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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    55k is not going to attract the type of talent that thrives is professional sports. Right now, there are plenty of guys who will take Europe based on equal money and greater visibility or just give up on the game rather than go through this drudgery. Money may cause overpayment of domestics in short term but will draw talent in the long run. Internationals can't solve the lack of domestic talent, which this league needs to draw more attention to the product.
    What does the 55 K basement salary have to do with attracting talent? The only number any player is concerned about is their own specific salary, so if the median is high, then there is no problem. You need a low 55k minimum salary for guys on the bench - at least for the next CBA. America/Canada have quite a bit of talent overseas right now as well... Canada alone have guys like De Jong, Jackson, Edgar, Borjan, Hutchinson and others that would do well in MLS, and that isn't a stretch. If you can increase the level of play overall and increase the median salary, I would think some of these domestic players will start chosing MLS. If the cap raises 2 million, this league could take a massive step forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defoe View Post
    You need a low 55k minimum salary for guys on the bench - at least for the next CBA...
    You might not have noticed, but it can be argued that of the starters on Saturday, only Morrow, Bloom, Gilberto, Oduro and Bradley would have never been "guys on the bench" for us at some point this season.

    Bench depth is how MLS is going to get better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defoe View Post
    What does the 55 K basement salary have to do with attracting talent? The only number any player is concerned about is their own specific salary, so if the median is high, then there is no problem. You need a low 55k minimum salary for guys on the bench - at least for the next CBA. America/Canada have quite a bit of talent overseas right now as well... Canada alone have guys like De Jong, Jackson, Edgar, Borjan, Hutchinson and others that would do well in MLS, and that isn't a stretch. If you can increase the level of play overall and increase the median salary, I would think some of these domestic players will start chosing MLS. If the cap raises 2 million, this league could take a massive step forward.
    Disagree. This league needs depth to increase competition for starting 11 places. It also needs to attract better quality prospects to sit on farm teams.

    That's better bang for your buck than repatriating most of guys you listed above.

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    yes but as of now we don't have that luxury... that can be addressed in the next CBA in 5 years. Raising it now would only mean doubling Lovitz, Hagglund, Osorio and Morgan's salary when we don't have too

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    Ya it would.. it would also mean keeping Academy players that might end up in Europe over the next 5 years.... specifically it might mean kids who would go to Europe at 14/16 and give up their Canadian Citizenship might stay... DeGuzman for example

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defoe View Post
    yes but as of now we don't have that luxury... that can be addressed in the next CBA in 5 years. Raising it now would only mean doubling Lovitz, Hagglund, Osorio and Morgan's salary when we don't have too
    We doubled Osorio's salary last year
    Road Trips: July 7 2007 Chicago, July 22nd 2007 Columbus, August 11 2007 NY, October 13 2007 LA, March 29 2008 Columbus, May 24th 2008 DC, May 26 2008 Montreal, June 28th 2008 NE, March 7-11-14 2009 Charleston, March 28 2009 Columbus, April 10 2010 New England, May 12 2010 Montreal, April 7 2012 Montreal, March 16 2013 Montreal , June 3 2014 Montreal, March 14 2015 Columbus

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  7. #97
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    Some speculation that the 4th DP will be a mandated domestic.

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    http://www.goal.com/en-ke/news/4631/...low-and-steady

    we already knew but TFC really sucks at this moneyball thing
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    If Bendik, the TFC union rep's words are anything to go by, should be a very... interesting off season. Looks like MLSPU is gearing up for a fight against MLS.
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    I'm still putting money on a strike situtation - the MLS reputation has really increased since the last bargaining, and the players/union will know it, and will want to get there cut. I can't see it being a clean cut negotations this time unfortunately.

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    MLS may bypass a strike by giving the low-end players a $20K raise to reduce the income gap between the highest and lowest in the league. All the owners would have to do would be to raise the entry salary from $36.5K to $55K to be able to say, "Look how good we are! We lowered the salary gap by 37 percent! We care about our Players!!" The pressure from the low-level players should allow the owners to get away with restricting player movement for another 5 years at least.

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    Bendik mentioned free agency as another point of conflict - is that basically a jab at the single entity structure of the league and contracts being with the player and the league, not between the player and the teams?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red I View Post
    Bendik mentioned free agency as another point of conflict - is that basically a jab at the single entity structure of the league and contracts being with the player and the league, not between the player and the teams?
    Almost certainly. Free agency in this league almost doesn't exist, and the free agency that does exist is for players that no team wants for anywhere near their current salary. In other words, free agency is free agency for the teams, not the players.

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    Free agency is a huge thing for me, the allocation order nonsense needs to be scrapped and let teams own the contracts. I don't think it will happen during these negations but the seeds will be planted, I expect huge resistance from the league but it will come 5 years from now.

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    Free Agency?


    That's Cosmos talk. 70's thinking! Pele! Splutter...wheeze.... cough!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Free agency is a huge thing for me, the allocation order nonsense needs to be scrapped and let teams own the contracts. I don't think it will happen during these negations but the seeds will be planted, I expect huge resistance from the league but it will come 5 years from now.
    single entity will never go away. it's one of the things that makes MLS attractive to investors. there will not be any run away wage inflation
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Free Agency?


    That's Cosmos talk. 70's thinking! Pele! Splutter...wheeze.... cough!
    Exactly. Bring in what bankrupted the old NASL? It will never, ever, happen, except maybe in a very limited way.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    single entity will never go away. it's one of the things that makes MLS attractive to investors. there will not be any run away wage inflation
    That's what you have a salary cap for? Free agency isn't a new concept, the teams in this league could handle if it gets to what Garber is suggesting about a being a top league in the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    I'm still putting money on a strike situtation - the MLS reputation has really increased since the last bargaining, and the players/union will know it, and will want to get there cut. I can't see it being a clean cut negotations this time unfortunately.
    Not only that but Two new expansion teams coming in, they know a strike will not help those markets.

    Call me a cynic, but all these farm team signings we're seeing by the league is probably being done to dilute the resolve of the MLSPU. New guys are unlikely to have the same resolve the vet domestics, who are most likely leading the charge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    That's what you have a salary cap for? Free agency isn't a new concept, the teams in this league could handle if it gets to what Garber is suggesting about a being a top league in the world.
    with a such a low salary cap, free agency will reduce the quality of the league because teams will fight over few good free agents and end up signing him on a high wage, leaving not much for the rest of the team.
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    single entity will never go away. it's one of the things that makes MLS attractive to investors. there will not be any run away wage inflation
    The league has entered a new period but still is shackled by its previous near death experiences. They need to be more forward thinking and less myopic. The facade of single entity will eventually crack with expansion. Your Seattles, TFCs, LAs, and NYs are going to have major issues with revenue sharing and being anchored by these small market teams, many of which are under invested in and where the owners have little incentive to improve because of the free ride of shared ownership.

    Wage increases for regular players have barely topped inflation. MLS continues to leak talent to places that it shouldn't. The league is over-marketed and quality is improved but still underwhelming.

    They need a new model and shouldn't take the public's interest in the game currently for granted. Things change, trends come and go, some markets never develop when companies fail to capitalize.

    The vision the league had 5 years ago made sense given the environment they were in. It no longer makes sense and needs to change.

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    How does one have Free Agency when all the contracts are held by one entity? Practically speaking, how does one team negotiate against another team when neither actually pays the bill?

    Free Agency only comes from challenging MLS' Anti-trust status, IMO. Contracts would have to be held with each individual team.

    The power for the Union comes from using the threat of challenging that status and parlaying it into increased wages for its domestic players and other elements like guaranteed contracts, etc. I'm not sure that the end game this time around would be free agency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    How does one have Free Agency when all the contracts are held by one entity? Practically speaking, how does one team negotiate against another team when neither actually pays the bill?

    Free Agency only comes from challenging MLS' Anti-trust status, IMO. Contracts would have to be held with each individual team.

    The power for the Union comes from using the threat of challenging that status and parlaying it into increased wages for its domestic players and other elements like guaranteed contracts, etc. I'm not sure that the end game this time around would be free agency.
    MLSPU already challenged MLS's single entity in 2000 IIRC. They lost.

    Single entity will be around forever, unless MLS decides to go otherwise
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

  24. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    MLSPU already challenged MLS's single entity in 2000 IIRC. They lost.

    Single entity will be around forever, unless MLS decides to go otherwise
    From my understanding they didn't lose, they dropped the case before it came to conclusion. That's important, because they can still bring it up again.

    Edit: Actually, I stand corrected. MLS did actually win the case outright. However, that doesn't preclude them from bringing it up again on different grounds.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 11-02-2014 at 02:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    MLSPU already challenged MLS's single entity in 2000 IIRC. They lost.

    Single entity will be around forever, unless MLS decides to go otherwise
    Not exactly. The MLS Player's Union wasn't formed until 2003. The legal challenge you refer to was a group of players that sought to challenge it and the courts, though siding in MLS' favour at the time have left doors open.

    Some 12-14 years later, the argument that MLS continues to operate as a single entity is losing a lot of steam. For example:

    - each team employs its own Managers/Technical Directors/Director of Soccer and has its own scouting staff to varying degrees
    - they draft independently
    - they promote and develop from their own independent Academies
    - they compete for the services of Designated Players and compensate them differently
    - they can make "Discovery Signing" claims, effectively bringing labour services to their organization
    - they select players at their own discretion from the Waiver/Re-entry draft

    If the MLSPU wanted to challenge the MLS' claim on Single Entity, they would likely find success. MLS' current structure whereby all contracts are held with the league clearly limits and restricts labour movement. It also follows that teams clearly have the ability to act independently and in the examples above do act in such a way.

    The real question is whether the Union wants to take this on or wants to leverage the status quo to extract more for its members.

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    Default 2015 MLS CBA - Armageddon Watch

    I'll kick this off - I think the only way this gets settled fast is if MLS caves and has a huge increase in the cap.

    Otherwise the players are out for months. Too much disparity. Remember how the De Guzman/Dero thing destroyed our room? This is happenng league wide now.

    I say they restart September 1, with a Euro calendar - one like Germany, with an even longer Xmas break, and maybe like Mexico, with an Apertura/Clausura.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I'll kick this off - I think the only way this gets settled fast is if MLS caves and has a huge increase in the cap.

    Otherwise the players are out for months. Too much disparity. Remember how the De Guzman/Dero thing destroyed our room? This is happenng league wide now.

    I say they restart September 1, with a Euro calendar - one like Germany, with an even longer Xmas break, and maybe like Mexico, with an Apertura/Clausura.
    Apparently Taylor Twellman (who has exceptional sources) is reporting the league might move to five DPs per club; he said a month or so ago that they're also considering a significant cap increase, something like $3.5 million per. Pretty game changing if true; five top-level internationals per club really ups the profile, and MLS already gets a break on that front just by being in the U.S., which tends to fascinate others (they play MLS games every week in the U.K. now).

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    While I think your scenario is possible, there is one factor weighing against it. The TV contract in the US kicks in for next season and I've heard that the reason that it is so much larger than the previous contract (some have said that they are over paying) is the explicit instructions to MLS is to pay the players more (i.e. get better players).

    Both sides know this, but the union wants to bring up the lower paid players (and I can't disagree with this) and the league doesn't want to just pay more for the existing talent level. How they balance off larger revenues, larger salary caps (both are a forgone conclusion) and who gets the money will be the main sticking points.

    I haven't heard of any negotiations happening yet, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't begun already. Post MLS cup up to the Super Draft will indicate whether it will be quickly resolved. If not, your scenario may come about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Apparently Taylor Twellman (who has exceptional sources) is reporting the league might move to five DPs per club; he said a month or so ago that they're also considering a significant cap increase, something like $3.5 million per. Pretty game changing if true; five top-level internationals per club really ups the profile, and MLS already gets a break on that front just by being in the U.S., which tends to fascinate others (they play MLS games every week in the U.K. now).
    Without free agency, that wins no votes in the union membership. That allows MLS to bring in more names (Michael Essien, for arguments sake) but does nothing for the 90% of existing membership that don't think they are getting a fair shake under existing rules.

    If they also allowed true free agency as part of that, and the cap went to $5M, I think that deal could get approved in February.
    Last edited by ensco; 11-29-2014 at 12:40 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    No chance the league wants to delay NYC FC and Orlando arrival. Villa, lampard and kaka all joining at the same time.

 

 

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