Matchday 3 : TFC at Real Salt Lake, Sat March 29 9:30PM EST

[ag futbol]

I'd point out possession can be used for multiple purposes. Some teams actually use it to have "quiet periods" where they look to recover energy. Others simply use it to find their team shape before they directly attack the opposition.

I don't mind losing on the possession stats. But the amount of long ball needs to be cut down and we need to attack as a team and not just through our strikers.

If we pay attention to the right things it should be do-able. Towards the end of last year we had some good games where we actually broke down the other team when they were defensively set. Osorio, Rey, and some others played well... And we did that without any sort of effective striker.

[Red Skies At Night]

Allowing morales the space to dictate the game was killing us. I don't understand why nelsen at least didn't adjust his tactics to try and stem morales influence on the game. having hall man-mark him might have made his life a bit more difficult, perhaps allowing bradley to battle beckerman for the midfield dominance. instead beckerman just passed around bradley to morales, who was constantly alone in the pocket... hopefully this was just nelsen working things out early, but we can't be losing the tactical battles evry week and expect to win... here's hoping we have a better game plan for columbus.

[Pookie]

Interesting stat here:

We have the worst pass completion percentage in the league. We have misplaced 250 of 810 passes - for a pass completion percentage of 69.1%. That is a not a good indication at all.

EDIT: this is stat encompasses all 3 of our games, not just RSL

Yep.

It goes back to earlier threads we all chimed in on. They will exploit our weakness and press our non-DPs to turn the ball over or make an errant pass. By covering our DPs, they also eliminate a pass option.

Successful MLS teams have a solid US Domestic core. That hasn't changed in this supposed MLS 3.0

[Initial B]

... here's hoping we have a better game plan for columbus.

They won't. I think it will be 4-4-2 all season, with Nelsen hammering the formation into their heads so they can play it in their sleep. Then maybe we'll see Nelsen start to change it up a bit for when NYCFC and Orlando come into the league.

[Richard]

I don't buy the possession argument from Nelsen. Good teams are able to switch between possession and counter attack on the fly, you cant play counter attack all game with less than 40% possession, we are not the Italian national team with world class athletes who can defend and counter for a full 90 min under pressure.

I understand the team hasn't been together long enough to have good cohesion but that shouldn't be an excuse to not care about possession, it seems all we do is try to find the quick out let, the team needs to slow it down and take a breather otherwise we will get pummelled. The tactic didn't work against RSL because we kept chasing the ball, playing at high altitude completely put us at a disadvantage and maybe if we could have strung 5 passes together the players wouldn't have been dead tired.

Otherwise I'm not worried by this result, to soon to tell if we are a good or bad team yet. I just hope we don't play this same tactic the entire season.

[Cambassador]

Possession wins games in the long run. Successful teams find a way to maintain the ball and create quality chances consistently. TFC really struggle to develop organic scoring changes, instead we have capitalized on errors or lucky through balls that Defoe has put away with skill.

If we want to start winning big games and solidify our position in the league it will start with improving that horrendous passing percentage and getting penetration down field through the flanks and not playing kick and run.

[Yohan]

Allowing morales the space to dictate the game was killing us. I don't understand why nelsen at least didn't adjust his tactics to try and stem morales influence on the game. having hall man-mark him might have made his life a bit more difficult, perhaps allowing bradley to battle beckerman for the midfield dominance. instead beckerman just passed around bradley to morales, who was constantly alone in the pocket... hopefully this was just nelsen working things out early, but we can't be losing the tactical battles evry week and expect to win... here's hoping we have a better game plan for columbus.

If you use the 2 CMs to mark Morales and Beckerman, you leave Gil and Grabavoy open. Those 2 can also pass the ball, esp Gil, who is going to be a regular for USMNT soon.

I suppose you can pinch in the 2 wingers to mark Gil and Grabavoy and use the FBs as wingbacks to be aggressive in defence when Wingert and Beltran pushes forward, but I don't think TFC is drilled well enough to be able to do this.

Bradley is best used in some sort of free role defensively, because with his high anticipation, he can shut down passes through the middle rather than be wasted man marking someone.

[Yohan]

I don't buy the possession argument from Nelsen. Good teams are able to switch between possession and counter attack on the fly, you cant play counter attack all game with less than 40% possession, we are not the Italian national team with world class athletes who can defend and counter for a full 90 min under pressure.

I understand the team hasn't been together long enough to have good cohesion but that shouldn't be an excuse to not care about possession, it seems all we do is try to find the quick out let, the team needs to slow it down and take a breather otherwise we will get pummelled. The tactic didn't work against RSL because we kept chasing the ball, playing at high altitude completely put us at a disadvantage and maybe if we could have strung 5 passes together the players wouldn't have been dead tired.

Otherwise I'm not worried by this result, to soon to tell if we are a good or bad team yet. I just hope we don't play this same tactic the entire season.

We're not a good team. We will be a good team once we can fully integrate the DPs with the rest of the team.

It almost feels like Defoe/Oso/Bradley is on one page, and the rest of the team is on another. And team chemistry takes time to develop.
With 2 CMs, your defenders needs to be comfortable with the ball to be able to cycle the ball through the backline. Henry can learn, and has learned a lot. The other guys needs work.
You will get higher efficiency with possession with team chemistry, and your scrubs are fully integrated into the system. We don't have that yet. (see how Seattle and RSL integrates their scrubs not necessarily with technique, but with well drilled system)

[ag futbol]

Allowing morales the space to dictate the game was killing us. I don't understand why nelsen at least didn't adjust his tactics to try and stem morales influence on the game. having hall man-mark him might have made his life a bit more difficult, perhaps allowing bradley to battle beckerman for the midfield dominance. instead beckerman just passed around bradley to morales, who was constantly alone in the pocket... hopefully this was just nelsen working things out early, but we can't be losing the tactical battles evry week and expect to win... here's hoping we have a better game plan for columbus.

Hall was (trying) to man mark him. The issue is players as savvy as Morales use that to their advantage by dragging you all over the place and impacting your team shape. The way a lot of teams deal with this is have most players zonally mark but use the DMs to man mark. So that way the playmakers looks up sees a man on him and sees his passing lanes are closed. The 4-2-3-1 shapes up a lot better than the 4-4-2 in that regard because central playmakers feed off that space between your defensive lines.

Even the pully system... You need two excellent mids to play that way. Osorio is simply not capable of covering that much ground if Bradley pinches forward. It's tough, I think that's a major reason a lot of teams out there have abandoned the idea of two pivoting midfielders.

[trane]

I don't buy the possession argument from Nelsen. Good teams are able to switch between possession and counter attack on the fly, you cant play counter attack all game with less than 40% possession, we are not the Italian national team with world class athletes who can defend and counter for a full 90 min under pressure.

I understand the team hasn't been together long enough to have good cohesion but that shouldn't be an excuse to not care about possession, it seems all we do is try to find the quick out let, the team needs to slow it down and take a breather otherwise we will get pummelled. The tactic didn't work against RSL because we kept chasing the ball, playing at high altitude completely put us at a disadvantage and maybe if we could have strung 5 passes together the players wouldn't have been dead tired.

Otherwise I'm not worried by this result, to soon to tell if we are a good or bad team yet. I just hope we don't play this same tactic the entire season.

I love our style of play, and it will win us the league. But when you play it, you cannot be off, you have to be keyed in defensively at all times, and you have to be effective on the counter and not lose opportunities.

I do not like to single one player out, but I have too, alot of our problem was Osario v Hall, Hall was really out it, when he did win the ball, or get the ball, he would pass it to were the man used to be and not to were the man was, this coupled with Bradley having to play rely high up lost the effectiveness of the mid, and as they were playing a tight diamond, the got to dominate the midfield. Plus as I said earlier, we were a combination of a step behind in attack, and overaggressive in defense. But I still think we bet them when we play them again, and the 3-0 is a bit flattering on them.

[trane]

Hall was (trying) to man mark him. The issue is players as savvy as Morales use that to their advantage by dragging you all over the place and impacting your team shape. The way a lot of teams deal with this is have most players zonally mark but use the DMs to man mark. So that way the playmakers looks up sees a man on him and sees his passing lanes are closed. The 4-2-3-1 shapes up a lot better than the 4-4-2 in that regard because central playmakers feed off that space between your defensive lines.

Even the pully system... You need two excellent mids to play that way. Osorio is simply not capable of covering that much ground if Bradley pinches forward. It's tough, I think that's a major reason a lot of teams out there have abandoned the idea of two pivoting midfielders.

I do not like it, I like a clear demarcation or roles, leads to less mistake. For me, Osario can play high like a cross between a AM and a CM, and Bradley needs to stay back direct everything from just ahead of the defense. That is were he is the most effective, he can dominate games, a cross between Pirlo and De Rossi. The wingers need to play more in defensively like a 4-3-1-2, wide but not so wide that it creates space between them and the two center players.

[trane]

Good defensive counterattacking football stars with a good compact shape and well define roles, so everyone knows exactly what to do defensively cutting down space, and offensively they can brake out into attack quickly and efficiently. so if you are the cdm that got that ball, you know the moment you get the ball were you should be looking to hit your wide players and or strikers with a pass.

To be honest we are getting there and I am liking it. Sorry, I cannot be negative, for the first time in years I like most of what I see.

[ag futbol]

I do not like it, I like a clear demarcation or roles, leads to less mistake. For me, Osario can play high like a cross between a AM and a CM, and Bradley needs to stay back direct everything from just ahead of the defense. That is were he is the most effective, he can dominate games, a cross between Pirlo and De Rossi. The wingers need to play more in defensively like a 4-3-1-2, wide but not so wide that it creates space between them and the two center players.

Agreed.

Personally, I would go out and get a defensive mid to play next to Bradley and let Osorio go out to the wing (assuming we are staying 442, otherwise this coversation goes in multiple different directions). Make the other player the anchor defensive mid and let Bradley go box-to-box, no pivots. I can see the argument to make him a holder as well, that at least allows is to benefit from him attack wise while keeping him in front of the backline.

To me a lot of this is about our team being a collection of players that 1) don't necessarily fit a 442. 2). Don't necessary fit with each other, but are individually talented.

Edit: let me say I also agree with what you wrote above. Overall things are favourable, they just need some tweaking. I'll take being in this spot any day of the week.

[speckles]

And that is why they tried everything to keep laba..this is not lost on management.

[trane]

^ Iwas going to say that Laba would have been great. Laba, Bradley and Osario would have been a great trio in the mid.

[ExiledRed]

But I still think we bet them when we play them again, and the 3-0 is a bit flattering on them.

We don't play them again.

I actually dont like the idea of playing the western teams only once in a season, but it has to be said, watching our players stumbling around BMO field exhausted because they'd just been on a three week, seven game road trip covering the entire continent, was getting old.

Because of the new east/west rules, we only have two more road trips against western teams, (LA and Dallas, and we should probably expect to get nothing from those games either.) We don't have to do the Denver Dick this year so altitude is not a factor in any more games.

We have fewer excuses than ever, we can afford them the altitude one, once a season.

Good to see you're still around you bluenosed toffee prat

[Alonso]

Good defensive counterattacking football stars with a good compact shape and well define roles, so everyone knows exactly what to do defensively cutting down space, and offensively they can brake out into attack quickly and efficiently. so if you are the cdm that got that ball, you know the moment you get the ball were you should be looking to hit your wide players and or strikers with a pass.

To be honest we are getting there and I am liking it. Sorry, I cannot be negative, for the first time in years I like most of what I see.

Reading your comments gives me more hope than anything.

I trust your opinion on this style of play more then most, and considering you have never blown smoke up this teams ass (not ever, not even once as far as I can recall) it's all the more poignant.

[Pigfynn]

Good defensive counterattacking football stars with a good compact shape and well define roles, so everyone knows exactly what to do defensively cutting down space, and offensively they can brake out into attack quickly and efficiently. so if you are the cdm that got that ball, you know the moment you get the ball were you should be looking to hit your wide players and or strikers with a pass.

To be honest we are getting there and I am liking it. Sorry, I cannot be negative, for the first time in years I like most of what I see.

What a thoughtful and interesting read this page of the thread has been. Good insight guys.

[redisthenewblk]

An interesting post-game analysis from Kristian Jack: http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/Kristian_Jack/?id=447918

"Bradley, of course, missed his midfield partner Jonathan Osorio on Saturday but the brilliance of Morales, combined with Toronto's shape, meant little would have changed had the Canadian played.

Once fit, against the league's strongest teams, Osorio and Bradley should play just ahead of a more defensive-minded midfielder allowing them to have a much clearer job defensively and in transition."

Pretty much exactly what Trane was saying about a Bradley, Oso, Laba Trio.

[GuelphStorm2007]

Good defensive counterattacking football stars with a good compact shape and well define roles, so everyone knows exactly what to do defensively cutting down space, and offensively they can brake out into attack quickly and efficiently. so if you are the cdm that got that ball, you know the moment you get the ball were you should be looking to hit your wide players and or strikers with a pass.

To be honest we are getting there and I am liking it. Sorry, I cannot be negative, for the first time in years I like most of what I see.

I like how we are playing also we are still in progress and we will get better

[trane]

Reading your comments gives me more hope than anything.

I trust your opinion on this style of play more then most, and considering you have never blown smoke up this teams ass (not ever, not even once as far as I can recall) it's all the more poignant.

Thanks, man, and Pigfynn, just calling it how I see it.

[gate7]

"Wow Bradley is a good player"

...............and .........."I wonder if Superman feels lonely sometime"

[gate7]

I did not see altitude affecting our game.
I saw Nelsen tactical errors, and teams' inability to enjoy possession.
Both Bradley and Defoe commented on possession as well.

"......order ....order..."

[Hamilton_Red]

Nobody plays with two strikers in tough away games. It's reckless. Nelsen has to adapt to that.

steve

[brad]

Nobody plays with two strikers in tough away games. It's reckless. Nelsen has to adapt to that.

steve

I agree. But here is the thing.

When a team invests in two DP strikers, you are going to see 2 DP strikers playing every game they are available. We'd better get used to seeing this happen.

[Yohan]

Nobody plays with two strikers in tough away games. It's reckless. Nelsen has to adapt to that.

steve

nobody... except in MLS.

teams rarely change from their main formation, even on the road

[PopePouri]

Nobody plays with two strikers in tough away games. It's reckless. Nelsen has to adapt to that.

steve

Yes they do. E.g. LA Galaxy, Houston, NYRB.