Actually we are playing pretty normal MLS ball, for a team who hasn't played much together. And definately better then last season.Originally Posted by adam1001
People in this town have never seen a successful MLS team over a long period of time, so are comparing how we play to TV.
-well those teams on tv are actually real football teams not actors.
I'd struggle to disagree with you on that one. However, I believe Nelsen can achieve things with us.
Who is this Experienced Manager that you want to hire over Nelson? Robinson, Cassar, Petke, Kreis, Vermes, Watson, Nelson, Porter, Hackworth, Heaps, Cabrera, Mastroeni.. .What do these 11 current managers have in common? They all started coaching shortly after their careers and barely had any previous experience.. possibly a year or two as an assistant. This league is full of rookie managers, that is the landscape that we are in. We have a rookie manager like over 50% of the other teams.
Let me give you another way to look at this.. Here are the current managers.. and beside them is the number of years they have managed a team at a level of MLS or higher (say somewhere abroad), followed by their age.
Does Nelson look out of place to you in this league? Does he not bring other intangibles such as experience at the highest level and MLS unlike a lot of these guys, and does he not have outstanding connections and relationships? The one's that hate him for his style fail to see how horrible this team was last year and how this current group of players haven't played enough games together. It is lunacy to think that you can come in and win right away in this league.
Frank Yallop Canada 14 years experience 50 years old Wilmer Cabrera Colombia 0 46 Gregg Berhalter United States 2 40 Pablo Mastroeni United States 0 37 Óscar Pareja Colombia 2 45 Ben Olsen United States 4 37 Dominic Kinnear United States 10 46 Bruce Arena United States 18 62 Frank Klopas United States 3 47 Jay Heaps United States 3 37 Mike Petke United States 1 38 John Hackworth United States 2 44 Caleb Porter United States 1 39 Jeff Cassar United States 40 Mark Watson Canada 1 43 Sigi Schmid United States 14 61 Peter Vermes United States 5 47 Ryan Nelsen New Zealand 1 36 Carl Robinson Wales 0 37
Case Study: Jason Kreis - The MLS Golden boy (manager)
Started with RSL in 2007:
The record of the team in their first 3 seasons:
6W - 9D - 15L
10W - 10D - 10L
11W - 7D - 12L
It was not until his 4th year of managing the team that they won more games than they lost.
Case Study #2 - Peter Vermes - The Current MLS Champion SKC Manager
Started managing SKC in 2009:
The first 3 years while Vermes was in charge:
8W - 13D - 9L - missed playoffs
11W - 13D - 6L - missed playoffs
13W - 9D -12L - made playoffs.
This league is all about building chemistry, drafting well and having some form of stability.. because the parity equals everyone out. For once... can we stop this talk and let the man do his job and attempt to get the best out of his players?
^ well done.
I keep going back to how you rate the roster. If you believe the hype, and Public Enemy warned us years ago... Don't Believe the Hype.... then you have angst as it is underperforming. To fix the angst, you seek out a proven Manager.
If you rate the roster as still needing some significant pieces, they may not be underperforming at all. What you want is stability and time for current players to develop and/or be replaced. A Manager change is the last thing you want at this point in time.
Sadly, the ticket sellers... like all ticket sellers before... want playoffs and certainly don't need any Winter-Dutch honesty about needing better players. Competitive for playoffs. They handed themselves all kinds of accolades in the offseason about turning around so they need it to turn around.
I believe the ticket sellers will win and we will lose another coach. It will be unfair if this happens.
First of all Pookie I never said we were filled with stars in our midfield minus Bradley. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Second of all, god damn you guys need to chill the fuck out on this one. We have a good starting eleven, one of the best in the league. could it get better with some minor tweaking? yes. could it get better with added competition for guys who are under-performing as they currently are, particularly some young hungry players like hagglund that we'll be getting in the draft next year? most definitely. But for the love of all that is holy can we chill out on the fire Nelsen stuff? yes it's frustrating to be playing like this when we were promised the world at in December but can we give it some time? Nelsen has clearly show some very positive attributes; his ability to organize a defense is impressive and the players love playing for him and, to me, his media management game is on point (thought it seems some of you will disagree). Sporting only won one of it's first ten games the first year they topped the conference after the rebranding. the best teams in this league aren't good enough that they won't suffer from slumps like this. I think it just so happens that for various reasons our slump is coming at the beginning of the season.
If Nelsen doesn't matter to Defoe, he's gone. If he does, he stays.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
You seen Chivas lately?
Much like preki and mariner, I've wanted him gone almost since the moment he got here. That being said, I think we should hold onto him until they have a viable upgrade available as I don't see anyone in the backroom or office that could do much better
I'm with Pookie on this. There is definitely some work to be done on the roster. We have a pretty good starting XI, but we still don't have the kind of depth Salt Lake or KC have. We're really thin in the central midfield as well, as we all knew we would be when Laba was traded.
Also, I know people like to disparage the idea of gelling as an excuse, but I think it's real and a couple of months doesn't do it. I've been on teams that played together for years. We knew every move anyone of us would make in every situation. That takes more than a season to develop. Look at Liverpool. It took a year with that manager and group of players to really come together to contend. I think we can and will make the playoffs this year (since the bar for playoffs is set pretty low), but this team is really unlikely to look like top 5 until next year. I like some of what Nelsen has done too. We are more organized than any TFC team I can remember. Also have a lot more backbone. The finesse stuff will come.
Fucking Hell, why do we always have to be at the very start of a rebuild? When in eight years have we taken the next step? Was his time last year just pre-rebuilding?
I think the word 'gel' should be banned. Half these players will be gone before there is any 'gelling' and you all know it.
First team is a complete build over last season so yeah, pre-build sounds good. Or faux-build?
Lol to your second point. So true. Half the team will probably be gone during the summer transfer window. Fuck.
Still think we will take the next step though and this will be a playoff team this year.
Last edited by Canary10; 05-07-2014 at 11:49 AM.
Maybe we shouldn't say rebuild and should simply focus on "build"
Only 1 drafted player currently on the roster.
3 Academy folks (Henry, Morgan and by a stretch of that definition Osorio).
We have always offset that by signing DPs. Picking players off waivers. Picking them off re-entry draft. And trading within MLS in like for like type deals.
The team is always looking for quick fixes. From worst to playoffs is the mantra and it would appear that every coach and manager has managed as if they are on 1 year deals.
2 drafted on roster and you could add a 3rd since he is with wilmington (Bekker, Hagglund, Lovitz)
Rebuild has a chance only if it implements a vision. We have not had any half-decent one aside from the Dutch experiment. (I am saying vision here, not the execution.)
I do not expect RN to provide a good vision any time soon.
What do you want the management to say? They're trying to get the simple point across to the media that a successful team doesn't occur over night and requires stability in order to become one. Why is it so hard to understand that this isn't a championship calibur team by any means and that we need to let these players play, win or lose to eventually become a contender? We've got some fantastic pieces in place but we need to build the house before we can start living in it.
Half this team will be gone?
Before 2015, I could see us giving up:
- Cesar (end of loan)
- DeRo (retired)
- Weideman (traded or not renewed)
- Hall (traded or not renewed)
- Agboss (not renewed)
- Orr (just doesn't work out) And this one's a stretch
- Morgan (trade)
Nobody else (unless we ditch Nelsen, then all bets are off, including our DP's).
Last edited by OgtheDim; 05-07-2014 at 12:53 PM.
So only Winter had a vision because he had his Ajax background and wanted to play 4-3-3??? If you can't see the difference between this year's team and last year's then I don't think you can be helped. RN's mantra is quite obvious in my mind, but it seems it may not be to other people:
- Build around solid veterans (which we've now acquired) and provide every opportunity for our young talented kids to succeed with playing time.
- Pressure and organization is key for him. You have to know where to be when on defense and you have to work as a unit when you press forward in an attempt to retrieve the ball.
- If pressure is successful obviously that will need to a counter attack. Counter attacking is what a lot of teams in MLS do because many players dont' have the skillset to do the tika taka style of possession.
Nelson is well aware of the liabilities that his team has.. he's playing a lot of youth that have a lot of room to grow. I'm sure his message to upper management was that he has every intention to succeed as soon as possible however he wants to do it with a Canadian contingent and while also developing players that can be here long term. This will result in losses, but you can't expect to be a cup contender just by signing 5 guys in the offseason.
As much as I dislike being out-possessed, when I see our team pressure the other side from our backline and all the way through our forwards I get a big smile on my face. These guys are working better together but they need to build up resilience and chemistry to start stringing together some wins. Next time you watch a game, watch how far back our forwards travel to help the pressure system along, it's like watching a high school version of Dortmunds system but at least they're working towards something. The primary thing I dislike about TFC's style is the long ball from the back. We don't have a guy that can make a pass like that and we're turning it over for no reason. That's the situation where'd I'd prefer they build through the middle and then swing it to the wings to try and disorient the backline of the opposition (make them move).
You seem to forget the state of the franchise at the start of last season. We were in a financial disaster. We had Hobo's in our starting lineup. It took most of the season to get rid of 99% of the club and the shitty contracts that had been previously signed.
Then the guy who got hired to clean up the mess- Kevin Payne - wasn't taking us to the next level and was canned.
So unlike previous years instead of getting rid of the manager, they got rid of the guy building the shitty team.
They only really started signing actual players who could be considered long-term solutions this past off-season.
If you thought that they would get every player signing correct on the first try, you have been mislead somewhere along the way. It's not the norm for a team to go from worst, WORST in a league to first.
This team is a mid pack team at best. They will not be close to top 5 until at least next season.
For me, it's fairly clear that Tim L is providing the vision.
The easiest to turn around will be Toronto FC. Win. Now. Playoffs. No waiting.
Essentially, the same vision that Anselmi had for the team and that means short cuts. No waiting for Urutti, we need Defoe.
The only things, I and stress ONLY things, that I am encouraged by are hiring Tim B and stock pilling draft picks.
I can see the business case. I am sure TL has his reasons, while you may not be his biggest fan here.
But I can not believe TL is buying "lets win some games now, but start playing better later" nonsense I hear here a lot to defend this club poor play.
Bolded irony.
Not that I wouldn't want both as well.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
I do prefer people talk on what they believe in, and what would they try to be. RN had little to say, which does not breed confidence. What you are mentioning is more of generic fundamentals.
I came across an interesting sentence from M Laudrup, who claims it is possible to make a good team from average players encouraged to string a few short passes together.
IMO is easier and cheaper to be like Dortmund, than buy its' way like Real.
But you have to know what you are doing. RN will know it some day. but is TL going to wait for that?
I havent forgotten anything. I havent forgotten the eight years of being so poor, it is now standard to aspire to mediocrity.
I havent forgotten eight years of ridiculous excuses, absurd turnover, nonchalance and incompetence that has been glossed over as if its the first time its ever happened, every time.
I haven't forgotten that we've never had a coach with a decent resume and least of all I havent forgotten that we've been 'gelling' since 2007.
I havent forgotten every single person who has sat back in the last eight years, pretended to be some kind of authority on football and condescended those of us who were alarmed at the mismanagement and absurdity by saying 'If you think we are going to win straight away, then you know nothing about football.'
Nelsen has to start winning, because if he doesnt, we're going to be talking about 'gelling' for the next three fucking years.
Gentlemen let's try to look at this season and go with an assumption that we've all been here "since day one" (another possible too often used phrase?).
There's plenty of criticism I for one held off on that we can now confirm.
Remember complaints of not getting in the DP's soon enough to have time to gel in Preseason? Well that turns out that was entirely the case. Struggling in regular season playing catchup while other teams improve. Yep.
I'll leave talk of pitch and weather and other contributors to others. I try to avoid that level of excuses dept.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
For starters, everyone, even yourself, pretends to be an authority on football. 99% of people on this message board are not even considered an amateur authority on the sport. Just a bunch of dudes talking about football.
The other 1% who are actually in the profession and can call themselves football professionals, don't post/argue on the supporters message board.
They mainly only lurk.
I remember a time when you and many others panicked for a manager to be dump after 6 games into the season. It was when Winter was still here. TFC ended up getting an even more fuck up manager in Mariner, whom you and many others, believed to be the saviour of the club, as the replacement and the team managed to become even more shit than ever before. Even more shit than when MoJo was here.
So don't take it personally if people on the message board don't jump on the Sack the manager bandwagon just yet.
I think everyone knows Nelsen needs to win games. We have to make the playoffs this season. There is no other option.
I'd say most people on this board understand that. But unlike you, not everyone is ready to dump the guy 6 games into the season. Especially considering we are only 2 pts out of a playoff spot with 2 games in hand.
It raises a fun question though.
Win just enough to take yourself out of good drafting position. Is that what is good for the long term development of the team?
Would never suggest tanking, the very word makes me cringe. If signing Defoe takes them to 11th overall in the table… just shy of the playoffs and down the draft chart… would that be considered a good thing?
I wonder if TFC would ever consider trading a veteran player or player nearing the end of a contract if it meant a top pick in return?
I agree with everything you say apart from that one part. To me, it would be an extremely successful season to get the additional points (20 plus) within one season to go from a bottom team to a play off team - and that 20 extra would still only get us into the knockout round, not even the play offs!. I only ever recall one team jumping over 20 points in one season, which shows how difficult this is going to be. Then again, I'm probably the only fan who thinks that if TFC don't get in the play offs, then Nelson shouldn't be necessarily fired. A 20 point swing within a season is going to be a massive task, even with new DP's and investment.
There is a fundamental problem with Nelsen that makes his case different from any other before him.
He is somebody else's guy.
He actually made the problem worse when he supported pretty actively, and pretty vocally, the sacking of Payne, who had hired him. Putting aside the morality of that, the pragmatic reality is that he is not only a holdover, but also an opportunist. Boards and CEOs do not like this. The never say it, but they hate it. They see it as grandstanding, not taking responsibility, advertising for another job, and disloyalty. They remember.
Therefore Nelsen is on a very, very short leash. He will be fired quickly, if he is not winning, unless he has a truly special relationship with Defoe. (Which I doubt.)
Not because it's the right thing to do. Because it's what happens.
Same thing for Casey btw. He got to stay because he won, right away. (To his credit, Casey never put the shiv in Colangelo, which probably gave him a bit more leeway.)
Last edited by ensco; 05-07-2014 at 06:01 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Ensco, your thinking is correct - however the same issue will be the players that Nelson himself has brought here. A new coach will want HIS team here, and I would think that a fair few that Nelson has personally brought here will all be in jeopardy of replacement. If Nelson is fired, it will be TFC version one hundred and ninety seven, or something like that!
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote