Michael Bradley for one?Originally Posted by jabbronies
Michael Bradley for one?
That describes not just TFC but every MLS squad. The squads may have their Bradleys or Henrys, but the lesser players that fill out each squad just aren't that good. TFC's filler just needs to be as good as the average MLS squad's filler, not suddenly be EPL-quality players.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
What else can Bradley say, when the team can not hold the ball -- yeah, we just suck at it ?
So its not true if it doesn't fit your theory?
Meh.......this discussion belongs on Facebook.
Todays East Side Stand Up Pretty Much says it all
http://rednationonline.ca/
Last edited by OgtheDim; 04-21-2014 at 10:04 AM.
Possession is really a "smoke and mirrors" stat in football. It doesn't win games, doesn't get you points. But it does look excellent 'on paper'. It's a stat that everybody uses to their advantage (you have low and have low possession then "they gave the ball away too much", you win and have low possession and "you frustrated the opposition").
TFC have had 4 away games (tough away games, too) and 2 home against tough opponents. I would personally never expect an MLS away team to have high possession stats. So what can we read from this at the moment? I would say, nothing.
It's 9 points from the first 6 matches still our best start? (or close to it).
I thought this thread was from last year. We made another one? Welcome back to those just started to doubt the first time coach.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Bradley & Osorio were fit enough to play... and that's about it. Not fit enough to make an impact. They only played because we had no other options.
Orr has been a nice backup at CB but he's not the aerial force that Henry is. Both Dallas goals came from crosses into the box. Who knows what happens if Henry is in there instead?
Rey does not equal Issey or Jackson, not even close. We're hurting badly without him. He can dribble his way out of trouble in midfield, but more importantly he's a threat to punish you if you don't respect him. When he gets the ball, defenders back off and try to occupy space. When Issey or Jackson get the ball they close in. That makes a huge difference in our ability to counter attack properly.
I think I've seen you post along these lines already. You're suggesting all our injuries don't actually make a difference in our ability to perform? I have to confirm that's what you're saying because really, it's a ridiculous suggestion.
The depleted bench matters too. We already have crappy squad depth in the first place. I don't understand the people complaining about Nelsen's substitutions. He's got nothing on the bench. The reason Wiedeman comes on in the 90th minute rather than the 75th is because he can't do jack shit, so Nelsen wants to get the most of out people who can instead. The one game we've been able to get a non-useless striker on the bench (DeRo) due to other guys being healthy was against D.C., and he came on very early in that game. You can bet if Dike were healthy he or DeRo would be coming on a lot earlier than Wiedeman or Hamilton has been. Christ, I've literally seen people wondering why Hamilton isn't getting in games earlier. Right, because 18 year old, no-professional-minutes, can't-get-a-USL-loan Jordan Hamilton is going to come on and make a real difference (note: I'm not knocking him, he's just not ready).
Wut?
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Re: possession
Bradley now is the part of the system, he is a smart guy, he knows what to say at this time.
Even Serouix, who IMO was the coolest TFC player with the ball, recently brought up the same questions on the air.
Please stay away from molenshtain, it is a splash zone. :-)
Last edited by starter; 04-21-2014 at 10:25 AM.
Another stat that's being thrown around is the "giving up 16 corners". Well, its not 16 GOALS! It's corners! And if you are organised, corners don't lead to anything. Conceding corners usually indicates that you are closing down the attackers quickly and stopping direct shots on goal. Not allowing them space to have a shot on target. Glass half full/half empty really.
Quoting statistics is just a lazy way of analyzing football. They seldom prove anything.
And I actually can't believe fans are questioning Nelsen's job. Toronto fans are like a spoilt only child. They want the train set for Christmas, and they cry christmas day because its not a real train.
We got our DP's, we shuffled players around, and after playing some of the best teams in the League we got 9 points after 6 games. If you are actually doubting Nelsen at this point you may as well go and yell at the sky for not being high enough. At this point in, what did people really want or expect? Don't give me "attractive football" answer either, you want that, go watch La Liga. Its MLS.
For the past years I thought it was the club that made it difficult to support them, but I actually think it could be some of our fans
The possession stat is banded around by those that don't understand the game. They just like the shiny graphics at half time that force feed them knowledge.
True, but after 3 games (I think) we had the lowest pass completion in the league. I haven't seen the stat since - but that was worrying since it measured us against other teams in the league.
I agree with everything you;ve said except this bit. We're paying Hamilton like he is one of the best 18's in the league and the people in the club and the people at CNMNT clearly think He's one of the best Prospects we've put out. He's gotta be better than weideman. At least Hamilton would offer some pace and flair on the ball. I get what weideman does, he's like a homeless man's Dirk Kuyt. I'd prefer to see what Hamilton could bring to a game if we we'e trailing.
And It's not as if he can't actually get a loan. He was supposed to be the fourth player we sent to Wilmington but we kept him out of necessity after Dike's injury.
Last edited by molenshtain; 04-21-2014 at 11:42 AM.
Do you watch other MLS games? I don't buy the argument that there is no attractive football in this league. The few times I've watched teams like Seattle, RSL, hell even Vancouver play, I've been stunned at the difference in quality (Seattle's second half in Dallas last week was amazing). The buzzword for our games seems to be "scrappy," and that we "grind out" results. For a team with of our quality, it shouldn't be the case that we're grinding out results week in week out.
We wanted a winning team, and we have the makings of one here. Grinding out results is exactly what we need to do, until we are established enough with this squad to be bold enough to play with flair. Substance over aesthetics. Again (yet again!), I'll say it; ROME WAS NOT BUILT IN A DAY
The problem football fans have here is that they watch the Premier League in the morning, then immediately assume that's exactly what they'll get at an MLS game. There's a sense entitlement attached to it.
Vancouver play with flair, and they've pretty much had the same start as us. There's a great quote from the greatest Liverpool manager ever: "You want entertainment? go to the circus"
Well said. Led by Bradley and Caldwell, etc, this is the first time we've had enough steel in the team to win those kind of grind it out matches. That's how you win regularly in MLS. We'll do fine.
Moderator
Despite anything people can say about possession, the simple fact remains that there are very few negatives to having control of the ball. It's not something any team will just shrug their shoulders at and say; "M'eh. We can take it or leave it. No big deal". When are numbers are hovering around 30% to 40% in some games, I don't think people are out of line to mention it.
Toronto FC doesn't operate in a vacuum. Other teams analyze how we play and work to exploit our weaknesses and deny us our strengths. If the case truly was that low possession is not a priority for us, that doesn't negate the fact that there are likely a few MLS coaching staffs right now brainstorming over how use that attitude against us.
BUT the fact that we can have such low possession and still win is a very interesting point to consider.
Last edited by Cashcleaner; 04-21-2014 at 12:55 PM.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
No one said that there is no attractive football in this league.
A team with our quality has shown they are "scrappy" since they won with little possession and are now struggling with key injuries.
You're stunned. Stay tuned. It'll become more clear in weeks to come.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
the question is.....what does Leiweke think......dont matter what we think.
He cares about where we are at the end of the year. Not 6 weeks in
Simple math people...no playoffs = nelson gone
ty
It's relative. I'm not concerned about losing on possession by 5-10%, losing by 15%+ is not typically a good thing. That is simply a result of playing too direct, lobbying wasteful low percentage passes at strikers while bypassing our midfield, and lacking the composure to play out of pressure.
We are getting drilled back so far our ability to counter attack is being impeded. This team has to get more tactically savvy and realize sometimes the direct play or counter attack simply isn't on.
This is not BS like trying to be Barcalona or even RSL, it's simply adopting to the modern tenants of the game, which it's pretty unanaimous that You don't have to win possession necessarily, but showing no regard for it whatsoever bodes terribly.
It means the other team has a crappy offence, a bit like ours was with Chad Barrett.
People forget, you only play a game that surrenders possession, when you think you're up against superior opposition.
Trane will start cursing me for this, but the defensive (wait and see if they slip up and then pounce) approach, reeks of an inferior mindset.
What happens when two teams who are stuck on an exclusively counterattacking strategy play each other?
The team with the balls is likely the team on the ball.
Good post, calling what they do passes is way too generous.
Bradley and to lesser extent Bekker/Ososrio are capable of distributing, but you have to work the ball to them first. Team just does not do enough to make this happen.
Also, there is no harm trying to play like RSL, or Barcelona, not in my book. I am willing to give up some of that grinding to see that.
I hear a Mr. Moyes may be available.
Starter, you can't put lipstick on a pig. If you don't have the players to play like Barcelona, simply put, you don't. Defoe, Bradley and Gilberto do not conform to that style of play. They are fast, on the break, players who prefer the ball played in front of them than to the side. I'd never teach kids to play like Barca because it's "pretty". Play like Bayern, play like Real. Hold them off, wait, be defensively strong, then hit them on the counter.Good post, calling what they do passes is way too generous.
Bradley and to lesser extent Bekker/Ososrio are capable of distributing, but you have to work the ball to them first. Team just does not do enough to make this happen.
Also, there is no harm trying to play like RSL, or Barcelona, not in my book. I am willing to give up some of that grinding to see that.
At the very root of this thread is the ongoing theme that people want free flowing, tika taka football. But I'd put money on it that if we had the same amount of points playing that way, people would be wailing that there's not enough graft or ability to grind out results. We have a strong core of players here, and a manager that knows them and will get the best out of them. We have to have faith, and for the love of all that's holy, some patience. Its six games. This thread has made me unbelievably angry but at least has proven what I've thought all long. Some people in the supporters groups will never be happy.
Well said.
I think we have got the best roster we have ever had, we should give them some credit.
There is a reason it is called a beautiful game.
I am more of Laudrup fan.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote