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  1. #931
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Good luck with that. It's the right mentality in the real world, but this is the internet. And on the internet, people need to win.
    Well just be classy about it. We don't need to be all No Fun League with mods acting like Roger Goodell's.

    Those who are correct in a debate should be allowed to say "oh hey I was right" in some form, while not being a prick to anyone. However EQUALLY SO, those who were wrong need to be held to the same standard, where they need to say "oh hey I was wrong" while not throwing a god damn hissy fit.

    No need to target one side here, if that's where we're heading with moderation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Well just be classy about it. We don't need to be all No Fun League with mods acting like Roger Goodell's.

    Those who are correct in a debate should be allowed to say "oh hey I was right" in some form, while not being a prick to anyone. However EQUALLY SO, those who were wrong need to be held to the same standard, where they need to say "oh hey I was wrong" while not throwing a god damn hissy fit.

    No need to target one side here, if that's where we're heading with moderation.

  3. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoop View Post
    Mod Edit: He didn't call anyone racist - he implied that there may be a certain cultural prejudice behind some of the criticism of Gilberto. While I'd have liked it more if he pointed to specific posts he thinks are responsible for it, it wouldn't be the first time it's cropped up on this board.
    Last edited by Shakes McQueen; 08-19-2014 at 10:48 AM. Reason: You misunderstood what he meant. This is inflammatory. ~Shakes

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Well just be classy about it. We don't need to be all No Fun League with mods acting like Roger Goodell's.

    Those who are correct in a debate should be allowed to say "oh hey I was right" in some form, while not being a prick to anyone. However EQUALLY SO, those who were wrong need to be held to the same standard, where they need to say "oh hey I was wrong" while not throwing a god damn hissy fit.

    No need to target one side here, if that's where we're heading with moderation.
    "Oh hey, I was right" is a far cry from the behaviour I described, and my post specifically said it was not restricted to any one "side" - sore losers are equally as irritating as sore winners. I believe I've been vindicated in my patience for Gilberto, and have no issue saying that - but I don't join the inquisition for all the people who I believe were "wrong". Someone may find that "fun", but it's incredibly immature fun, and tends to create issues.

    I also dislike weasel language in a more broad sense. If someone specifically said something you disagree with, or think may be rooted in some sort of racial/cultural bias, then call those comments into question directly. If you think someone wanted Gilberto traded due to foolishness or impatience, then point to the post where the claim was made. Don't vaguely ascribe certain errors or biases to "some people", "some folks", "several people here", and so on - especially if, for example, you're going to imply a subtle prejudicial element to "some of" the criticism.

    Aside from that? Go nuts. If Gilberto never scored another goal for us after this past Saturday, I'd be saying the same thing to the pessimists who would no doubt be in here trumpeting their vindication.
    Last edited by Shakes McQueen; 08-19-2014 at 10:49 AM.
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    The mod team has been following this thread closely. We don't like to be overly heavy-handed in moderating, but if someone keeps on stepping out of line (and now would be a good time for everyone to review the board rules: http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/faq.php ) we will infract, give time-outs, or bans if need be. This board needs to be a reasonable safe place for people to express their opinions without being attacked. It also needs to support the goals and aims of the Red Patch Boys as a whole (which is to support Toronto FC) and not conflicting agendas by others.
    "Of all the things in life that don't actually matter, football matters the most." - Stuart McKeown

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  6. #936
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    I as well preached patience with Gilberto as well since the beginning and hopefully its starting to pay off with his current form.

    He was always the B1 DP that was brought in as a project not a Defoe. Hes starting to come around and our squad is all the better for it.

    Hard work and determination has got him in good areas and he's finishing his chances now. If he can find a groove and go through only a small patch of games without scoring were a better team with it.

    For once we have secondary scoring outside of one striker. That's a positive he brings to this squad.
    Last edited by BuSaPuNk; 08-19-2014 at 10:35 AM.

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    We are going far afield of the point of this thread, into an angry personal dispute. If you want to hash it out, move to PMs please. ~Shakes
    Last edited by Shakes McQueen; 08-19-2014 at 10:52 AM.

  8. #938
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    This matter is closed. If you want to hash it out, move to PMs please. ~Shakes
    Last edited by Shakes McQueen; 08-19-2014 at 10:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuSaPuNk View Post
    I as well preached patience with Gilberto as well since the beginning and hopefully its starting to pay off with his current form.

    He was always the B1 DP that was brought in as a project not a Defoe. Hes starting to come around and our squad is all the better for it.

    Hard work and determination has got him in good areas and he's finishing his chances now. If he can find a groove and go through only a small patch of games without scoring were a better team with it.

    For once we have secondary scoring outside of one striker. That's a positive he brings to this squad.
    I agree. I'm glad Nelson had some patience with Gilberto. I hope he can continue this form through the rest of the season & into the playoffs.

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    If you guys get this thread closed, I'm going to pour beer over both your heads.


    Not just any beer... Bud Light.

    Mod Edit: The matter is closed, as far as this particular thread is concerned. ~Shakes
    Last edited by Shakes McQueen; 08-19-2014 at 10:54 AM.

  11. #941
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    Let's get back to the topic at hand...

    Mista > Gilberto

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    There's been a South American/continental European vs British/American divide since day 1 of Toronto FC.

    Mod Edit: Removed the attacks, and other invective. Left the core point to be discussed, if people want. ~Shakes
    Last edited by Shakes McQueen; 08-19-2014 at 11:05 AM.

  13. #943
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    Mod Edit... of a Mod. The same mod, actually. - Issue resolved. Edits made. The garden is burned to the ground, but maybe it can grow back?

    ~ Shakes
    Last edited by Shakes McQueen; 08-19-2014 at 11:13 AM.
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    "WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS"

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    No worries Ryan. You're in my good books.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CBTFC View Post
    Let's get back to the topic at hand...

    Mista > Gilberto
    You summed up the topic nicely.
    "Of all the things in life that don't actually matter, football matters the most." - Stuart McKeown

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    Quote Originally Posted by CBTFC View Post
    Let's get back to the topic at hand...

    Mista < Gilberto
    Fixed. :P

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    I clearly was and am a supporter of Gilberto (however, conceding that if I saw him as a pure 9 that he should be scoring more) other including Whoop have summarized some of my thoughts. te

    I will say this, I am not sure who posted about the apparent bias, and at some point I might have said it, but I also suspected that it existed. I understand why people are saying they do not like when people say "some people", but for me it is a way of introducing an issue without pointing anyone in particular as the problem, a more constructive way of talking about the issue. God knows, I thing that you will agree, that I have no problem confronting people I disagree with, a bit too much I would say. But I would prefer to do it as a debate and not an angry argument. ( I do not always succeed)

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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    I clearly was and am a supporter of Gilberto (however, conceding that if I saw him as a pure 9 that he should be scoring more) other including Whoop have summarized some of my thoughts. te

    I will say this, I am not sure who posted about the apparent bias, and at some point I might have said it, but I also suspected that it existed. I understand why people are saying they do not like when people say "some people", but for me it is a way of introducing an issue without pointing anyone in particular as the problem, a more constructive way of talking about the issue. God knows, I thing that you will agree, that I have no problem confronting people I disagree with, a bit too much I would say. But I would prefer to do it as a debate and not an angry argument. ( I do not always succeed)
    I understand this POV, but my point was more that people should be calling out specific instances of what they see as the problem in question. When you just say "some people here clearly have a cultural bias" or something along those lines, all that does is create a situation where EVERYONE who falls on the other side of an issue, feels like they are being accused of that. And with serious charges like that, I think it's important to be specific. It doesn't need to devolve into an angry argument, so long as it's simply a well-intentioned difference of opinion.

    And if there is no clear evidence of it, perhaps it's a charge that shouldn't be levied in the first place - or rephrased to something along the lines of a more general conversation about cultural differences in football. When you start off by accusing an unknown number of unidentified people of having such a bias, you invite angry responses, at which point you can sit back and go "well, I didn't mean YOU specifically!"

    It's a way of making sweeping statements, while also insulating yourself from pushback, because you can never be nailed down on whose and what statements you're actually referring to. I think everyone does it from time to time, but when it comes to potentially divisive or explosive topics, we should be more thoughtful with our words - it spares a lot of problems.

    As for cultural biases, I actually think it's a perfectly pertinent point, and I've certainly seen clear examples of it here in the past (and as mods, clear examples occasionally get pointed out privately to us via reported posts). But I don't think it's a charge that should be made lightly, or non-specifically. I'll always stand behind a user's right to call out bad or odious arguments directly.
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    I'd like to test people to admit to "preference" vs damning others for "bias". It works both ways when talking about style preference but I don't see why we can't appreciate both. This league screams diversity more than any other. We're lucky for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    I clearly was and am a supporter of Gilberto (however, conceding that if I saw him as a pure 9 that he should be scoring more) other including Whoop have summarized some of my thoughts. te

    I will say this, I am not sure who posted about the apparent bias, and at some point I might have said it, but I also suspected that it existed. I understand why people are saying they do not like when people say "some people", but for me it is a way of introducing an issue without pointing anyone in particular as the problem, a more constructive way of talking about the issue. God knows, I thing that you will agree, that I have no problem confronting people I disagree with, a bit too much I would say. But I would prefer to do it as a debate and not an angry argument. ( I do not always succeed)
    We talked about that number 9 role before. I think it could work and would be interested to see it happen - but a lot would have to change on this team to make that happen. It could be catering to 1 player over numerous players. but I would still like to see it have a go for a few matches.

    You and I have had some good banter through the years without boiling over into an argument - So I pose this question to you because I know you won't fly off the hook:
    Do you get the sense that there is a connection loss between the team and Gilberto? After he scores I don't get that jubilation feel from the team when he scores that other players on the team get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post

    You and I have had some good banter through the years without boiling over into an argument - So I pose this question to you because I know you won't fly off the hook:
    Do you get the sense that there is a connection loss between the team and Gilberto? After he scores I don't get that jubilation feel from the team when he scores that other players on the team get.
    I wonder if language issues get in the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    We talked about that number 9 role before. I think it could work and would be interested to see it happen - but a lot would have to change on this team to make that happen. It could be catering to 1 player over numerous players. but I would still like to see it have a go for a few matches.

    You and I have had some good banter through the years without boiling over into an argument - So I pose this question to you because I know you won't fly off the hook:
    Do you get the sense that there is a connection loss between the team and Gilberto? After he scores I don't get that jubilation feel from the team when he scores that other players on the team get.
    I will take a shot at this, from what I see and feel he has immense pressure on him to score and just looks at it as getting the job done when he does pot it. Coming out and saying 25 goals in a season puts a mark on you and he did so very willingly. There was that relief celebration on the first one, but since its all business IMO.
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    Gilberto is here because he is trying to get to Europe.

    He has to score a lot of goals to do that.

    He didn't come for the camaderie, or the badge. Which we all have known from the beginning. No need to expect much on that front.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    We talked about that number 9 role before. I think it could work and would be interested to see it happen - but a lot would have to change on this team to make that happen. It could be catering to 1 player over numerous players. but I would still like to see it have a go for a few matches.

    You and I have had some good banter through the years without boiling over into an argument - So I pose this question to you because I know you won't fly off the hook:
    Do you get the sense that there is a connection loss between the team and Gilberto? After he scores I don't get that jubilation feel from the team when he scores that other players on the team get.

    Insider information is that Gilberto has isolated himself from the whole team .. His cockiness didn't come off well and HE feels he should be in a better league over seas'. Thats from his mouth ..
    imo he should score more and the team would be much happier with twinkle toes

  26. #956
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Gilberto is here because he is trying to get to Europe.

    He has to score a lot of goals to do that.

    He didn't come for the camaderie, or the badge. Which we all have known from the beginning. No need to expect much on that front.
    Pretty much. So long as he plays well, and isn't an active disruption in the locker room, I don't have any issue with that
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Gilberto is here because he is trying to get to Europe.

    He has to score a lot of goals to do that.

    He didn't come for the camaderie, or the badge. Which we all have known from the beginning. No need to expect much on that front.

    i can't think of any player who wouldn't want to play in one of the major leagues/teams in Europe if offered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    i can't think of any player who wouldn't want to play in one of the major leagues/teams in Europe if offered.
    Agreed. ensco makes it sound like it's a bad thing. So was DeRo evil in trying to play for Celtic? Every player dreams of going to the biggest leagues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    i can't think of any player who wouldn't want to play in one of the major leagues/teams in Europe if offered.
    Spot on, it's the transient nature of this league and in fact a lot of leagues world wide. Gilberto has to be careful what he wishes for though, as the money in Europe at the teams he is realistically looking at is tight.
    It is somewhat ironic and funny how perceptions on this site switch dramatically, after the recent Columbus game Pookie was suggesting moving on Defoe at the end of this season or into next to free up a DP mid spot who would supply a strikeforce of Bike and Gilberto.Looks like a lot of us now are in agreement that Gilberto is out of here as soon as a decent offer in Europe is put to him. What about the "we beat euro teams" to his signature crap we heard when he signed for us. Either that was PR nonsense or the teams weren't offering the money we did, which brings me back to my earlier point, money at mid to smaller teams in Euro is tight.

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    Players move on, it's true at the bottom and it's true at the top and everywhere in between. Modern football. I don't begrudge a player wanting to move leagues as part of their career plan as long as they put in a full effort while they are wearing our club's shirt. That last part was a bit suspect from Gil at the beginning but more in evidence lately.
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