The official CBA thread

[ensco]

But I think sometimes we overstate the importance of the single-entity league - each team still has its own GM that negotiates the contracts individually and not every GM will value every player the same.

So true. There is way too much discussion of the "single entity" as something it is not. It is just a construct, there is no "reality" to it that is somehow interesting/different.

It is MLS' way of reducing player salaries. That is all it is.

[Ajax TFC]

I think you miss understood what I meant..

The players aren't being gobbled up there is no competition for them under the current system.. 8 players might have had a choice in the last 3 years... as in Free Agency isn't something that under normal conditions in MLS would have an effect. It is all about Money... the idea is if you have free agency the Agents can get teams bidding to raise the value of the player, and get the player more options from teams that might otherwise not even look at them...

This has nothing to do with freedom, it is all about money.

Free Agency is pointless in this league. I has no value to anyone but the Agents. The players out of contract wouldn't have teams knocking down their doors. Their Agents under free agency though would be free to try to sell teams on their players, likely at a discount trying to get a bidding war going. That is all this is about, getting players no one wants a job they don't deserve at a salary that they don't deserve.

Using the re-entry draft as evidence that players wouldn't have a choice is flawed because the players in the re-entry draft are the players who's current teams didn't want at their current salary anymore. A player who makes 70k and scores 20 goals in a contract year wont be in the re-entry draft since their current team only has to offer them a 5% increase to keep their rights. No player worth their salary goes into the re-entry draft since teams don't let go of players that are on reasonable salaries and play well (unless it's TFC releasing Avila). You only see players in the re-entry draft when their salaries are being reduced. I don't think the players are fighting for the freedom to sign for whichever team they want for less than their current salaries. They want the right to sign for different teams when their value is on the rise

[Kaz]

Using the re-entry draft as evidence that players wouldn't have a choice is flawed because the players in the re-entry draft are the players who's current teams didn't want at their current salary anymore. A player who makes 70k and scores 20 goals in a contract year wont be in the re-entry draft since their current team only has to offer them a 5% increase to keep their rights. No player worth their salary goes into the re-entry draft since teams don't let go of players that are on reasonable salaries and play well (unless it's TFC releasing Avila). You only see players in the re-entry draft when their salaries are being reduced. I don't think the players are fighting for the freedom to sign for whichever team they want for less than their current salaries. They want the right to sign for different teams when their value is on the rise

I see what you are saying.. still don't see it being much of an affect. The Re-Entry Draft is for any Out of Contract player.. if you want more money you are free to go into the re-entry draft and another team can offer you more. I'd like to know where you are getting the 5% number from. If you are on 70k scored 20 goals and your contract is up and you are only offered 5% as far as I can tell you can say no to the club and go into the re-entry draft.

No matter how you do it though it is all about greed, freedom has nothing to do with it. Because if a player really wants to go it can happen


And so yes I think it is fair the players in the Re-entry draft are an accurate representation of what happens when greed is taken out of the equation. I don't believe there are players out there being hosed to the level you are suggesting, particularly players that would benefit from free agency.

[Kaz]

It wouldn't be the first time agents put their own self-interest first.

But I think sometimes we overstate the importance of the single-entity league - each team still has its own GM that negotiates the contracts individually and not every GM will value every player the same.

If you work for BMO it is broken up into districts and each has a District Manager, a HR department often several that handles the hiring process and even the pay, which is all paid by the main Company.

If you are working at Branch x you need the Manager of Branch x to approve that move. But you can go to any where in another bank just fine. So if the players don't like this league NASL, Europe, Australia, Asia, Africa... etc.

It is hard to find a like example because of the contract work and I don't have experience with Research Labs where you have contract workers more often.

But as I recall labs have first right of refusal to resign people before they can apply to another department.

More so no matter how great I am, I can't go to my boss and demand a 50% raise in most positions because I had a good year... a 5% raise would be considered good in most professions.


The players and the media supporting the players, has basically fooled people into thinking this issue is about something other than a group of mid level players that are basically making a big Cheque signing motion.

[Beach_Red]

^ The cheque signing is a good example. We don't need analogies or examples in other industries, we can use MLS experiences. Some players are more valuable to some teams rather than others. Some GMs will offer some players more than others. True, it's not many and it doesn't seem like an issue worth losing a season, and yet here we are. So, a deal will have to be made.

[ag futbol]

The argument has to start with structure of the league. What a company like BMO does within itself is meaningless if we're actually comparing apples to oranges. MLS tells us they are a single entity, we have insufficient information to know if this is in fact true.

When you can have armies of lawyers play with your structure all day you can make things look pretty well however you want. You can make it look like one thing on the front end, then make it something else entirely on the back end. You could show profit loss numbers through MLS that make everything look collective, then equalize through SUM marketing on the back end to effectively make it every owner for themselves. Infinite other ways exist to do this, this is just one example.

In my opinion they're basically colluding to keep labor prices down. I really have little sympathy for them. Also think it's ham-fisted and not good for the league in the long term. "Go to another country / NASL" is not a formula that's going to see this league reach its potential.

[Oldtimer]

MLS is single - entity, we have an early court case that decided it. While there has been some loosening of head office control of its divisions, that's no different than some other major corporations do sometimes. The legal structure is unchanged.

[Ajax TFC]

I see what you are saying.. still don't see it being much of an affect. The Re-Entry Draft is for any Out of Contract player.. if you want more money you are free to go into the re-entry draft and another team can offer you more. I'd like to know where you are getting the 5% number from. If you are on 70k scored 20 goals and your contract is up and you are only offered 5% as far as I can tell you can say no to the club and go into the re-entry draft.

Players have no option of going to the re-entry draft. You can't decline a contract offer from your club and go to the re-entry draft. Straight from the MLS rules:

Available to all teams in Stage 1 of the Re-Entry draft will be:

1. Players who are at least 23 years old and have a minimum of three years experience in MLS whose options were not exercised by their clubs (available at option salary for 2015).
   
2. Players who are at least 25 years old with a minimum of four years of MLS experience who are out of contract and whose club does not wish to re-sign them at their previous salary (available for at least their 2014 salary).
   
3. Players who are at least 30 years old with a minimum of eight years of MLS experience who are out of contract and whose club does not wish to re-sign them (available for at least 105% of their 2014 salary).
   Players who are not selected in Stage 1 of the Re-Entry Draft will be made available in Stage 2
   
   It's all up to the club, not the player. If your club wants to resign you, there is no option of going to the re-entry draft. And I'm not sure about the 5%. I think that's the minimum salary increase per year, but I'm not completely sure about that.

[MightyDM]

Kevin Payne talks CBA

http://americansoccernow.com/article...-talks-mls-cba

this is excellent, particularly because it is clear about being a management perspective

[Ajax TFC]

Free agency is pointless in a single entity situation.

Also, I think the players need to be reminded that free agency already exits for them, its called the world transfer(free agent) market, their all lucky they have a league willing to pay them decent money in a 1st world country.

American and Canadian players need to be reminded again about how good they are, their a dime a dozen when it comes to world football.

Especially since the only players who would benefit from free agency are guys like DeRo (back when he was a top MLS player), Wondo (before be was made a DP), Davis, Nguyen, etc. But for those guys, if you don't like what you get paid in MLS, then go abroad. Their MLS teams will pay them what they have to to keep them from doing that.

[MightyDM]

MLS is single - entity, we have an early court case that decided it. While there has been some loosening of head office control of its divisions, that's no different than some other major corporations do sometimes. The legal structure is unchanged.

Its also irrelevant to us as supporters. In fact we complain about MLS head office and its interference with some frequency. (See, Melberg for example). It's wrong that teams have a one sided right with players and that needs to be fixed. Lots of room here for compromise. Let's hope that both sides don't blow it.

[MightyDM]

The argument has to start with structure of the league. What a company like BMO does within itself is meaningless if we're actually comparing apples to oranges. MLS tells us they are a single entity, we have insufficient information to know if this is in fact true.

When you can have armies of lawyers play with your structure all day you can make things look pretty well however you want. You can make it look like one thing on the front end, then make it something else entirely on the back end. You could show profit loss numbers through MLS that make everything look collective, then equalize through SUM marketing on the back end to effectively make it every owner for themselves. Infinite other ways exist to do this, this is just one example.

In my opinion they're basically colluding to keep labor prices down. I really have little sympathy for them. Also think it's ham-fisted and not good for the league in the long term. "Go to another country / NASL" is not a formula that's going to see this league reach its potential.

exactly. If we want the best possible league - and that's what the owners say too - time for the league to grow up.

[MightyDM]

Especially since the only players who would benefit from free agency are guys like DeRo (back when he was a top MLS player), Wondo (before be was made a DP), Davis, Nguyen, etc. But for those guys, if you don't like what you get paid in MLS, then go abroad. Their MLS teams will pay them what they have to to keep them from doing that.

Good point. DeRo could have tried out for Glasgow Celtic, for example.....

[Initial B]

Just a musing: Could the Players and Owners be so adamant about the free agency because allowing it would be the rock that breaks the glass house of the single-entity league structure?

[Blixa]

Even if you take single entity out of the picture, I'm not sure who would benefit from free agency. Most moves in this league are driven by the cap, and players that are underpaid relative to their performances generally don't stay underpaid for all that long. Free agency will allow players to pick where they go, but it won't make players worth 150k get paid 250k. A player worth 200k will still get paid 200k, and a player worth 300k will still get paid 300k. The cap is just too tight to allow the kind of high end salary inflation that you see in the NHL. So I guess players just want the freedom to go to better teams, or teams in better cities? I can understand that players might not like the idea that they could be stuck in a place like Columbus.

Not every player might benefit but there's a reason why the owners are so vehemently opposed.

[Richard]

Just a musing: Could the Players and Owners be so adamant about the free agency because allowing it would be the rock that breaks the glass house of the single-entity league structure?

I think that's possible though I'm not sure why the league is so afraid of moving away from single entity, its been proven that with a solid cap structure or foreign restrictions wages can be kept in check.

[kshep]

Players have no option of going to the re-entry draft. You can't decline a contract offer from your club and go to the re-entry draft. Straight from the MLS rules:

Available to all teams in Stage 1 of the Re-Entry draft will be:

1. Players who are at least 23 years old and have a minimum of three years experience in MLS whose options were not exercised by their clubs (available at option salary for 2015).
2. Players who are at least 25 years old with a minimum of four years of MLS experience who are out of contract and whose club does not wish to re-sign them at their previous salary (available for at least their 2014 salary).
3. Players who are at least 30 years old with a minimum of eight years of MLS experience who are out of contract and whose club does not wish to re-sign them (available for at least 105% of their 2014 salary).
   Players who are not selected in Stage 1 of the Re-Entry Draft will be made available in Stage 2
   
   It's all up to the club, not the player. If your club wants to resign you, there is no option of going to the re-entry draft. And I'm not sure about the 5%. I think that's the minimum salary increase per year, but I'm not completely sure about that.

If I'm understanding correctly then, modifying the re-entry process to give the players the option to voluntary enter the draft upon the completion of their contract, rather than being forced to re-sign with their current club should be what the league proposes.

Would that be sufficient enough for the players to qualify as free agency? The player would than risk not being picked up by any club and be forced to seek a club outside the league?

[ag futbol]

MLS is single - entity, we have an early court case that decided it. While there has been some loosening of head office control of its divisions, that's no different than some other major corporations do sometimes. The legal structure is unchanged.

The court case basically says on the balance of the arguments brought up at that time by the players, there is no evidence to suggest MLS is conspiring to restrict wages. That is not to say there are no arguments that exist which might give rise to a contrary verdict. Things have also changed since the time that opinion was issued with more than a few people suggesting that new items like the DP rule single handedly destroy MLS's previous anti-trust defence.

So I don't think that previous legal case is really the definitive answer you want here.

[ensco]

The court case basically says on the balance of the arguments brought up at that time by the players, there is no evidence to suggest MLS is conspiring to restrict wages. That is not to say there are no arguments that exist which might give rise to a contrary verdict. Things have also changed since the time that opinion was issued with more than a few people suggesting that new items like the DP rule single handedly destroy MLS's previous anti-trust defence.

So I don't think that previous legal case is really the definitive answer you want here.

That group of people includes Bez himself.

[Kaz]

If I'm understanding correctly then, modifying the re-entry process to give the players the option to voluntary enter the draft upon the completion of their contract, rather than being forced to re-sign with their current club should be what the league proposes.

Would that be sufficient enough for the players to qualify as free agency? The player would than risk not being picked up by any club and be forced to seek a club outside the league?

Well I also believe in practice that "does not wish to re-sign them" would include the player saying I want an extra 50k a year and the club saying no we aren't going to resign at that. They can be put in the re-entry draft in that way.. which is I believe why several players resign during or before the draft process. (I don't know that for sure but I'm thinking that is part of the process)

We will see what happens.

I honestly do not believe as it is now there are a lot of issues. What happened to Issey needs to be addressed in the CBA that isn't fair for someone that has been playing for years (international or domestic) but Free Agency honestly if the players want full free agency then honestly let the league die. I don't watch a single sport with full free agency.

[kshep]

Well I also believe in practice that "does not wish to re-sign them" would include the player saying I want an extra 50k a year and the club saying no we aren't going to resign at that. They can be put in the re-entry draft in that way.. which is I believe why several players resign during or before the draft process. (I don't know that for sure but I'm thinking that is part of the process)

We will see what happens.

I honestly do not believe as it is now there are a lot of issues. What happened to Issey needs to be addressed in the CBA that isn't fair for someone that has been playing for years (international or domestic) but Free Agency honestly if the players want full free agency then honestly let the league die. I don't watch a single sport with full free agency.

I agree, there should be some type of no movement clause for players entering the league. If a team brings in a player from outside the league, that player should know that for his first full season he's not going to end up being moved to another team (unless said player agrees to the move).

And yes, I do believe clubs should retain the right to refuse a player an extra 50k per year if they believe the player is not worth it, though as you say that should automatically trigger the players release to the re-entry process.

I think If they eliminated the re-entry process as a draft, and instead moved to a re-entry pool in which any club is free to discuss terms with any player in the pool might be the way to go.

I see the re-entry draft process as the players major problem because it's a draft and eliminates the players ability to freely negotiate with any club (with the exception of the club they just left), by moving to a pool system it could possibly allow the players the freedom of movement they seek, without driving up wages to a great extent. Because gm's will still be able to offer what they can/feel a players value is, and as some have stated certain gm's will value players in a re-entry pool based upon positional need and player quality.

Edit: added this.
Could a pool system drive wages up yes, but the responsibility lies directly in the leagues gm's hands, certain teams might try to outbid each other for certain players but only to a certain extent, as they still have to consider the rest of their roster and maintain cap compliance.

[Initial B]

^Perhaps what owners are afraid of is one particular owner (NYCFC/TFC/LAG/SS) pushing up the price of a player they want from another club, forcing the club to raise the offer to keep him, at which point the rich owner moves on to another player they are targeting in another club and force the owning club to raise his wage, and so on throught the league and lowering the overall profitability of the league and/or increasing the debt.

[ag futbol]

So ignoring our usual management vs players pissing match for a second where do things stand currently? Looks like players are voting, strike imminent? Still far apart on main issues?

[kshep]

@ Initial B

I see what your saying, but it still has to work under the cap for the richer teams (unless they make that player a dp)

With this type of system you have to remember that before any player enters the pool he would have already had contract talks with his current club. If the current club and player could not reach an agreeable deal only then would said player enter the re-entry pool. At this point he would be free to negotiate with any club for his services (with the exception of the club he just left.)

At that point the player is assuming the risk of not being offered a deal @ the money he seeks, or may in fact recieve a better deal than the one his previous club was offering. The way I see it, it's the player than taking the risk of not being signed by any team in the league (due to perceived value by player/agent) and would then be forced to seek a new league.

Not sure if it could work, just posting the random thoughts that bounce around in my noggin.

[OgtheDim]

So ignoring our usual management vs players pissing match for a second where do things stand currently? Looks like players are voting, strike imminent? Still far apart on main issues?

Talking this week. More players (agents for their agents in many cases) at the table this week. Both sides coming out with information discussing approaches but no news about what is actually happening.

[OgtheDim]

Bradley is already in New York. Waxman (his agent) tweeted a photo of them having dinner last night.

That's apparently not correct as Bradley was shown at practice today during Vanney's remarks.

[Macksam]

Players have no option of going to the re-entry draft. You can't decline a contract offer from your club and go to the re-entry draft. Straight from the MLS rules:

Available to all teams in Stage 1 of the Re-Entry draft will be:

1. Players who are at least 23 years old and have a minimum of three years experience in MLS whose options were not exercised by their clubs (available at option salary for 2015).
2. Players who are at least 25 years old with a minimum of four years of MLS experience who are out of contract and whose club does not wish to re-sign them at their previous salary (available for at least their 2014 salary).
3. Players who are at least 30 years old with a minimum of eight years of MLS experience who are out of contract and whose club does not wish to re-sign them (available for at least 105% of their 2014 salary).
   Players who are not selected in Stage 1 of the Re-Entry Draft will be made available in Stage 2
   
   It's all up to the club, not the player. If your club wants to resign you, there is no option of going to the re-entry draft. And I'm not sure about the 5%. I think that's the minimum salary increase per year, but I'm not completely sure about that.

Lol, awesome. You called him out on his excrement

Well I also believe in practice that "does not wish to re-sign them" would include the player saying I want an extra 50k a year and the club saying no we aren't going to resign at that. They can be put in the re-entry draft in that way.. which is I believe why several players resign during or before the draft process. (I don't know that for sure but I'm thinking that is part of the process)

[Fort York Redcoat]

Lol, awesome. You called him out on his excrement

Wrong. He supplied facts after being asked to. Both adding to the discussion.

Unlike your post. Try adding to the discussion instead of this kind of superfluous invective.

Thank you.

[Super]

Does anyone know how many season tickets have been sold so far? I wonder what will happen to them if the season is cancelled (probably refunded in full of course) or if the season is shortened. Could get messy.

[Beach_Red]

Does anyone know how many season tickets have been sold so far? I wonder what will happen to them if the season is cancelled (probably refunded in full of course) or if the season is shortened. Could get messy.

Well, there's lots of precedents. What did the NHL and MLB do when they shortened or cancelled seasons?