you confidence he would find his form.

We dont know what Gilbertos 'form' is. What we are witnessing. could be it, we dont know. Why dont we know? Because Gilberto has made his name playing in a league that top Brazilian players seem to avoid until theyre in their thirties. A league that few people would regard as up there with Italy's Serie A, La Liga or the Prem.

We cannot keep comparing unknowns with elite players. its ridiculous.

Thats WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY off the mark

[ExiledRed]

Thats WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY off the mark

Really?

If Brazil's serie A was so illustrious, and Gilberto was truly one of their better players last year, he would be in Europe now, not Toronto FC.

Also, find me a Brazil Serie A lifer that is currently on the brazilian national team.

[Areathrasher]

Really?

If Brazil's serie A was so illustrious, and Gilberto was truly one of their better players last year, he would be in Europe now, not Toronto FC.

Also, find me a Brazil Serie A lifer that is currently on the brazilian national team.

Jefferson, Victor and Fred have spent the majority of their careers in Brazil.

Brazilain clubs HAVE to sell their players to European clubs, it's how they survive. My point isn't about how illustrious the league is, it's about your point that they avoid it. They don't. They get their break in the league, play 100 games there or so then move on. It's the Brazilian model.

German clubs were interested in Gilberto before TFC signed him FYI.

[ExiledRed]

Jefferson, Victor and Fred have spent the majority of their careers in Brazil.

Brazilain clubs HAVE to sell their players to European clubs, it's how they survive.

German clubs were interested in Gilberto before TFC signed him FYI.

Jefferson and Victor are backup goalies with very few appearances. Come on.

Leaving Fred, technically not a lifer, who would have spent more time playing in Europe were it not for injury and legal shit.

You're scraping a barrell with those.

If Brazil Serie A sells its best players to Europe because they HAVE to, then the best brazilian players generally dont play in Brazil, correct?

Which german clubs and how interested? There's a big difference between a club showing interest and actually trying to sign a player.

[Areathrasher]

Jefferson and Victor are backup goalies with very few appearances. Come on.

Leaving Fred, technically not a lifer, who would have spent more time playing in Europe were it not for injury and legal shit.

You're scraping a barrell with those.

If Brazil Serie A sells its best players to Europe because they HAVE to, then the best brazilian players generally dont play in Brazil, correct?

Which german clubs and how interested? There's a big difference between a club showing interest and actually trying to sign a player.

And what's any of that got to do with your point that they avoid playing there?

My point isn't about how illustrious the league is, it's about your point that they avoid it. They don't. They get their break in the league, play 100 games there or so then move on. It's the Brazilian model.

[TorontoGooner]

He is not a flop.
Jesus, so quick to judge.
He would be a flop if he wasnt trying, wasnt moving, wasnt competing, wasnt getting chances....but not scoring for a new club, learning the langauge, the City, his teammates.....he is trying. he isnt a flop. For Gods sake, some of you are so quick to label a footballer, no wonder players get sick of this shit.

This. 100%

[brad]

For more reference.

Marco Di Vaio spent a career playing at clubs like Lazio, Juventus, Parma and Valencia. If a guy like that doesnt score straight away, yeah, you give him time. He doesnt have to prove he's good, and you can be confident that a slump, is just that.

Dempsey too, when he returned, had played for Fulham and Tottenham, not Juventus for sure but he had made a name for himself, that could give you confidence he would find his form.

I don't disagree with this. But the point isn't about how much time you give someone (at least not in small sample set like 10 or 11 games). It's that regardless of your pedigree - expecting any player to hit the ground running and start banging on goals right away is not a valid exception. If to took a player of Di Vaio's caliber that long, why should anyone expect a player of lesser caliber like Gilberto to start scoring quicker? Do you think that is a reasonable expectation? Are you advocating that 10 games is enough to evaluate him and make that call that he is not good enough? How many players have we cycled through without giving them a chance?

We could easily build a list of MLS players that came from similar to lower status than Gilberto that started off slowly and ended up being very good MLS players if we really wanted.

We dont know what Gilbertos 'form' is. What we are witnessing. could be it, we dont know. Why dont we know? Because Gilberto has made his name playing in a league that top Brazilian players seem to avoid until theyre in their thirties. A league that few people would regard as up there with Italy's Serie A, La Liga or the Prem.

You are 100% correct about Gilberto being a big unknown. For what it is worth, I wasn't overly wow'd by him when we signed him. But we have him now, so I am giving him a chance.

But regarding your second point about the Brazilian league and it's players - every single member of the current Brazilian National team started their careers in Brazil, most in the league same league we got Gilberto from.

We cannot keep comparing unknowns with elite players. its ridiculous.

To a large extent I agree with this, but I still stand by the point that if an elite player takes time to score in this league, it is unfair to expect players of lesser a pedigree to do better than those elite players out of the gate.

Oh, you also compared elite players to unknowns in your sentence above this one...

[brad]

If anyone is actually interested in why Brazilian players leave Brazil and the state of football in Brazil in general - this is a great read:

http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/fea...all-in-brazil/

[trane]

I have supported Gilberto, but now it is time to put up or shut up. If he does not score in five games, he is a flop, not as a player but as a striker. Half a season is no drought its a dessert, and we are approaching half a season. I did not like what I saw yesterday, but some of it at least was the style of play and partnership with De Ro.

[ExiledRed]

I have supported Gilberto, but now it is time to put up or shut up. If he does not score in five games, he is a flop, not as a player but as a striker. Half a season is no drought its a dessert, and we are approaching half a season. I did not like what I saw yesterday, but some of it at least was the style of play and partnership with De Ro.

thankyou. I was behind him to begin with as well.

I am not a patient person, I will admit that, but I have great instincts for detecting bullshit and problems that are being hidden. Seriously, I used to bullshit and hide problems a lot when i was in my twenties, its called managing.

I think Gilberto has shown that he understands the game, he reads it very well, but his finish is less than acceptable for a DP. Missing open goals time after time is always a red flag.

[ExiledRed]

And what's any of that got to do with your point that they avoid playing there?

Every elite level player in their twenties from Brazil, plays elsewhere.

Im not a rocket scientist but......

[jloome]

thankyou. I was behind him to begin with as well.

I am not a patient person, I will admit that, but I have great instincts for detecting bullshit and problems that are being hidden. Seriously, I used to bullshit and hide problems a lot when i was in my twenties, its called managing.

I think Gilberto has shown that he understands the game, he reads it very well, but his finish is less than acceptable for a DP. Missing open goals time after time is always a red flag.

I think a larger point about his Brazilian career is being ignored: he wasn't a center forward. He played wide forward for two-thirds of his pro games, usually in a 4-3-3 (a traditional winger, in other words) and most of his goals were from shots from the edge of the box or outside.

It was only last season, with injuries up top, that Internacional stopped trying to loan him out and moved him to center forward. Even there, he got as many goals from long shots as headers, and quite a few were back post tap ins against very poor defending.

I've watched a lot of Brazilian football (it was all they showed on TV beside the local product when I was growing up in Angola) and it's better than MLS; but it has pretty shoddy defending sometimes, as do the leagues in Uruguay, Ecuador and Colombia.

I think he's a good player, but not necessary a good scorer. As someone has already noted, most of his goals in Brazil came in bunches, streaks of ten games without one, ten games with one.

Having said that, the overall league there is better. He scored about 1-in-3 over his career in Brazil, but much of that was at lower-level teams in the regional tournaments.

When it comes to assessing a guy, it's very easy to pull the trigger on early poor performance. His movement is really good, his holdup and passing are good and he plays well off defenders' shoulders. But he's not clinical; and that's what we really need up top.

Even if he comes good, I suspect he has the same kind of 10-12 goals per season potential as Maicon Santos, but a better workrate and therefore more likely to achieve it. In MLS, that's a decent, valuable striker. But at the cap max? That's a hard sell at this point.

[jloome]

Every elite level player in their twenties from Brazil, plays elsewhere.

Im not a rocket scientist but......

This point, however, ignores the fact that all the money is in three European leagues. Every elite player in their Twenties from every country in North and South America, plays elsewhere. By Elite, I assume you mean those who can; they all take the money. It doesn't matter what country it is, so it's not really a fair point.

[ExiledRed]

If anyone is actually interested in why Brazilian players leave Brazil and the state of football in Brazil in general - this is a great read:

http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/fea...all-in-brazil/

This article reinforces my point.

Like I said, if Gilberto was elite level, he'd already be in Italy, Spain, Germany or Chelsea.

I would rather have more depth than a DP that isnt worth the money.

[ExiledRed]

This point, however, ignores the fact that all the money is in three European leagues. Every elite player in their Twenties from every country in North and South America, plays elsewhere. By Elite, I assume you mean those who can; they all take the money. It doesn't matter what country it is, so it's not really a fair point.

J, I think we understand each other. I respect yours and ensco's opinions more than anyone else on this board.

What I am saying is that regardless of why their top players leave. They leave. Gilberto ended up here, and because of that, I suspect his quality.

[edit] holy shit, I didnt see your previous post, how did you construct that in such a short time?[edit]

[brad]

The team was never going to buy another elite player in his role though. The plan was always an A+ DP (Defoe), a lower level DP (Gilberto) and Laba.

If we had signed Gilberto instead of another elite DP then I'd agree with the argument. But that was never in the cards.

Still - I never wanted 2 DP strikers.

[molenshtain]

Every elite level player in their twenties from Brazil, plays elsewhere.

Im not a rocket scientist but......

Were you expecting Neymar when we signed Gilberto? I'm having a hard time understanding what your expectations were.

There are tons of very talented players there that A) don't always get called up to Brazil because it's the fucking Brazilian Nation Team and B) don't go to Europe because they don't feel like it, not due to a lack of offers, and tons who would be above average in every league in the world except for the top 5 in Europe(England, Spain, Germany, Italy, France). Just because you don't watch the league and don't pay attention to it doesn't mean it's a league devoid of talented players. It's 100x better than what we watch every week.

Gilberto was supposed to be one of the many players who would be slightly above average in one of those other leagues. Has he show that he can be that yet? No, He hasn't even scored. But he's shown he can do basically everything else. Though I'm worried, I'm not willing to give up on him just yet. I think Having the whole midfield back and healthy after the WC break will be of huge benefit to everyone.

[ExiledRed]

Even if he comes good, I suspect he has the same kind of 10-12 goals per season potential as Maicon Santos, but a better workrate and therefore more likely to achieve it. In MLS, that's a decent, valuable striker. But at the cap max? That's a hard sell at this point.

You know, Santos has been my favourite player behind Dichio. He really was a great addition to this team, and would have scored more goals if he was allowed to play in his position. Winter's treatment of him turned me off Winter. When you have a diamond, you look after it, you dont throw it in a drawer with the other odds and ends.

I agree, Gilberto could very easily be as good as Santos.

I wouldnt pay DP money for either.