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  1. #1
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    Default Gilberto Ongoing Discussion Thread

    Okay, it's been 10 games (including V-cup) and I think enough time has passed that we can begin to have the conversation of what to do with Gilberto.

    Do we give him more time? If so are we doing that because of the sunk cost fallacy?
    Do we trade/cut him and open up the DP slot?
    Or a third option that I haven't considered?

    I've been on board with him getting more time to adjust to the league, but after some of the displays my patience is wearing thin. I see a man with 0 confidence and it was especially stark in the 2nd whitecaps game. There was a play where he was running in on goal and rather than take his shot, he cut wide and couldn't finish his chance. Contrast that with Defoe who admittedly is in a different class, but he can create space when being triple teamed and still get a shot off. I'd expect a $1.5m DP to be me more threatening than some of our previous discards.

    I do appreciate that he drops deep when pressure is on, but that's not what we paid him for. Wiedeman can do that and Jeremy Brockie/Ryan Johnson/Chad Barrett can run around like a headless chicken and apply pressure up top while not finishing their chances.

    He's reminding me of Altidore at Sunderland; if Gilberto can't bag a goal within another month I think we need to cut our losses. It's not like he hasn't had the chances and management knows this. Why else is he being subbed off earlier and earlier these days?

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    Give him more time... Dempsey scored 1 goal in like 12 or 13 games last season and now is tearing the league apart.

    It takes time to get used to the style of play here.

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    Do you mean does he go to ground too easily or has he bombed as a player?

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    Gilberto isn't going anywhere. #GetUsedToIt

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    I'm annoyed that he hasn't scored, but he is contributing at least. He has the yips I think.. it will pass. Totally new climate, city, and style of play... and we counter attack like grade schoolers for 80 minutes a game leaving him with little or no service. I have a feeling Nelsen will get canned before Gilberto does. I'd give him at least 20 games. It would be different if he wasn't contributing at all.

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    Many players take time to adjust to new teams.

    Many player take time to adjust to new leagues.

    South American players often time - upwards of a year to adjust to the MLS.

    Let's ask this question next time this year.

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    I wouldn't cut him loose just yet,, But so far he is a flop and he deserves the flak he gets for it.

    He is a designated player. The guy is missing chances that any "Real striker" should be converting.
    By "Real striker" I mean guys who are paid to score goals. Gilberto is getting paid as a striker. He should be scoring goals.

    We gave up a proven midfielder who is being considered a potential MLS all star to keep him on the team.
    Matias Laba is a south American player who came in last season and made an impact right away, even with being on a shitty team.

    Gilberto is not scoring, and at times, getting in the way of others potential scoring opportunities.
    He is currently a stain on this new managements signing record.

    A high priced signing of a relatively unknown player who is not living up to expectations.
    Keep him as long as you feel you need to develop him, but keep in mind if we are loosing games 1-0 and 2-1, dropping in the standings later in the season (August/September) and he is still not scoring, you have to start questioning his worth to this club.

    Chad Barrett is a cheaper alternative who does the same thing he is doing right now.
    Last edited by jabbronies; 05-19-2014 at 11:52 AM.

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    Hmm. I kind of agree with everyone here. He forsure is not worth his $1.5M price tag, adjusting or not the flashes I have seen is of a good player, but not that much money. That part is simple, as we surely super overpaid to get his services, however for us as fans, the only number we shuld care about is the $387,500 of the cap that he takes up and for that, it is still up for debate in my mind. But, at the same time we do need to wait and see how he adjusts and give him time.

    But, again there are no flashes of 1.5M, is he worth the $387,500 is still up for debate.

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    I think Gilberto's a great player who's just had some bad luck with chances and his confidence has taken a hit. Once the goals start going in, no one will be asking if he's a flop any more, thats what I hope...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Do you mean does he go to ground too easily or has he bombed as a player?
    I was referring that end to end run that ended with a low cross to nobody. It was a bad example because I thought he was closer to the middle and cut wide but on second viewing he wasn't that central to begin with. Bad example, poor choice of words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad View Post
    Many players take time to adjust to new teams.

    Many player take time to adjust to new leagues.

    South American players often time - upwards of a year to adjust to the MLS.

    Let's ask this question next time this year.
    So what you're saying is you won't know if he's a good player or not until a year from now? Why what takes so long?
    I made up my mind after a few games that Gilberto has the talent and is a good player worthy of the dp price tag. You can agree or not but I don't think it takes 1-1/2 years to form an opinion. All this talk of "gelling" and giving time is being blown out of proportion. Yes, time is needed, but only a month or two, not years...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2mil4dero+santo View Post
    So what you're saying is you won't know if he's a good player or not until a year from now? Why what takes so long?
    I made up my mind after a few games that Gilberto has the talent and is a good player worthy of the dp price tag. You can agree or not but I don't think it takes 1-1/2 years to form an opinion. All this talk of "gelling" and giving time is being blown out of proportion. Yes, time is needed, but only a month or two, not years...

    Might take a few months for a few aspects of the team to gel but it will take us a few years to fully develop into a team that has enough in it's arsenal to challenge for a championship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    Might take a few months for a few aspects of the team to gel but it will take us a few years to fully develop into a team that has enough in it's arsenal to challenge for a championship.
    Maybe, but it doesn't take 2 years to decide if a players good or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2mil4dero+santo View Post
    So what you're saying is you won't know if he's a good player or not until a year from now? Why what takes so long?
    I made up my mind after a few games that Gilberto has the talent and is a good player worthy of the dp price tag. You can agree or not but I don't think it takes 1-1/2 years to form an opinion. All this talk of "gelling" and giving time is being blown out of proportion. Yes, time is needed, but only a month or two, not years...
    That's exactly the point I wanted to make. How much time is enough? After 10 games I think it's a good time to start the conversation. Yes, he's a new player in the league and he could end up pulling a Dempsey or Camilo (who is available, btw). I don't want to dump him yet either, but I think if there's another two months of this, he's as good as gone.

    Gilberto has the 9th highest salary in MLS at $1.14-1.21m. There's a lot of guys on league max that are doing what he's doing, but better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    He is a designated player. The guy is missing chances that any "Real striker" should be converting.
    Like that open net miss in the 16th minute? If Wright-Phillips hadn't blown a more incredible chance then I think we'd be talking about Gilberto's.

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    Gilberto may not have scored yet, but no one can criticise his effort or his attitude. The guy works so hard, tackles back and runs his legs off. Yes, he's missed a few decent chances, but it's not like he's squandering dozens of golden opportunities a game. Defoe is a phenomenal finisher who's practically unique in this league for being able to close a quarter-chance, but the reality is that neither he nor Gilberto are getting great service from the rest of the team. The difference is that while Defoe takes most of his chances, Gilberto's clearly lost his confidence and is a little gun-shy. One goal should correct that and I can easily see him still scoring a bucketful this season. Now, I can understand why on DP money there might be some impatience to start seeing him do what he was brought in to do, but when you watch the effort he puts in every single week, you can see that he's not goalless because he doesn't care. I'm still confident that he'll come good, and soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    We gave up a proven midfielder who is being considered a potential MLS all star to keep him on the team.
    Matias Laba is a south American player who came in last season and made an impact right away, even with being on a shitty team.
    Laba was not given up for Gilberto. Laba was given up for Bradley. Gilberto and Laba are completely unrelated. The question is whether we should have gone for Bradley when the opportunity arose. As much as I am desperately sorry that we lost Laba, I still think that was the right decision and I am still hoping against hope that we see Laba return to us next season.

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    I'm not going to predict whether he works out or not, but be wary of making bold predictions on strikers that are new to the league before 6-12 months. Adjustment period can be significant.

    People wrote off Marco DiVaio after 1/2 a season and he put in a boatload of goals the next year.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 05-19-2014 at 12:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Villa TFC View Post
    Gilberto may not have scored yet, but no one can criticise his effort or his attitude. The guy works so hard, tackles back and runs his legs off. Yes, he's missed a few decent chances, but it's not like he's squandering dozens of golden opportunities a game. Defoe is a phenomenal finisher who's practically unique in this league for being able to close a quarter-chance, but the reality is that neither he nor Gilberto are getting great service from the rest of the team. The difference is that while Defoe takes most of his chances, Gilberto's clearly lost his confidence and is a little gun-shy. One goal should correct that and I can easily see him still scoring a bucketful this season. Now, I can understand why on DP money there might be some impatience to start seeing him do what he was brought in to do, but when you watch the effort he puts in every single week, you can see that he's not goalless because he doesn't care. I'm still confident that he'll come good, and soon.



    Laba was not given up for Gilberto. Laba was given up for Bradley. Gilberto and Laba are completely unrelated. The question is whether we should have gone for Bradley when the opportunity arose. As much as I am desperately sorry that we lost Laba, I still think that was the right decision and I am still hoping against hope that we see Laba return to us next season.
    Because TFC can't dump a player a few weeks after signing him, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I'm not going to predict whether he works out or not, but be wary of making bold predictions on strikers that are new to the league before 6-12 months. Adjustment period can be significant.

    People wrote off Marco DiVaio after 1/2 a season and he put in a boatload of goals the next year.
    Exactly.

    DiVaio, Dempsey, Martins, ect theve all had a hard time adjusting to the leauge but when they found it out they were and are great goal scorers.

    First people complain we give up on players too soon Plata, Cronin, Urruti, but now you want to move a guy 10 games in. Doesn't make sense. Give the guy time. As soon as he gets his first and gets confidence in this leauge he will start scoring in bucket loads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    I wouldn't cut him loose just yet,, But so far he is a flop and he deserves the flak he gets for it.

    He is a designated player. The guy is missing chances that any "Real striker" should be converting.
    By "Real striker" I mean guys who are paid to score goals. Gilberto is getting paid as a striker. He should be scoring goals.

    We gave up a proven midfielder who is being considered a potential MLS all star to keep him on the team.
    Matias Laba is a south American player who came in last season and made an impact right away, even with being on a shitty team.

    Gilberto is not scoring, and at times, getting in the way of others potential scoring opportunities.
    He is currently a stain on this new managements signing record.

    A high priced signing of a relatively unknown player who is not living up to expectations.
    Keep him as long as you feel you need to develop him, but keep in mind if we are loosing games 1-0 and 2-1, dropping in the standings later in the season (August/September) and he is still not scoring, you have to start questioning his worth to this club.

    Chad Barrett is a cheaper alternative who does the same thing he is doing right now.
    Pretty much this.

    jloome and others have made good points about Gilberto's contributions aside from scoring goals, but I'm pretty much of the same opinion as you - he was brought in to score goal goals, and that's what he is absolutely not doing.

    As for needing time to adjust to the league and getting a feel for the team, every player from outside NA has to deal with that in some manner. But we've had a multitude of players who have done just that and acclimatized themselves relatively quickly. So the question is, why can't Gilberto?
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    Might take a few months for a few aspects of the team to gel but it will take us a few years to fully develop into a team that has enough in it's arsenal to challenge for a championship.
    We've had eight. We cant just hit the reset button and start this 'few years' building approach every single year.
    This is MLS, a competitive team does not take years and years to build. The concept is redundant given the turnover.

    Your next argument should be that we have never given a coach 'a few years' and it would be valid. Here is truth. But...

    Challenging for a championship requires a coach who believes it can be done. Winter didnt believe, you could see it in his frightened eyes. Carver's frustration and excuses were a red flag and Cummins didnt care. Cummins was of the opinion that we were unavoidably mediocre and our priority therefore was youth development. He got that from Carver, another mediocre mid table man manager who benched Dichio to develop Chad Barrett. Preki had to go with Mojo. They could not be kept. Everybody else was an interim.

    Other teams all have to deal with these same issues, we are not the only team that gets new players or coaches. We are not the only team whos players have to learn how to work together.

    Your 'few years' argument was old when Mojo left, nobody since has shown the acumen to allow us to confidently say 'this will take a few years, give him time'

    You never present the danger of allowing somebody a few years of 'building' only to realize in year four that you are no closer than you were, and you now have to give it 'another few years' with somebody different.

    Progress needs to be monitored. Improvement needs to be obvious. Otherwise 'a few years' is just stalling bullshit and buying time to fix mistakes.

    Manchester United were very smart to remove Moyes. They didnt expect him to win a single trophy this year, they gave him all the slack he needed, but they monitored his progress the whole time and were not satisfied with the results. They didnt need to give him a few years to 'see' . They could 'see' the decline in morale and performances with their own eyes. they didnt say 'well, thats football, it takes a few years and anybody who says different doesnt know anything about football'

    They fired him and found a proven coach with a winning track record. They'll be back in the top four next year.

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    I think he has just had some terrible luck. I feel that when he finally buries one and gets that monkey off his back that he will prove his worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Villa TFC View Post
    Laba was not given up for Gilberto. Laba was given up for Bradley. Gilberto and Laba are completely unrelated. The question is whether we should have gone for Bradley when the opportunity arose. As much as I am desperately sorry that we lost Laba, I still think that was the right decision and I am still hoping against hope that we see Laba return to us next season.
    Yes I've heard this before from TL and crew. But the reality is Laba was the 4th DP on the roster.

    Sure position for position you line Bradley up with Laba and say that we gave up one for the other, but Bradley and Defoe are both the types of players who DP money commands - High profile Internationals. They are no brainers - you sign them when they come available.

    Gilberto and Laba are the same because they are unknown gambles in the DP rehlm. You pay a lot of money and it may work, it may not.
    They gambled on Gilberto rather than keep Laba IMO

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    oh... Gilberto thread....

    yeah, he's got some funky curse. I have no confidence in this guy, and he has none in front of goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alixir View Post
    I think he has just had some terrible luck. I feel that when he finally buries one and gets that monkey off his back that he will prove his worth.
    This is what we said about every unproven striker we ever paid big bucks for.

    We also said it about Chad Barrett, who to be fair, scored a few crackers, yet remained a legendary misser of sitters throughout his tenure.

    Have you seen this guy in front of goal? You can almost hear him thinking, and it sounds like 'ohshitohshitohshitohshitohsitohshit'

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Yes I've heard this before from TL and crew. But the reality is Laba was the 4th DP on the roster.

    Sure position for position you line Bradley up with Laba and say that we gave up one for the other, but Bradley and Defoe are both the types of players who DP money commands - High profile Internationals. They are no brainers - you sign them when they come available.

    Gilberto and Laba are the same because they are unknown gambles in the DP rehlm. You pay a lot of money and it may work, it may not.
    They gambled on Gilberto rather than keep Laba IMO
    I've argued this myself. But the practical reality is you can't cut someone loose you've just signed without paying through the nose and beyond that, it would make our already spotty reputation ever spottier.

    Gilberto is a good all-around player, better technique, passing, movement, ball retention etc than the other players on our team.

    Problematically he seems very streaky. This was true at Internacional, too, and you have to wonder if that's why they had no problem letting him go despite a good season.

    Look at his goals online and quite a few seem to be fairly out-of-the-ordinary. But perhaps it's worrisome that most AREN'T ordinary, as it's basically good looks he's been blowing, and a couple of sitters.

    Is he worth a DP deal? Sure. until we can be certain he won't come good, and eight games isn't nearly enough. I wouldn't pay him 1.5M a year, but that doesn't hit the cap anyway. And his all-around game looks like the real deal ... minus finishing.

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    Nobody is saying "get rid of him now" at least not in this thread. ExildedRed made a great comment about monitoring progress. We have a decent sample size for his introduction into the league. Now let`s see if things can get better from here.

    Here`s the miss I was talking about earlier:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txcVCR7G9XE&t=2m18s

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    I'd also add that he has to start scoring for another reason: we don't play a 4-3-3, and a guy whose best role is "target forward" in the Heskey/Duncan Ferguson mode isn't going to do us much good.

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    The immediate results expectation rears its head again.

    Do you guys want to be a perennial contender or simply just throw another band aid on an old problem? If you are the band aid variety, "cut your losses" on Gilberto and roll the dice on someone else.

    For the better part of 8 years, the formula for team building has been:

    - new coach/manager
    - 2-3 DPs to cover up lack of depth
    - Waiver and/or re-entry draft pick ups
    - trades
    - lather, rinse repeat for the next season

    Not one manager, aside from Mo early on, has ever focused on drafting AND developing those picks.

    If TFC cannot turn Gilberto, a proven goal scorer from the places were goal scorers are good, into a goal scoring MLS player… what hope do we have of ever developing a player?

    This is a development league for pete's sake. If the staff cannot help a player find their form, improve and excel on the team with the highest payroll in MLS, we are in trouble. Take the eyes off Gilberto and ask what is the development staff doing to help this guy? Not just Nelsen but O'Leary, Brennan, Bent, Oughton. Bent and Brennan never coached before joining TFC. Oughton has just 3 years experience as an assistant technical director and assistant coach.

    Gilberto is underperforming relative to his history. He is young. Help him figure it out and if you can't help him figure it out, let's help this development staff find someplace else to be successful.

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    Pookie, you're taking my concerns to a comical extreme. I can do that too.

    Do you want to be that loser team that takes too long to acclimate players who are in fact, dead weight? How long is enough before you can no longer bear the constant humiliations of being a high priced bottom feeder?

 

 

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