Matchday 6: Toronto at Dallas, Sat 19 April 830PM EST

[speckles]

I recall Nelsen saying prior to Defoes signing how he was relatively injury free..so based on his medical records it must not have been actually been that bad. It all a calculated risk.... MightyDM is right without this signing we were struggling to be taken seriously by players of any class let alone serious players in the MLS. Winners don't go to loser clubs..they had to make a tangible statement...simple as that. This Defoe deal was been whispered to players before the official announcement and did secure signings.

[Pookie]

Justify it any way you like fellas.

A few of us saw the risks and wrote about them prior to the season. Including the injury excuse that would be brought out. We saw it before with 30+ year old DPs and aren't even the least bit shocked that he, joined by DeRo, is out.

In the end, whatever the history it doesn't matter. The team signed him.

So we have a 31 year old striker that missed a month of MLS action. The team is 1-3 in games (counting RSL) without him.

I am sure that even the most optimistic of the bunch doesn't expect that to be his last time on the trainers table. Outside of hoping he stays injury free for 4 years, the team had best plan for how to be effective without him for long (or short) stretches.

Whining and hope aren't strategies.

[Oldtimer]

So we have a 31 year old striker that missed a month of MLS action. The team is 1-3 in games (counting RSL) without him.

I am sure that even the most optimistic of the bunch doesn't expect that to be his last time on the trainers table. Outside of hoping he stays injury free for 4 years, the team had best plan for how to be effective without him for long (or short) stretches.

Whining and hope aren't strategies.

It looks like everyone has forgotten about Bright Dike. He was the plan, the backup for our older strikers. A young player like him being out for the season was totally unforseen.

[Pookie]

It looks like everyone has forgotten about Bright Dike. He was the plan, the backup for our older strikers. A young player like him being out for the season was totally unforseen.

I don't know about that. He missed months in 2013 with a torn ACL before we traded Urutti to the Timbers to get him. He was just weeks off that rehab when the trade was made and those injuries can be career ending. Unexpected, perhaps. Unfortunate, absolutely.

That's an interesting scenario you bring up. TFC trades Urutti to make room for Defoe. They get Dike. Both Dike and Defoe are on the trainer's table while Urutti is healthy and performing ok. (not lighting it up apparently but showing positive signs of adjusting according to Timber's press reports).

[pdogg]

Henry (21), Osorio (21), Bekker (23), Gilberto (24), Rey (24), Hall (25) - 6 players, all 25 and under, and at least 4 of them starters all went down with injuries.

Bradley (26), Dike (27) - both still relatively young - still under 30. That's 8 players now.

We've only had two players 30 and over injured (Defoe and De Rosario). To say our injuries have been age related is misleading when you look at the majority of the players are quite young and below our average age (25.21)

That's not to say you don't take additional risk with older players, however - it's just we've been extremely unlucky across the whole squad, to date.

[Pookie]

Henry (21), Osorio (21), Bekker (23), Gilberto (24), Rey (24), Hall (25) - 6 players, all 25 and under, and at least 4 of them starters all went down with injuries.

Bradley (26), Dike (27) - both still relatively young - still under 30. That's 8 players now.

We've only had two players 30 and over injured (Defoe and De Rosario). To say our injuries have been age related is misleading when you look at the majority of the players are quite young and below our average age (25.21)

That's not to say you don't take additional risk with older players, however - it's just we've been extremely unlucky across the whole squad, to date.

So true but the bulk of those guys have comparable replacements. Defoe doesn't. No one comes close to a healthy Defoe. Bradley too. But he just missed a game. Same with Gilberto.

What is true is that over the 6 games thus far this season TFC has had 2 DPs available for all but 1.

Orr, Jackson, Issey all are interchangeable with the young guys you note above. In fact, you could argue that Hall and Morgan really only impact the bench and have been leapfrogged a little in terms of depth.

[Canary10]

So true but the bulk of those guys have comparable replacements. Defoe doesn't. No one comes close to a healthy Defoe. Bradley too. But he just missed a game. Same with Gilberto.

What is true is that over the 6 games thus far this season TFC has had 2 DPs available for all but 1.

Orr, Jackson, Issey all are interchangeable with the young guys you note above. In fact, you could argue that Hall and Morgan really only impact the bench and have been leapfrogged a little in terms of depth.

I don't understand where you are going with all this. You are saying Defoe is so good, when he's hurt he can't be replaced? Well yeah. Just like when RvP is hurt Man United go from winning a championship to 7th. Or when Aguero is hurt Man City have their only goal scoring drought. Etc, etc. Is Defoe more injury prone? I'm not sure he is. Players of all ages get hurt (Aguero is 25). It sucks when your best player is hurt, at any level of play.

[Pookie]

^ I'm saying that the only injury that really hurts the team is Defoe.

And even then, TFC had 2 DPs available to them for 5 of 6 games.

Saying Hall is injured or we don't have Henry is overstating the importance of those players. The players that have stepped in are definitely comparable. Injuries to players other than the DPs should not, and do not, have a significant impact on the outcome.

Simply stop using injuries as an excuse.

[Canary10]

^ I'm saying that the only injury that really hurts the team is Defoe.

And even then, TFC had 2 DPs available to them for 5 of 6 games.

Saying Hall is injured or we don't have Henry is overstating the importance of those players. The players that have stepped in are definitely comparable. Injuries to players other than the DPs should not, and do not, have a significant impact on the outcome.

Simply stop using injuries as an excuse.

I see. I think we've done really well playing through the injuries. But I guess some on here expect 5-0 wins game in and game out.

[pdogg]

So true but the bulk of those guys have comparable replacements. Defoe doesn't. No one comes close to a healthy Defoe. Bradley too. But he just missed a game. Same with Gilberto.

What is true is that over the 6 games thus far this season TFC has had 2 DPs available for all but 1.

Orr, Jackson, Issey all are interchangeable with the young guys you note above. In fact, you could argue that Hall and Morgan really only impact the bench and have been leapfrogged a little in terms of depth.

I would agree with what you said, if the group had time to work together. Looking at the back line, right now, only Caldwell and Bloom have experience together prior to this season. Midfield is constantly changing game-to-game and the forwards are all brand new.

If there was some type of chemistry between the groups, then yes, we can slot Issey, Orr, & Hagglund into it, with minimal disruption.
But my point is not about slotting players in and out. My point is that our injury bug is not age related, as we've been hit right across the whole age spectrum.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Simply stop using injuries as an excuse.

But that's not what you're explaining. We can use injuries as an excuse as long as they are the right players, right? Or does this only apply after so many top players are injured?

[Pookie]

But that's not what you're explaining. We can use injuries as an excuse as long as they are the right players, right? Or does this only apply after so many top players are injured?

If the argument is that injuries have an impact on play, I counter by saying that only Defoe's injury should have an impact on play and even then, relative to the rest of the league, missing Defoe shouldn't hamper a team that is "fixed."

Most of the injuries have comparable substitutes. We can argue about the depth of the substitutes or even the starters but in terms of substituting Issey for Hall or Jackson for Rey or Orr for Henry, I'm ok with all of those.

As for Defoe hampering the performance of the team, only 5 other teams in the league have 3 DPs. Some like Columbus, Portland, SKC, Chicago, NE and San Jose only have 1. We have had 2 DPs for 5 of 6 games and at least 1 in all 6. Woe is TFC? BS.

TFC's injury woes are overstated.

And I'd argue that not having a back up plan to Defoe was pretty short sighted. Ok, ok, so maybe plan B was having Dike (fresh of a torn ACL) or DeRo (fresh of a torn MCL) and that was unfortunate that they are out.

In the end, Defoe is going to miss games. Figure it out.

Do I expect the team to be 6-0? No. Hell, I don't even realistically expect playoffs because the domestic core has to get better. However, I have no issue in holding Tim L accountable to playoffs because he told me and everyone here it's fixed.

You can't say "fixed" and then add a sub-clause a) when healthy.

[Lumpy]

Do I expect the team to be 6-0? No. Hell, I don't even realistically expect playoffs because the domestic core has to get better. However, I have no issue in holding Tim L accountable to playoffs because he told me and everyone here it's fixed.

You can't say "fixed" and then add a sub-clause a) when healthy.

Your discussion about the team being "fixed " or not is rather meaningless when we are only 6 games into the season and sitting in a playoff spot. While it is a good to stimulate discussion it is little more than that. If the team does make the playoffs and Defoe and the other older players play a major role in accomplishing that feat in which direction will you steer your platform towards ?

[Thomas]

But we have barely started the season. If we do make the playoffs (will be tough for sure, but doable) will you do the happy dance?

If the argument is that injuries have an impact on play, I counter by saying that only Defoe's injury should have an impact on play and even then, relative to the rest of the league, missing Defoe shouldn't hamper a team that is "fixed."

Most of the injuries have comparable substitutes. We can argue about the depth of the substitutes or even the starters but in terms of substituting Issey for Hall or Jackson for Rey or Orr for Henry, I'm ok with all of those.

As for Defoe hampering the performance of the team, only 5 other teams in the league have 3 DPs. Some like Columbus, Portland, SKC, Chicago, NE and San Jose only have 1. We have had 2 DPs for 5 of 6 games and at least 1 in all 6. Woe is TFC? BS.

TFC's injury woes are overstated.

And I'd argue that not having a back up plan to Defoe was pretty short sighted. Ok, ok, so maybe plan B was having Dike (fresh of a torn ACL) or DeRo (fresh of a torn MCL) and that was unfortunate that they are out.

In the end, Defoe is going to miss games. Figure it out.

Do I expect the team to be 6-0? No. Hell, I don't even realistically expect playoffs because the domestic core has to get better. However, I have no issue in holding Tim L accountable to playoffs because he told me and everyone here it's fixed.

You can't say "fixed" and then add a sub-clause a) when healthy.

[Pookie]

Your discussion about the team being "fixed " or not is rather meaningless when we are only 6 games into the season and sitting in a playoff spot. While it is a good to stimulate discussion it is little more than that. If the team does make the playoffs and Defoe and the other older players play a major role in accomplishing that feat in which direction will you steer your platform towards ?

My "platform" is always the same. It's focused on long term sustainability. Defoe and the older guys won't be here forever. Tim L might not either. I don't worry about that though as this is a band aid.

The real work comes next year. 2015, regardless of success in 2014, is about using the draft effectively. This team, as of today should have the best scouting staff in the league. We should be the Detroit Red Wings of MLS.

Players aren't coming from the Academy (for the most part) so that makes drafting critical. If success does come, those picks won't be high ones. They absolutely have to get that right. Our brief history in this league shows that you can't rely on waiver drafts, re-entry drafts and thus far at least, expensive Designated Players. A strong domestic core is what makes a great MLS team.

If Defoe gets them into the playoffs, I'll be in the same place that I was for all the CCL runs. In the stands… assuming I can afford "loyalty discounted" playoff prices

[Kaz]

^ I'm saying that the only injury that really hurts the team is Defoe.

And even then, TFC had 2 DPs available to them for 5 of 6 games.

Saying Hall is injured or we don't have Henry is overstating the importance of those players. The players that have stepped in are definitely comparable. Injuries to players other than the DPs should not, and do not, have a significant impact on the outcome.

Simply stop using injuries as an excuse.

There are a number of factors to one of our best starts to a season ever. Injuries is one of them.

In the last 8 seasons we have only come out of the first 6 games with more then a PPG of 1, 3 times. 2008 1.67, 2009 1.34 and this year 1.5

In 2008 we finished the first 10 games with a PPG of 1.7 ended the season at 1.16 in last place in the East and 13/14 in the league.

In 2009 we finished the first 10 games with a PPG of 1.3 ended the season at 1.30 in 5th place in the East and 12/15 in the league.

In our first 7 season we averaged at least 1 PPG over the first 10 games in all but 2 seasons (the last two) Yet only finished over a 1 PPG average 3 times.

This is a season long marathon, not a sprint.

Right now we are at 1.5 PPG not our best start. However there are three significant factors to this number not being higher.

1) Injuries - we've had a crap load of them, Defoe is just one add Dike in and it's an issue... Dike's history should have been a warning sign, Urrti was an issue due to the cap space issue in the past, this is likely our first season since MO we haven't been screwed by the cap, I figured it will be at least another if not 2 more years to get our depth worked out because of that.

2) Schedule - 5 of our 6 games have been against the 5 strongest starting clubs in the league.

3) New players - Gilberto for example has way too much pressure on him because he doesn't have back up. DeRo has been starting and he should be a super sub. Weids is paid way too much for his roll and performance.

The reality of all of this is yes it means we have had two loses that should have been ties or wins, we should be looking at our strongest start ever, instead we are looking at our second strongest.

If we maintain a Win then a loss all season that is 51 points and a play off spot.

Lets see how we do next week. or at least lets see where we are at 10 games, and after the world cup.

[ManUtd4ever]

For the record, Leiweke clarified at the recent Brendan Shanahan introductory press conference that TFC is still a work in progress.

I seriously doubt that he is under any illusions that the club is "fixed" in the literal sense. However, he has put the franchise in a much better position to succeed in comparison to previous regimes.

[Pookie]

For the record, Leiweke clarified at the recent Brendan Shanahan introductory press conference that TFC is still a work in progress.

I seriously doubt that he is under any illusions that the club is "fixed" in the literal sense. However, he has put the franchise in a much better position to succeed in comparison to previous regimes.

Honest question.

What resources has he put into scouting?

I see that they finally took Pat Onstead's name down off the website as Chief Scout. That only took 3 months. Only reference to scouting I see on the website is Issa Tall, a "Coorindator International Scouting" who is also an Academy Coach. God bless him as that is difficult given the Academy trains 4-5 days a week.

O'Leary is listed as a "Director of Player Recruitment" which I guess could be linked to scouting?

Any press releases on scouting… anywhere?

[Fort York Redcoat]

?

Any press releases on scouting… anywhere?

Anywhere in MLS? Cause I'd like to know that as well. How other teams in our league handle transparency on scouting.

[Phil]

They specifically stay quiet on the scouting front. I know they have resources out there but its a closed world in MLS from what I have seen.

[brad]

I though the league did the scouting predominantly.

[jloome]

I though the league did the scouting predominantly.

The league has scouting but so do the teams. TFC seems to hire people on a freelance basis quite frequently.

Scouting is a bigger issue than TFC. The league is very poorly structured for finding young, affordable S.A. and C.A. talent because of the initial focus on being developmental for U.S. soccer.

The best young players in both regions are snapped up by teams in Mexico, Argentina and Brazil as soon as they start to show something professionally, usually at ages 16 and up; their performances are actually quite identifiable and trackable via online stat database, which could then be used to determine scouting shortlists, but most of them are never approached by MLS.

I don't know why this is, quite honestly. I'm not qualified to scout pros, but have shortlisted numerous young players over the last seven years who have gone on to major success, sometimes years before they're bought by a bigger club. And yet MLS never seems to be in the picture for any of them (except for Kekuteh Manneh, but he was in Texas, so that doesn't really count.)

Perhaps they're trying to avoid salary wars with richer leagues or owners in the other leagues, I don't know. But from a pure perception standpoint, the league's scouting is either pretty piss poor or extremely hampered by their own agenda with respect to American development.

[Yohan]

The league has scouting but so do the teams. TFC seems to hire people on a freelance basis quite frequently.

Scouting is a bigger issue than TFC. The league is very poorly structured for finding young, affordable S.A. and C.A. talent because of the initial focus on being developmental for U.S. soccer.

The best young players in both regions are snapped up by teams in Mexico, Argentina and Brazil as soon as they start to show something professionally, usually at ages 16 and up; their performances are actually quite identifiable and trackable via online stat database, which could then be used to determine scouting shortlists, but most of them are never approached by MLS.

I don't know why this is, quite honestly. I'm not qualified to scout pros, but have shortlisted numerous young players over the last seven years who have gone on to major success, sometimes years before they're bought by a bigger club. And yet MLS never seems to be in the picture for any of them (except for Kekuteh Manneh, but he was in Texas, so that doesn't really count.)

Perhaps they're trying to avoid salary wars with richer leagues or owners in the other leagues, I don't know. But from a pure perception standpoint, the league's scouting is either pretty piss poor or extremely hampered by their own agenda with respect to American development.

does MLS follow FIFA rule of not being allowed to sign players younger than 18 w/o domestic work permit or citizenship?

[molenshtain]

I'm fairly sure TL meant fixed in the long term, which is undeniable. He said playoffs this year, and we'll probably get playoffs. I'm not sure what you're griping about pookie.

[jloome]

does MLS follow FIFA rule of not being allowed to sign players younger than 18 w/o domestic work permit or citizenship?

It does. I think Mexico does, too, but they sign a lot of 17 year olds to pre-contracts six months before their 18th.

[Dunkers]

http://sagarin.com/sports/soccer.htm

with respect to the injuries...you can say what you want, but I think the fact that Toronto has had the toughest schedule to date in the MLS and is still sitting @ .500 says something about how far this team has come. Back in the "worst team in the world" days, if we played 5 of the top 6 teams in the leauge, how many points would we expect? 2....3!?!? We have 9! could we have more, sure, but 9 is not bad at all!

[jazzy]

on the red bulls / houston game tonight it was brought up the depth of the red bulls international scouting in europe central america and America....the 'scouts' seemed to have very diverse experienced backgrounds as well . BTW if we were soundly beaten by NY 4-0 as Houston were tonight we would be screaming mercy . And Houston started off very strong . And I have a theory that the many injuries in our league are not helped by the horrible officiating . Tonight a studs up tackle to the groin wasn't even a caution , pathetic .