Matchday 5: Colorado at Toronto, Sat 12 April 4PM EST

[MightyDM]

Just a quick comment RE the constantly heard "this guy & this guy and & guy are crap, have to go immediately." Almost never coupled with suggestion regarding who they should be replaced with (i.e., similar or lower salary; possibly available; compatible position & playing style; etc.)

I've heard that said SO many times over the last 7 years, and I'm so sick of it. I remember it being said about Dan Gargan; Nathan Sturgis; Marvell Wynne; Jacob Peterson; Quincy Amerikwa; Chad Barrett; Nana Attakora; Jeff Cunningham; Hunter Freeman; Alan Gordon; Ty Harden; Julius James; Ryan Johnson; Aaron Maund; Joseph Nane; Jacob Peterson; Maicon Santos; Tony Tchani; O'Brien White; and others.

What's the common thread? All of those guys went on to have successful careers at other MLS teams that were much better than TFC. Some even as starters. Others as bench players & cover for possible injuries and absences (which are the only roles guys like Jeremy Hall and Andrew Wiedeman are supposed to have at TFC at the moment). Especially if players have US citizenship or Green Card, most of them are valuable within MLS.

Successful teams in MLS are built heavily on patience, on continuity; on finding systems & positions that work for the less-than-perfect players which are the norm in MLS. (Plus of course also on good scouting, good drafting, reasonable contracts; useful DPs, plus other star players on reasonable contracts -- none of which TFC has been good at.) They aren't built on constantly pressing the eject button.

TOTALLY AGREE! well said.

[MightyDM]

OH aside to this.. This was my first game at BMO since October 2011 (it's been way too long) There was still a long trail of people still walking into the stadium 10-15 minutes after kick off... I actually had people in my row showing up half way through the first half.

This is why the stadium looks empty all the time.. People aren't showing up, and then a bunch more disappear part way through.. a whole row complete disappeared about half time and didn't seem to come back.

I don't know how many people fit into the North End Bar, but I'm willing to bet it's a few hundred.

I think you combine these factors and you ended up having the stadium seem less full.

We attendance they of course announce seats sold.. I had a empty seat beside me... so 22591 is either a lie.. or their are more then 22591 seats in the stadium that can be sold.

I bought a $25 ticket at 7pm Friday.

I also won't sit in 219 again.

But the view from the 200s was surprisingly good... I'd sit up top again 221 to 225 would likely get a decent experience. And the people in those seats seemed to actually show up on time.

Showing up on time is a big issue, IMHO. and that's on us as supporters, not on MLSE.

[ag futbol]

Just a quick comment RE the constantly heard "this guy & this guy and & guy are crap, have to go immediately." Almost never coupled with suggestion regarding who they should be replaced with (i.e., similar or lower salary; possibly available; compatible position & playing style; etc.)

I've heard that said SO many times over the last 7 years, and I'm so sick of it. I remember it being said about Dan Gargan; Nathan Sturgis; Marvell Wynne; Jacob Peterson; Quincy Amerikwa; Chad Barrett; Nana Attakora; Jeff Cunningham; Hunter Freeman; Alan Gordon; Ty Harden; Julius James; Ryan Johnson; Aaron Maund; Joseph Nane; Jacob Peterson; Maicon Santos; Tony Tchani; O'Brien White; and others.

What's the common thread? All of those guys went on to have successful careers at other MLS teams that were much better than TFC. Some even as starters. Others as bench players & cover for possible injuries and absences (which are the only roles guys like Jeremy Hall and Andrew Wiedeman are supposed to have at TFC at the moment). Especially if players have US citizenship or Green Card, most of them are valuable within MLS.

Successful teams in MLS are built heavily on patience, on continuity; on finding systems & positions that work for the less-than-perfect players which are the norm in MLS. (Plus of course also on good scouting, good drafting, reasonable contracts; useful DPs, plus other star players on reasonable contracts -- none of which TFC has been good at.) They aren't built on constantly pressing the eject button.

I see a bit of everything on that list. I'd struggle to call Gargan or White successful. Barrett exists, much like he did here, but in a greatly reduced role that actually matches his talent level. Freeman was always a rental.

The others legitimately were shipped off too easily. Personally I think if you're a weeds or a Hall you get a season or two in order to figure it out but after that it's time to move. In the past we lacked the ability to differentiate between what was wasted effort giving time to lost causes and guys with actual potential. The ability of the coaching staff to play guys in positions that matched their talent was atrocious as well ( Santos as an attacking mid).

I actually have a decent amount of faith in Nelsen in this regard. I may not agree with a lot of what he does, but he looks to hit the mark pretty often in recognizing who will work and who won't.

[adam1001]

Just a quick comment RE the constantly heard "this guy & this guy and & guy are crap, have to go immediately." Almost never coupled with suggestion regarding who they should be replaced with (i.e., similar or lower salary; possibly available; compatible position & playing style; etc.)

I've heard that said SO many times over the last 7 years, and I'm so sick of it. I remember it being said about Dan Gargan; Nathan Sturgis; Marvell Wynne; Jacob Peterson; Quincy Amerikwa; Chad Barrett; Nana Attakora; Jeff Cunningham; Hunter Freeman; Alan Gordon; Ty Harden; Julius James; Ryan Johnson; Aaron Maund; Joseph Nane; Jacob Peterson; Maicon Santos; Tony Tchani; O'Brien White; and others.

What's the common thread? All of those guys went on to have successful careers at other MLS teams that were much better than TFC. Some even as starters. Others as bench players & cover for possible injuries and absences (which are the only roles guys like Jeremy Hall and Andrew Wiedeman are supposed to have at TFC at the moment). Especially if players have US citizenship or Green Card, most of them are valuable within MLS.

Successful teams in MLS are built heavily on patience, on continuity; on finding systems & positions that work for the less-than-perfect players which are the norm in MLS. (Plus of course also on good scouting, good drafting, reasonable contracts; useful DPs, plus other star players on reasonable contracts -- none of which TFC has been good at.) They aren't built on constantly pressing the eject button.

I think a lot of people compare player performances to salary hit. It's a cost benefit analysis. I have no problems with Weideman taking a depth role at his cap hit, but I do have a problem with players like Cunningham who did jack shit and took a big chunk out of the cap. Whether they perform better at other clubs is not my concern. If it's not working out in Toronto for whatever reason, it's time to look at other options.

For what it's worth, I was a fan of a solid half of your list.

[nonc]

Impossible yes, but Laba is a hell of a lot better than Hall, is he better and more valauble to the team than Gilberto, I'd say so, so far.

The trade off for Laba was Bradley, not Gilberto.

people seem to love to forget this.

People also seem to forget that Gilberto was a panic signing, you're naive if you don't think optics came into play; Bez and Leiwecke would look like clowns for moving away the bigger contract they just signed to much more media fanfare then Laba. It wasn't Bradley for Laba by default due to position, since that makes just as much squad sense as 2 DP strikers for a number of reasons. One being, Oso plays wing and you have Oso and Bekker as CM depth instead of Hall.

[Auzzy]

I see a bit of everything on that list. I'd struggle to call Gargan or White successful. Barrett exists, much like he did here, but in a greatly reduced role that actually matches his talent level. Freeman was always a rental.

The others legitimately were shipped off too easily. Personally I think if you're a weeds or a Hall you get a season or two in order to figure it out but after that it's time to move. In the past we lacked the ability to differentiate between what was wasted effort giving time to lost causes and guys with actual potential. The ability of the coaching staff to play guys in positions that matched their talent was atrocious as well ( Santos as an attacking mid).
I actually have a decent amount of faith in Nelsen in this regard. I may not agree with a lot of what he does, but he looks to hit the mark pretty often in recognizing who will work and who won't.

Successful relative to their skills and potential, of course. It's been a few years since Gargan left, but he played 31 games for Chicago. This season he started & played 85 minutes for the Galaxy, helping to setup a Robbie Keane goal.

And Barrett just setup Dempsey's last-minute game-winning goal for Seattle, visiting the (previously undefeated) FC Dallas.

I don't normally actively look up ex-TFC players, but it's amazing how often they pop up in some highlight reel. Even if it's Stefan Frei watching the ball bounce over his head in the same Seattle - Denver game...

[T-boy]

FWIW, I thought we got what I would expect from this game, given we had $1m worth of cap space players injured for the game.

The positives is that the defence largely looks very solid this season. Bloom and Morrow are very solid at FB. Orr is looking a very good alternative at CB, he looks like a good pick up for this season.

I won't crap on Hall, I think he was fine. The problem was that he's trying to replace Bradley (best box to box midfielder in the league), which he can't do - in fact, nobody is going to replace Bradley! Whoever ends up in that position will never make up for Bradley's loss in any game.

The main issue was the front 4 - Gilberto, DeRo, Issey, and Jackson. There wasn't enough movement, especially out wide. I saw Morrow and especially Bloom break down the wing, and when they needed a diagonal run from any of the 4 players, they were all static. That meant that the FB's were left isolated and couldn't do anything with the ball. The distribution from the two centre backs was poor, but the lack of movement up front didn't help.

Bekker was pretty good, but my MOTM was Bloom who offered a lot at the back and some options down the wing, put in a couple of good crosses.

As far as I can see, Nelson is doing what is typical of a new manager (who used to be a defender) - creating a team who is initially hard to beat and strong at the back. That's really the easy part - the hard part is then making a "difficult to beat" team into a "winning attacking team". He's going to need his best offensive players (Bradley, Osorio, and Defoe) on the pitch tho. Without those guys, we are going to struggle to create chances.

[notthesun]

People also seem to forget that Gilberto was a panic signing

Huh?

[Ivy]

People also seem to forget that Gilberto was a panic signing, you're naive if you don't think optics came into play; Bez and Leiwecke would look like clowns for moving away the bigger contract they just signed to much more media fanfare then Laba. It wasn't Bradley for Laba by default due to position, since that makes just as much squad sense as 2 DP strikers for a number of reasons. One being, Oso plays wing and you have Oso and Bekker as CM depth instead of Hall.

I read that 3 times, and I still don't understand what you're saying.

[GuelphStorm2007]

Wth 5 regulars out We did okay But I am still P/O with the loss . Colorado hardly did nothing but got A lucky goal We are still a team in Transition I believe and we are on the right track. The best thing I got from this game is the emergence of Bekker . Good for both TFC and Team Canada.

[pawlukj]

theres nothing wrong with a loss but its all about what the team makes of it afterwards... losses are going to come, its inevitable, and for a L, id say we played actually not bad (yes for the millionth time we were missing our star players). now if the team can trim the slack from what appeared on this game, and use it to build momentum, adding defoe bradley then no problem no harm done

[GuelphStorm2007]

theres nothing wrong with a loss but its all about what the team makes of it afterwards... losses are going to come, its inevitable, and for a L, id say we played actually not bad (yes for the millionth time we were missing our star players). now if the team can trim the slack from what appeared on this game, and use it to build momentum, adding defoe bradley then no problem no harm done

Well said I totally agree

[nonc]

Huh?

I read that 3 times, and I still don't understand what you're saying.

Let me simplify. If Bradley and Defoe were signed before Gilberto, does anyone really believe Laba would have been cast aside in order to sign Gilberto? Highly doubtful to put it mildly. (I'm not trying to hate on Gilberto, I think he'll be fine.)

Gilberto was signed when it became clear the A-list target was not going to materialize as soon as initially thought. Lieweke had promised an earth shattering striker within a certain timeframe, he not only said it he repeated it over and over for affect. It didn't occur so Gilberto happened, which was a good diversion and kept his head above water with media and fans for the extra month it took to sign Defoe. Then Bradley fell on our lap. They were never going to move Gilberto because it would show that he was a panic signing and raise doubts about future player movement. The fact that Laba is DM was irrelevant to the decision, it's not part of any philosophy other than they didn't want to look like chumps for transferring the player whom they just got, hyped, and spent a lot more money on than Laba.

Hell, in addition to the wing option Osorio could've played in the middle with Bradley, above Laba, which is more natural for both. Even Jackson and Rey could still be on the field with 1 striker. This "Laba was sent because he's redundant" argument that has been said here a hundred times doesn't even make sense. Yeah, giving Bradley more offensive freedom and less defensive responsibility would've definitely thrown a monkey wrench in the works...

[Canary10]

Let me simplify. If Bradley and Defoe were signed before Gilberto, does anyone really believe Laba would have been cast aside in order to sign Gilberto? Highly doubtful to put it mildly. (I'm not trying to hate on Gilberto, I think he'll be fine.)

Gilberto was signed when it became clear the A-list target was not going to materialize as soon as initially thought. Lieweke had promised an earth shattering striker within a certain timeframe, he not only said it he repeated it over and over for affect. It didn't occur so Gilberto happened, which was a good diversion and kept his head above water with media and fans for the extra month it took to sign Defoe. Then Bradley fell on our lap. They were never going to move Gilberto because it would show that he was a panic signing and raise doubts about future player movement. The fact that Laba is DM was irrelevant to the decision, it's not part of any philosophy other than they didn't want to look like chumps for transferring the player whom they just got, hyped, and spent a lot more money on than Laba.

Hell, in addition to the wing option Osorio could've played in the middle with Bradley, above Laba, which is more natural for both. Even Jackson and Rey could still be on the field with 1 striker. This "Laba was sent because he's redundant" argument that has been said here a hundred times doesn't even make sense. Yeah, giving Bradley more offensive freedom and less defensive responsibility would've definitely thrown a monkey wrench in the works...

I've often wondered if this was the case. Leiweke and Bez were under a lot of pressure to show something to supporters (and in particular the renewing season ticket holders) by the end of the year. Even the way the press conference happened it looked unplanned. It did have the air of shit, we have to do something. But, did they not know by December that Defoe was in the bag even if he couldn't sign until the January transfer window opened?

[Red Skies At Night]

People also seem to forget that Gilberto was a panic signing.

It was? Tim L said they were going after one established DP striker and one young DP striker. That is why they signed Gilberto. He ticked the young DP striker box. They were always going to sign a young DP striker, so there was no way which ever one they signed was then going to be moved on for another DP right away (even if it was Bradley).

What I find funny about people who are struggling with losing Laba (supposedly because of Gilberto) is that if it came out after the fact that the club could have had Bradley but turned him down due to already having a midfield DP in Laba, people would have lost their shit, accusing the club of lack of ammbition, etc!!!! Oh well, damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess, because they were always going to sign a young DP striker, so there was no way which ever one they signed was then going to be moved on for another DP right away (even if it was Bradley).

[notthesun]

I've often wondered if this was the case. Leiweke and Bez were under a lot of pressure to show something to supporters (and in particular the renewing season ticket holders) by the end of the year. Even the way the press conference happened it looked unplanned. It did have the air of shit, we have to do something. But, did they not know by December that Defoe was in the bag even if he couldn't sign until the January transfer window opened?

According to Cathal Kelly's article, the paperwork was officially signed December 16th, and the deal was "functionally done" a month earlier.

Sorry nonc, but what you've said is incorrect. Gilberto was in no way a panic signing. Defoe was in the bag long before Gilberto was signed, he just couldn't be revealed out of respect for Tottenham and the transfer window.

[OgtheDim]

...But, did they not know by December that Defoe was in the bag even if he couldn't sign until the January transfer window opened?

Pictures were taken in London of Defoe in a TFC shirt...in mid December. Its there in the All for One First Episode.

Gilberto was not a panic buy.

[Red4ever]

Let me simplify. If Bradley and Defoe were signed before Gilberto, does anyone really believe Laba would have been cast aside in order to sign Gilberto? Highly doubtful to put it mildly. (I'm not trying to hate on Gilberto, I think he'll be fine.)

Gilberto was signed when it became clear the A-list target was not going to materialize as soon as initially thought. Lieweke had promised an earth shattering striker within a certain timeframe, he not only said it he repeated it over and over for affect. It didn't occur so Gilberto happened, which was a good diversion and kept his head above water with media and fans for the extra month it took to sign Defoe. Then Bradley fell on our lap. They were never going to move Gilberto because it would show that he was a panic signing and raise doubts about future player movement. The fact that Laba is DM was irrelevant to the decision, it's not part of any philosophy other than they didn't want to look like chumps for transferring the player whom they just got, hyped, and spent a lot more money on than Laba.

Hell, in addition to the wing option Osorio could've played in the middle with Bradley, above Laba, which is more natural for both. Even Jackson and Rey could still be on the field with 1 striker. This "Laba was sent because he's redundant" argument that has been said here a hundred times doesn't even make sense. Yeah, giving Bradley more offensive freedom and less defensive responsibility would've definitely thrown a monkey wrench in the works...

Don't agree with your panic point but agree 100% with what I have bolded. We had Dike at the time I think that he was certainly a better option as a backup striker than bekker or hall as a backup midfielder, with benefit of hindsight.

Anyway, a lot of hypotheticals at play, but my point is (in this thread and others), our buy into gilberto too early ended up costing us midfielder. One that we desperately need now.

[brad]

Let me simplify. If Bradley and Defoe were signed before Gilberto, does anyone really believe Laba would have been cast aside in order to sign Gilberto? Highly doubtful to put it mildly. (I'm not trying to hate on Gilberto, I think he'll be fine.)

Gilberto was signed when it became clear the A-list target was not going to materialize as soon as initially thought. Lieweke had promised an earth shattering striker within a certain timeframe, he not only said it he repeated it over and over for affect. It didn't occur so Gilberto happened, which was a good diversion and kept his head above water with media and fans for the extra month it took to sign Defoe. Then Bradley fell on our lap. They were never going to move Gilberto because it would show that he was a panic signing and raise doubts about future player movement. The fact that Laba is DM was irrelevant to the decision, it's not part of any philosophy other than they didn't want to look like chumps for transferring the player whom they just got, hyped, and spent a lot more money on than Laba.

Hell, in addition to the wing option Osorio could've played in the middle with Bradley, above Laba, which is more natural for both. Even Jackson and Rey could still be on the field with 1 striker. This "Laba was sent because he's redundant" argument that has been said here a hundred times doesn't even make sense. Yeah, giving Bradley more offensive freedom and less defensive responsibility would've definitely thrown a monkey wrench in the works...

I've often wondered if this was the case. Leiweke and Bez were under a lot of pressure to show something to supporters (and in particular the renewing season ticket holders) by the end of the year. Even the way the press conference happened it looked unplanned. It did have the air of shit, we have to do something. But, did they not know by December that Defoe was in the bag even if he couldn't sign until the January transfer window opened?

Not the case. The plan was always to sign an A+ level DP and a lesser know one.

[pdogg]

Don't agree with your panic point but agree 100% with what I have bolded. We had Dike at the time I think that he was certainly a better option as a backup striker than bekker or hall as a backup midfielder, with benefit of hindsight.

Anyway, a lot of hypotheticals at play, but my point is (in this thread and others), our buy into gilberto too early ended up costing us midfielder. One that we desperately need now.

I would think that our weakness right now would be options at the striker position, not in midfield. Imagine Laba still patrolling the midfield, passing up to Weideman or Hamilton? That would be the situation right now if we had him instead of Gilberto.

[Red4ever]

I often imagine that and to me that's preferable. Again, I'm sure others disagree, this is after all the internet

But I'm sure we would have found another striker over those two had Gilberto never existed.

[T-boy]

I would think that our weakness right now would be options at the striker position, not in midfield. Imagine Laba still patrolling the midfield, passing up to Weideman or Hamilton? That would be the situation right now if we had him instead of Gilberto.

I agree with this. This is a cap league, if you gain one thing you almost always have to give up something else.

[Ivy]

I'll second the posters above. TFC was always going to sign 2 DP strikers. From day one it was an A list and B list. Defoe deal was done LONG before it was announced in January, and actually before Gilberto was even announced. As mentioned, it was Bradley's situation that left Laba out, no need to spin and twist it for more than it actually is.

[brad]

I'll second the posters above. TFC was always going to sign 2 DP strikers. From day one it was an A list and B list. Defoe deal was done LONG before it was announced in January, and actually before Gilberto was even announced. As mentioned, it was Bradley's situation that left Laba out, no need to spin and twist it for more than it actually is.

And this is an important point to remember when people want to see us play something other than 4-4-2. You sign 2 DP strikers, you play with 2 up front every time they are fit.