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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Why doesn't the league just give free agency to 29 year olds, take the cap to $4M, and cut the crap?
    I suspect I was wrong in opposing free agency initially; when you look at the salary dilution in the football world and how many overseas options there are, it's meaningless to suggest it'll just lead to teams outbidding each other for players who aren't worth it. And for players who are, we'd probably all be okay with that. Anyone watch that DC Alajuense game? Holy crap. It looked like Conference North.

    In the end, I think all that would happen is that the inevitable creep at the top of the cap as bigger investors come in will arrive more quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Why doesn't the league just give free agency to 29 year olds, take the cap to $4M, and cut the crap?
    The league could say that. Players over 29 can go where they want.

    Downside is no one is going to bid up their wages as the league would simply reject any contract value they deem as inflationary.

    I imagine that the compromise is to relinquish some control over older players as you suggest but drop the demand for free agency in exchange for concessions on salaries. I've got to think that a luxury tax on the stupid money that TFC and others are throwing out on individual players would help the league fund that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    The more I look at what Hanson said, the stupider and more upside-down it seems, as a point in law.

    MLS doesn't have "rights" over people's ability to change jobs by any sort of moral or legal law. An employee has the legal right in the US and Canada to seek employment inside or outside his/her company for work in another city. Unless the employee bargains that right away. Which is what has happened to date.

    The right to obstruct movement is not a right that the the owners of MLS just "have" because of their legal structure.

    No employee has the right to tell employer they are moving and the employer has to give the job. Years ago I was up north working for a company in a Sales Job, My girlfriend was in Toronto finishing Uni and after my grandparents passed I wanted to head down as I was there for them... I liked my job and in a small market I sold at Toronto level numbers. My Manager and District Manager refused to transfer me, went so far to border on professional slander. I would have left the District Managers district and so he did everything he could to block a move. That is the reality in the real world. (I eventually left the company and went to a different Company for about a 50-60% raise.)

    At a bank if I want to move from one branch to another it needs to be approved, and if it isn't there is no recourse. I can apply for another position but it doesn't have to be granted, managers can block it, I have had it happen a few times where a Manager didn't want to loose the numbers I brought, or they just didn't like me and were trying to break me down to quit. These are the realities in most jobs. (including some of the largest corporations in Canada.

    So that is BS.

    MLS is a company, if they higher a player to work in one area, and they don't want to hire that player to work in another area for more money to do the same job.. that is the employers right. Employees do not have a right to a massive raise and a move just because they want it. I don't know where you work Ensco but in the real world it doesn't work that way. As long as Players are employees of MLS Free Agency doesn't exist the players are free to move to any other company they like... Be that company be a Franchise in NASL, or Mexico or Europe, Africa, South American, Asia/Oceania the players have the right to move to any other company they wish.

    The don't have the right to demand a new position in a different city at a higher salary for the same job with the employer covering many of the expenses of the move.

    MLS is a single company. Legal speaking that is still true.. if the players want to change that refuse to play, disband the Union and sue. Of course the League likely won't hire them back, if it still exists. Or they can disband the union and sue and play under the previous CBA. Of course if they loose Free Agency is off the table for years to come and they screw future players that might have stood a chance after the current growth period. Or they can give up Free Agency right now, wait for the league to settle on a number of teams, and try to get increased wages and better contract positions, and improve the re-entry draft.

    Those are the options if the league isn't willing to blow up the Single Entity nature. Two are very risky, which could sully the league image, stunt or retard its growth and leave the players in a worse position. One is a long term play that isn't going to hurt the games growth.

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    ^What are you talking about? Do you even understand that this is about contracts that restrict someone's rights after the contract has expired and they are no longer an employee?
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    ^What are you talking about? Do you even understand that this is about contracts that restrict someone's rights after the contract has expired and they are no longer an employee?

    Yes. Do you?

    Free Agency in MLS means that the players want to say I'm not resigning with MLS unless MLS pays me more and lets me move to a city of my choosing. The players have the right go to any other company they want when their contract expires. .. as such the players have free agency. MLS is one Company, Manchester United is one Company, Santos Laguna is one company, Real Madrid is one company, FC Edmonton is one Company. MLS players can choose which company they sign with now when their contract finish. As such they have free agency already.


    Houston Dynamo, Sport Kansas City, and Toronto FC are all the same company and all the contracts of the players in Toronto are with the same people as all the contracts in Houston. So what the players are asking is for the Company to stop being a company and break up into 20 different companies so they can play them against each other and demand more money. That is ridiculous. At least while they are still expanding the company and the company as it stands now helps attract new investors to help open new offices in other cities. For the Employees of that company to say, well if you don't split up the company for our personal benefit we will strike is the players right... but the Company "MLS" that they work for can also say... are you high? no that isn't happening.
    Last edited by Kaz; 02-28-2015 at 10:16 AM.

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    ^I am not going to respond to you after this, but you have no idea what you are talking about. MLS' "single entity" is a construct of a group of owners. It doesn't sit above the law. The whole system governing how contracts are signed, with what entity, the whole thing, is collectively bargained. The players can't move because their collective bargaining agreement restrains their ability to move, not because they have no intrinsic right or ability to move based on MLS' weird ownership structure.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    The league could say that. Players over 29 can go where they want.

    Downside is no one is going to bid up their wages as the league would simply reject any contract value they deem as inflationary.

    I imagine that the compromise is to relinquish some control over older players as you suggest but drop the demand for free agency in exchange for concessions on salaries. I've got to think that a luxury tax on the stupid money that TFC and others are throwing out on individual players would help the league fund that.
    If teams choose not to sign free agents, that is fine. As long as they don't collude. Baseball tried that, it didn't work out too well.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_L...ball_collusion
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    ^I am not going to respond to you after this, but you have no idea what you are talking about. MLS' "single entity" is a construct of a group of owners. It doesn't sit above the law. The whole system governing how contracts are signed, with what entity, the whole thing, is collectively bargained. The players can't move because their collective bargaining agreement restrains their ability to move, not because they have no intrinsic right or ability to move based on MLS' weird ownership structure.
    We have to disagree, the single entity though question has not been removed by the courts, so legals that is the way it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    Yes. Do you?

    Free Agency in MLS means that the players want to say I'm not resigning with MLS unless MLS pays me more and lets me move to a city of my choosing. The players have the right go to any other company they want when their contract expires. .. as such the players have free agency. MLS is one Company, Manchester United is one Company, Santos Laguna is one company, Real Madrid is one company, FC Edmonton is one Company. MLS players can choose which company they sign with now when their contract finish. As such they have free agency already.


    Houston Dynamo, Sport Kansas City, and Toronto FC are all the same company and all the contracts of the players in Toronto are with the same people as all the contracts in Houston. So what the players are asking is for the Company to stop being a company and break up into 20 different companies so they can play them against each other and demand more money. That is ridiculous. At least while they are still expanding the company and the company as it stands now helps attract new investors to help open new offices in other cities. For the Employees of that company to say, well if you don't split up the company for our personal benefit we will strike is the players right... but the Company "MLS" that they work for can also say... are you high? no that isn't happening.
    This is incorrect, Kaz. Completely. The court ruling on whether MLS violated anti-trust was that it doesn't; but that's only because they have mobility of trade in OTHER leagues. A contract signed with this league is the binding force that controls movement, not the structure of the league itself; if no contract is in place, it would revert to jurisdictional control under state/provincial labor legislation, which in turn would be governed by federal trade legislation and NAFTA.

    The league could be deemed legally single-entity and still negotiate contracts that allow players to pick the team that bids highest, without that contract being negotiated by the team.

    Here's a more common example: a large company, such as Safeway, has multiple barganining units in multiple countries. While contracts from one may INFLUENCE another, they are not binding on the other local, even though it's the same company. Each local (or TEAM in the case of free agency) negotiates its own deals.

    This happens in both union and non union shops. Contracts involving Sun Media staff in eastern Canada had absolutely no impact -- regardless of being helped by a central bargainer who worked for the sun -- on those in Western Canada (when there even were contracts, which was rare).

    In this case, it's even less centralized because the current MLS bargainer has to work with the "locals" which are independently owned through investment in a league share structure. The league owners don't JUST get shares in MLS; they also get private shares that designate them as owning and being in charge of their franchise.

    In effect, all the league would have to do to allow for free agency is to have the bidding done by sealed tender. At that point, the bids themself cannot be seen to be influencing a "one upmanship" and the owners can't collude (except by directly breaking the law) to keep bids down. Example: A player at 29 gets free agency for Toronto. Last season, he earned `180,000 but was a leading left fullback (total made up example, not referring to Morrow). At the end of a deal, he announces with six months remaining that he'll be exercising free agency. Teams enter sealed bids for service with the league, the player and his rep go over them and choose a team with which to negotiate non-salary points. If a contract can't be reached, the team loses the right to enter a second bid in a second tender round.

    This achieves several things: a) players can get their best value within MLS; if no one within MLS makes an appropriate bid, they can either go to another league, or decide to take the best lower bid, or ask an arbitrator to rule on the best bid, ala baseball. b) Players can 't use the salary offer to escalate bids, because they're not open to each team. c) The most contentious part of individual deals being negotiated is taken off the table, leaving secondary considerations such as bonuses, release clauses, trade clauses to be negotiated, significantly improving labor relations across the board.

    I'm actually not in favor of free agency being age related, particularly in a league where half the guys are 24 by the time they start playing pro. But three years of continuous service to one club is a pretty good benchmark. If they wanted to build both fan and player-club loyatly, they might even make it four. THey'd also have to allow for cost-of-living clauses such bumps for extreme differences between cities, and no-trade clauses.

    But being a legal single entity does not, in any way, prevent them involving local considerations in contract structure, because the relative contracts are the PLAYER deals, not the overarching CBA that sets the guidelines. The CBA is the set of guides they're supposed to follow; player contracts are the power that decides who goes where.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    If teams choose not to sign free agents, that is fine. As long as they don't collude. Baseball tried that, it didn't work out too well.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_L...ball_collusion
    The devil is in the details of how teams actually sign players either discovery signings or players out of contract (non DPs).

    Agent/team agree to a wage and that is brought to the league. League determines if the contract fits within their scale. Sometimes they nix it.

    Ultimate approval is with the league.

    In a legal sense, teams don't ever sign a player. MLS signs the player and the player is assigned to a team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    The devil is in the details of how teams actually sign players either discovery signings or players out of contract (non DPs).

    Agent/team agree to a wage and that is brought to the league. League determines if the contract fits within their scale. Sometimes they nix it.

    Ultimate approval is with the league.

    In a legal sense, teams don't ever sign a player. MLS signs the player and the player is assigned to a team.
    It definitely seems odd that the owners would lose a season over free agency when it's so easy to work around. Certainly some owners have different views on it than others.

    But the single-entity is really just the franchise agreement the league has with the investors - nit all franchise businesses work the same (remember when the Pizza Pizza franchisees sued). it's like Tim Hortons or McDonalds, invetsors buy a franchise. So, the free agency example would be that an employee quits one McDonalds franchise and goes to work for another franchise in a different location - sometimes for more money, maybe one franchise owner thinks the employee could be a manager and the other owner doesn't, or it could simply be because of location. Without free agency what the league is saying is, go work for Burger King if you want, but you can't work for another McDonalds. Except there's a much bigger difference between MLS and NASL than there is between McDonalds and Burger King.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    In effect, all the league would have to do to allow for free agency is to have the bidding done by sealed tender. At that point, the bids themself cannot be seen to be influencing a "one upmanship" and the owners can't collude (except by directly breaking the law) to keep bids down. Example: A player at 29 gets free agency for Toronto. Last season, he earned `180,000 but was a leading left fullback (total made up example, not referring to Morrow). At the end of a deal, he announces with six months remaining that he'll be exercising free agency. Teams enter sealed bids for service with the league, the player and his rep go over them and choose a team with which to negotiate non-salary points. If a contract can't be reached, the team loses the right to enter a second bid in a second tender round.

    This achieves several things: a) players can get their best value within MLS; if no one within MLS makes an appropriate bid, they can either go to another league, or decide to take the best lower bid, or ask an arbitrator to rule on the best bid, ala baseball. b) Players can 't use the salary offer to escalate bids, because they're not open to each team. c) The most contentious part of individual deals being negotiated is taken off the table, leaving secondary considerations such as bonuses, release clauses, trade clauses to be negotiated, significantly improving labor relations across the board.
    There is no way that the non-MLSE type operators will allow this version of free agency. The only way they would be able to lure top-quality players away from the major markets is to either have some intangibles that make players want to play for them or offer significantly more than the desirable player markets, thereby meaning they'll be handicapped by having effectively a lower cap. Since most operators have none of the former attributes and they don't think it's fair to have to spend more money to get a player than desirable markets, I think they would rather lock the players out than let them win free agency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    The devil is in the details of how teams actually sign players either discovery signings or players out of contract (non DPs).

    Agent/team agree to a wage and that is brought to the league. League determines if the contract fits within their scale. Sometimes they nix it.

    Ultimate approval is with the league.

    In a legal sense, teams don't ever sign a player. MLS signs the player and the player is assigned to a team.
    Rarely. They can only do this so often before it hurts clubs ability to operate and actually compete with each other on the field. And remember, the league is acting on behalf of their teams and not as a means to pull all the puppet strings.

    Ultimately MLS has to decide how competitive they want to be for talent. The route they are going now will continue to ensure players leave for 2nd-3rd class leagues in Europe.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 02-28-2015 at 01:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    There is no way that the non-MLSE type operators will allow this version of free agency. The only way they would be able to lure top-quality players away from the major markets is to either have some intangibles that make players want to play for them or offer significantly more than the desirable player markets, thereby meaning they'll be handicapped by having effectively a lower cap. Since most operators have none of the former attributes and they don't think it's fair to have to spend more money to get a player than desirable markets, I think they would rather lock the players out than let them win free agency.


    "The only way they would be able to lure..."' -- -Huh? It's still a capped league. The major markets can't pay more for anything but DPs. And to assume everyone wants to live in NY or LA is simply not reality. Plus the bids would be sealed; neither side can escalate the salary portion, which would be based on a tender bid. And it accounts for small vs large market via regional cost of living allowances.

    Nothing in that statement offers an actual counterpoint to what I proposed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    This is incorrect, Kaz. Completely. The court ruling on whether MLS violated anti-trust was that it doesn't; but that's only because they have mobility of trade in OTHER leagues. A contract signed with this league is the binding force that controls movement, not the structure of the league itself; if no contract is in place, it would revert to jurisdictional control under state/provincial labor legislation, which in turn would be governed by federal trade legislation and NAFTA.

    The league could be deemed legally single-entity and still negotiate contracts that allow players to pick the team that bids highest, without that contract being negotiated by the team.

    Here's a more common example: a large company, such as Safeway, has multiple barganining units in multiple countries. While contracts from one may INFLUENCE another, they are not binding on the other local, even though it's the same company. Each local (or TEAM in the case of free agency) negotiates its own deals.

    This happens in both union and non union shops. Contracts involving Sun Media staff in eastern Canada had absolutely no impact -- regardless of being helped by a central bargainer who worked for the sun -- on those in Western Canada (when there even were contracts, which was rare).

    In this case, it's even less centralized because the current MLS bargainer has to work with the "locals" which are independently owned through investment in a league share structure. The league owners don't JUST get shares in MLS; they also get private shares that designate them as owning and being in charge of their franchise.

    In effect, all the league would have to do to allow for free agency is to have the bidding done by sealed tender. At that point, the bids themself cannot be seen to be influencing a "one upmanship" and the owners can't collude (except by directly breaking the law) to keep bids down. Example: A player at 29 gets free agency for Toronto. Last season, he earned `180,000 but was a leading left fullback (total made up example, not referring to Morrow). At the end of a deal, he announces with six months remaining that he'll be exercising free agency. Teams enter sealed bids for service with the league, the player and his rep go over them and choose a team with which to negotiate non-salary points. If a contract can't be reached, the team loses the right to enter a second bid in a second tender round.

    This achieves several things: a) players can get their best value within MLS; if no one within MLS makes an appropriate bid, they can either go to another league, or decide to take the best lower bid, or ask an arbitrator to rule on the best bid, ala baseball. b) Players can 't use the salary offer to escalate bids, because they're not open to each team. c) The most contentious part of individual deals being negotiated is taken off the table, leaving secondary considerations such as bonuses, release clauses, trade clauses to be negotiated, significantly improving labor relations across the board.

    I'm actually not in favor of free agency being age related, particularly in a league where half the guys are 24 by the time they start playing pro. But three years of continuous service to one club is a pretty good benchmark. If they wanted to build both fan and player-club loyatly, they might even make it four. THey'd also have to allow for cost-of-living clauses such bumps for extreme differences between cities, and no-trade clauses.

    But being a legal single entity does not, in any way, prevent them involving local considerations in contract structure, because the relative contracts are the PLAYER deals, not the overarching CBA that sets the guidelines. The CBA is the set of guides they're supposed to follow; player contracts are the power that decides who goes where.
    This is a very fine summary of the talks that are probably going on right now.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    I stand corrected... that makes a sense... However using the Safeway example, if you are in contract you aren't going to your manager and say pay me double my current salary or I'm going to Tulsa. The Manager will pick up the phone to either a central office or directly and say WTF are you stupid and the Central office can say.. no you aren't paying him double he was made a reasonable offer for a contract renewal if he wants it then he can take it, if he really wants to move to Tulsa then he can.

    Today that is basically want it is... you can go to you the GM or however and say he look I really want to go to Houston when my contract his over, and something can be arranged. At best allow players to choose to go into the re-entry draft if the qualify (as some have tried to suggest that isn't the case currently) and see who wants them. There is no need for "Free Agency" doesn't benefit the league, it has a very minor benefit to the Players and only a small number, but it helps Agents.. and that isn't a reason to strike when there are more important things.

    I say let them all strike.. or disband the union... and let the court find in favour of the league, and let the Agents realize they just screwed their commissions for a decade.

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    That legal challenge likely would take a long time, years. I'd think they would have to disband the PU and go without collective bargaining during that time. Not sure the players are willing to go that deep.

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    The legal challenge is a sideshow. This is just a negotiation. Whoever can take the pain wins. My money is on the owners, but I am rooting for the players.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    "The only way they would be able to lure..."' -- -Huh? It's still a capped league. The major markets can't pay more for anything but DPs. And to assume everyone wants to live in NY or LA is simply not reality. Plus the bids would be sealed; neither side can escalate the salary portion, which would be based on a tender bid. And it accounts for small vs large market via regional cost of living allowances.
    I'm thinking (and I'm sure some of the owners are thinking) of a couple of years down the road where $300-400K contracts for starters are the norm. You said the player can chose which of the tendered bids he wants to go with, and it doesn't necessarily have to be the highest one. If a player is offered $300K to play with NYCFC and another offer is for $320K to play in Columbus, where do you think the player will choose? Columbus would probably have to overpay him at least 10% more than what New York offered just to stay in the running, and compounded over the entire starting squad, then for the same amount of money Columbus would only be able to afford 10 players while New York would be able to purchase 11 players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    I'm thinking (and I'm sure some of the owners are thinking) of a couple of years down the road where $300-400K contracts for starters are the norm. You said the player can chose which of the tendered bids he wants to go with, and it doesn't necessarily have to be the highest one. If a player is offered $300K to play with NYCFC and another offer is for $320K to play in Columbus, where do you think the player will choose? Columbus would probably have to overpay him at least 10% more than what New York offered just to stay in the running, and compounded over the entire starting squad, then for the same amount of money Columbus would only be able to afford 10 players while New York would be able to purchase 11 players.
    Could be. The NBA pretty much works this way.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Well the flip side is, you could always argue market price for these small teams will always be above the league average. So for any non-domestic who has options they are either a) already paying that premium b) losing out on talent because they can't pay full price. So I think free agency or not, small market teams already live in a reality where it is harder to obtain players.

    The way the nba deals with this is they give a higher maximum to players who stay with their existing club. So if you're a star and you want as much money as possible, your options are: 1) sign and trade at the end of your contract. 2) straight up re-sign. 3) accept less money and go elsewhere.

    Allocation money and "you suck" dollars aren't a bad deal either. A few tweaks to those and you can naturally build in some mechanisms that would allow for a form or salary equalization for squads that suck because they have trouble attracting talent. It's a better way of dealing with things than crudely restricting bargaining rights, which will ultimately lead to talent leakage.

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    Nothing but crickets today. No leaks or posturing by either side. That is a good sign imho.

    Unless it isn't.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Nothing but crickets today. No leaks or posturing by either side. That is a good sign imho.

    Unless it isn't.
    If they're working with an appointed mediator today will be a heavy work day. They always favor Sundays for getting things done. Always possible to get everyone to the table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    If they're working with an appointed mediator today will be a heavy work day. They always favor Sundays for getting things done. Always possible to get everyone to the table.
    Oh yeah they are still going I bet.

    No news means nothing, but leaks and threats are unambiguously bad. Here's hoping.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Oh yeah they are still going I bet.

    No news means nothing, but leaks and threats are unambiguously bad. Here's hoping.
    Good mediator could pull apart "free agency" into a series of sub issues and then look for a balance that granted the players more control and choice while saving owner face.

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    Garber said this was the mediator who just spent 6 weeks helping avert the dockworker's striker on the US West Coast.

    Not sure if that means he/she was any good as those talks were only resolved after the intervention of the White House.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Nothing but crickets today. No leaks or posturing by either side. That is a good sign imho.

    Unless it isn't.
    This made me chuckle. By the same token, it's terrifying.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    A lot of the players were still getting to DC late afternoon/evening. So not sure how much they would have been able to get done yesterday.

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    so...

    Total MLS @TotalMLS · 42m 42 minutes ago

    Orlando City announce they have sold out the Citrus Bowl. 60,000 tickets sold for Sunday's game v NYCFC. Now for the CBA...




    Must add pressure to the situation. I am not following the discussions that in depth but I just find this interesting.

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    Devos tweeted this article out there.

    http://americansoccernow.com/article...nd-sue-instead

 

 

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