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  1. #2461
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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Was reeeealllyyy impressed by J Hams last night. Unfortuneatly I dont think he'll get any time with us upfront.

    He's definetly too good for Wilmington though and as such it would be nice to see him go on loan to a more competitive league maybe overseas. Perhaps a loan to an A-League or League 1 club (though I'm not sure he'd get a work permit) using Ryan's connections? Maybe even Roma could help us get him a bottom half or mid table Serie B club for this coming season?

    I think he definitely needs to be playing in a properly competitive environment. He has the potential to go far and it would only be beneficial to us and the CMNT if he gets time in an environment filled with real fan expectations and pressure through promotion/relegation etcetera.

    Just as a disclaimer I'm not a big fan of sending our players to a USL-Pro club that is not our own because I believe that players need to be earning time instead of being gifted it. Also if the player is one of the first names on the team sheet for the loan club than it is not the club for them in terms of development which is why I oppose sending Morgan, Bekker and Hamilton to a USL-Pro club where they are simply keeping fit instead of progressing.
    While I agree with this in theory... I've seen too many young players in the UK get sent to a "competitive" environment in a lower division, only for them to make a costly mistake, get nailed to the bench (results are all that matters to the team they're playing for) and then lose confidence and regress.

    What Hamilton needs is to play regularly, gain confidence in his own abilities, then get a shot with his parent club. If he then shows not ready, you can consider sending him out on another loan, perhaps to a higher level club than previous. But to say that being on a more competitive team will be the best thing for development isn't necessarily the case. Hamilton himself has said that playing in Wilmington has been fantastic for his confidence and development.

  2. #2462
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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Was reeeealllyyy impressed by J Hams last night. Unfortuneatly I dont think he'll get any time with us upfront.

    He's definetly too good for Wilmington though and as such it would be nice to see him go on loan to a more competitive league maybe overseas. Perhaps a loan to an A-League or League 1 club (though I'm not sure he'd get a work permit) using Ryan's connections? Maybe even Roma could help us get him a bottom half or mid table Serie B club for this coming season?

    I think he definitely needs to be playing in a properly competitive environment. He has the potential to go far and it would only be beneficial to us and the CMNT if he gets time in an environment filled with real fan expectations and pressure through promotion/relegation etcetera.

    Just as a disclaimer I'm not a big fan of sending our players to a USL-Pro club that is not our own because I believe that players need to be earning time instead of being gifted it. Also if the player is one of the first names on the team sheet for the loan club than it is not the club for them in terms of development which is why I oppose sending Morgan, Bekker and Hamilton to a USL-Pro club where they are simply keeping fit instead of progressing.
    Hamilton needs to move to NASL club where it's more competitive than USL-Pro. Same can be said for Morgan and Bekker who benefit playing in NASL than USL-Pro.

  3. #2463
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Hamilton needs to move to NASL club where it's more competitive than USL-Pro. Same can be said for Morgan and Bekker who benefit playing in NASL than USL-Pro.
    That sounds reasonable for his development. Can MLS clubs loan to NASL clubs? (I'm not up on the politics of the north American soccer leagues)

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    We follow a very German system with their club affiliate playing outside of the football league.

    It's rather simple for them. If they feel their players can make the jump to the Bundesliga, they move up and give them minutes. No need to go elsewhere.

  5. #2465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Skies At Night View Post
    That sounds reasonable for his development. Can MLS clubs loan to NASL clubs? (I'm not up on the politics of the north American soccer leagues)
    Yes they can loan players to NASL (Example: TFC send Richter to Ottawa recently)

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    Never thought about NASL - that's a great idea actually.

    In response to wasting away on the bench I'd like to state that I never said that a player should waste away on our bench instead of getting time at an inferior club.

    I do understand the worry of a player getting benched but if a guy is competitive with the other guys on the roster than he should be fine. In a two striker system for example as long as J Hams is in the 2nd/3rd spot in the depth chart than he should be getting minutes based on quality alone. If a team is loaning in a player for their 18 than that player is going to get time regardless.

    It's also key to remember that the quality of opposition matters in the development of the player as
    well. Jordan loves his time at Wilmington because he gets starting XI time no matter what and because he's scoring goals. Also, the player probably isn't the most objective in determining their development at a club over 4 months, especially if that player is still on loan at the club (they aren't going to say that they are too good for a league or club).
    Last edited by portu; 07-24-2014 at 10:30 AM.

  7. #2467
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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Never thought about NASL - that's a great idea actually.

    In response to wasting away on the bench I'd like to state that I never said that a player should waste away on our bench instead of getting time at an inferior club.
    Fair enough, but a year ago we didn't have a development option, now its not good enough. Just funny, I would rather have him get meaningful minutes in an affilate club then not have any at all. We have watched talented youth suffer from this in the past and it sucked from my perspective. Its baby steps for a developing system, it all can't be had overnight.
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    thats essentially what I said in the post you highlighted.

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    Did you consider his time in Wilmington is probably a major reason why he looked so great yesterday?

    I don't see an issue. He's doing very well in USL with 5 goals and a number of assists in 11 games, but that's not tearing the league a new one either. I don't even know if there's that much of a quality gap between USL and NASL. Leave well enough alone for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    Did you consider his time in Wilmington is probably a major reason why he looked so great yesterday?

    I don't see an issue. He's doing very well in USL with 5 goals and a number of assists in 11 games, but that's not tearing the league a new one either. I don't even know if there's that much of a quality gap between USL and NASL. Leave well enough alone for now.
    NASL players are similar level to end of bench players on MLS teams IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    Did you consider his time in Wilmington is probably a major reason why he looked so great yesterday?

    I don't see an issue. He's doing very well in USL with 5 goals and a number of assists in 11 games, but that's not tearing the league a new one either. I don't even know if there's that much of a quality gap between USL and NASL. Leave well enough alone for now.
    This.

    It would appear that Lovitz and Hamilton have both benefited from their time at Wilmington. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    Did you consider his time in Wilmington is probably a major reason why he looked so great yesterday?

    I don't see an issue. He's doing very well in USL with 5 goals and a number of assists in 11 games, but that's not tearing the league a new one either. I don't even know if there's that much of a quality gap between USL and NASL. Leave well enough alone for now.
    he may not be tearing the league apart, but, he has scored some important goals, game winners in fact. And scored the first home goal for their 2014 season. They need him more than he needs them IMO

  13. #2473
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    article from the Independent on the difference between a under-21 environment (USL-Pro) and a professional one in player development. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...d-9100560.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    article from the Independent on the difference between a under-21 environment (USL-Pro) and a professional one in player development. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...d-9100560.html
    I like this quote

    In short, there is no hairy-arsed centre-back in the team who will grab a 20-year-old twinkletoes, shove him up against the dressing-room wall, and deliver an almighty bollocking for costing the centre-half the win-bonus he needs to pay the mortgage by playing around with the ball in the wrong goal area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I like this quote
    I was thinking of simply just linking the article with that quote but thought some might just read the quote and call bias on the article.

  16. #2476
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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    thats essentially what I said in the post you highlighted.
    Ya, fair point. I didn't mean to infer otherwise, just a statement about the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    article from the Independent on the difference between a under-21 environment (USL-Pro) and a professional one in player development. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...d-9100560.html
    This refrences the england U21 system....not really apples to apples is it?
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  17. #2477
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    USL-Pro players are not U-21.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Parratt

    Anybody want to call this guy not a professional?

  18. #2478
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    Not really but it did get at what I was trying to express. That is that players need a competitive environment that is at their level and if it is below their level than next season they need to play at a better level. Experiencing "football in the raw" is essential to weeding out the players not capable of making the jump to the next level. They need fans getting on their asses like we get on our players asses when they make a mistake and a coach like ours that will continue to encourage them if they do. I am NOT disputing that Wilmington is good for some of our players, just like im sure the u-21 league is good for some english players. However, you see teams like Everton show some players need to be pushed a little bit harder and put in an environment where there are fans and players that live and breath the club and the game just like at their parent club. The same can be put for us only the u-21 league is USL-Pro and we are the parent club.

    Loaning players out is also good from a CMNT perspective because we don't pay salary on them which means that chances are players with potential that just need time are going to get time instead of getting cut for salary or roster reasons. Playing abroad also brings up their market value which helps them find another club if they are ever out of contract. (See Adam Smith joining Bournemouth)
    Last edited by portu; 07-24-2014 at 03:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    USL-Pro players are not U-21.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Parratt

    Anybody want to call this guy not a professional?
    No of course not he is a professional but obviously not a good one. Three Scottish clubs one is in the third tier and the other two in the second tier (one recently promoted through playoffs). That kind of speaks to the quality of the team does it not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    No of course not he is a professional but obviously not a good one. Three Scottish clubs one is in the third tier and the other two in the second tier (one recently promoted through playoffs). That kind of speaks to the quality of the team does it not?

    Since when does the quality level mean a veteran who needs to succeed can not get in the face of a rookie for messing up his bonus?

    ..In short, there is no hairy-arsed centre-back in the team who will grab a 20-year-old twinkletoes, shove him up against the dressing-room wall, and deliver an almighty bollocking for costing the centre-half the win-bonus he needs to pay the mortgage by playing around with the ball in the wrong goal area...
    I gave you an example of possible said hairy-arsed centre back.

    The whole issue of that article was the lack of competition within the EPL's U21 setup. Its pretty obvious that US-Pro is a competitive league where people give a darn.
    That pretty much refutes your point.

    Oh....and are we hearing rave reviews about Manny Aparicio from down there? No. Not all products sent down will be at at better level.


    BTW, if it was not worth putting products into, why would MLS be forcing all teams to have a USL Pro relationship?
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 07-24-2014 at 03:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Since when does the quality level mean a veteran who needs to succeed can not get in the face of a rookie for messing up his bonus?



    I gave you an example of possible said hairy-arsed centre back.

    The whole issue of that article was the lack of competition within the EPL's U21 setup. Its pretty obvious that US-Pro is a competitive league where people give a darn.
    That pretty much refutes your point.

    Oh....and are we hearing rave reviews about Manny Aparicio from down there? No. Not all products sent down will be at at better level.


    BTW, if it was not worth putting products into, why would MLS be forcing all teams to have a USL Pro relationship?
    I feel like I'm coming off as hating USL-Pro, I don't. I am going to make this perfectly clear. I think that USL-Pro is working just fine for Q and Manny and will work for players of that quality in the future. I also think that when it comes to younger fringe players such as Bekker, Morgan and Hamilton it would be better if we loaned them out to an environment that suited their level (which is above USL-Pro) and offered more such as: promotion/relegation, properly intense fans, an encouraging gaffer (which I am pretty sure that Wilmington has), players that are invested in the club (which again I cannot confirm or deny given I've only watched 3 games thus far) and more connections to the footballing world if the player doesn't reach a decent enough level for us to make him a permanent fixture (imagine if Bekker were to be released by us today, even though he would most likely be good enough to gain a contract in a more technical league such as the Spanish 2nd/3rd division his 18 games for us at 23 years old doesn't exactly say wonders of his quality).

    Also the way things are going there are going to be no veterans getting in the face of a rookie in MLS USL-Pro teams because many clubs, including us, are looking towards a more Galaxy II orientated set-up.

  22. #2482
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    I'm told TFC's Jordan Hamilton is set for a loan spell in the Portuguese second division. Unsure of the club. Could be announced soon. #TFC"

    Larson on twitter.

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    Wow, totally out of left field. I wonder what the connection is? Surely it wasn't simply some scout from the second division club watching the spurs game?

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    Wow, I didn't actually expect him to go on loan in Europe anytime soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flamehawk View Post
    Wow, totally out of left field. I wonder what the connection is? Surely it wasn't simply some scout from the second division club watching the spurs game?
    I doubt it. Must be a connection either through Tim B or Nelly.

    Good for him though be nice to see how he stacks up in a higher league that's probably more comparable to MLS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flamehawk View Post
    Wow, totally out of left field. I wonder what the connection is? Surely it wasn't simply some scout from the second division club watching the spurs game?

    I had a conversation with a co-worker who is friends with the parents of a TFC Academy player; their son was scouted by agents who represent teams in the Portuguese league at the U17 world cup in UAE last year.

    That has to be the connection that they might have wanted to sign Hamilton as well but he signed for TFC instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flamehawk View Post
    Wow, totally out of left field. I wonder what the connection is? Surely it wasn't simply some scout from the second division club watching the spurs game?
    Benito Floro?

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    Portuguese second division? I think I'd rather him finish out the year in Wilmington.

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    Quote Originally Posted by molenshtain View Post
    Portuguese second division? I think I'd rather him finish out the year in Wilmington.
    It's a much better development system than you'll get out of Wilmington, that is guaranteed. I have family in Estoril just outside of Lisbon and I usually catch a few games a year. Estoril was promoted in 11' but of the games I saw in the Segunda the technical quality was far beyond that of Wilmington's. Examples of players that have gone on loan to the lower tiers are Varela (FC Porto) and William Carvalho (Sporting).

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    It's a much better development system than you'll get out of Wilmington, that is guaranteed. I have family in Estoril just outside of Lisbon and I usually catch a few games a year. Estoril was promoted in 11' but of the games I saw in the Segunda the technical quality was far beyond that of Wilmington's. Examples of players that have gone on loan to the lower tiers are Varela (FC Porto) and William Carvalho (Sporting).
    I have no doubt that that's true. I just think that sending an 18 year old kid to a new country with a new language to a team likely to have piss poor facilities isn't the best idea. I'm sure it's a competition level upgrade and the coaching would probably better but there's more of a chance for things to go sour than for him to gain anything significant from it. At least in Wilmington he'll get ample playing time and is close enough to home for there to be constant communication on his development. Just my opinion.

 

 

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