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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdubs View Post
    Bendik proved his worth our true #1. Frei lost his spot.
    Koev was injured the whole time any only scored in reserve game. Nelson wanted him to play but Koev couldn't get fit.
    Ecks is do to make $400,000- $500,000 this year. Not worth it, why put time into someone you know won't be playing the following season. And his form was questionable. Ecks had his opportunity to play, got injured and lost his spot.

    Caldwell had nothing but praise for Nelson. Say he is biased or whatever but gave Nelson his confidence. I think context is very important and we tend to forget about it. Prime example is Nelson's post game interviews. If you read the transcript you get a very different perspective then from listening to an audio/video of the same conversation.
    Caldwell said something about maybe he should have been more of a link between squad and management suggesting that there was an issue. And let's not even get into nelsen's deluded post-match comments. It has nothing to do with what I'm referring to.

    You don't tell people Ecks is injured when he's fit and ready to play, Same with Califf. You don't leave your senior guys whistling in the wind for weeks on end about their position and status. You don't mock Danny for trying to get the young guys enough of a wage to make ends meet in a city like this.

    And let's not forget his substitutions (and lack thereof) during so many games last year that had just about everybody scratching their head or tearing their hair out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wull View Post
    Caldwell said something about maybe he should have been more of a link between squad and management suggesting that there was an issue. And let's not even get into nelsen's deluded post-match comments. It has nothing to do with what I'm referring to.

    You don't tell people Ecks is injured when he's fit and ready to play, Same with Califf. You don't leave your senior guys whistling in the wind for weeks on end about their position and status. You don't mock Danny for trying to get the young guys enough of a wage to make ends meet in a city like this.

    And let's not forget his substitutions (and lack thereof) during so many games last year that had just about everybody scratching their head or tearing their hair out.
    Look Koev's, Ecks, and Frei all knew it was over for them. You said he alienated them, I am responding to that point. The point is Koev was never fit, he knew it was over for him. Frei just lost his spot whether he never got a chance doesn't matter.

    With regard to Eck's I remember a quote saying he was confused as he stated he wasn't injured and wasn't sure why he wasn't playing. We don't have the whole story the other side. You can even connect the dots and say based on the Koev situation (badly injured, came back too early maybe and had that calf issue that wouldn't go away) that Eck's was going down same path. Based on the information we have I think it is safe to say Eck's was out with a nagging Hamstring injury for an extended period. Bloom came in and honestly didn't do anything to really warrant his removal from the first team. With the later part of the season left, Nelson wanted to get a good look at Bloom.

    Since you raise the issue of man-management skills I will also suggest Nelson never lost the locker room. No evidence to suggest he did The three players you point out have several things in common.
    1. All injured and missed large amount of time (Ecks less so but was out with that hamstring injury)
    2. Replaced by players who did nothing to warrant removal (Bendik and Bloom). Koev was never fit.
    3. Since they weren't playing and command a large salary knew their futures at the club were less then certain. In fact we knew Frei would be gone, Koev wouldn't get DP money again, and Ecks would never ever get $400,000 t $500,000 as a fullback this upcoming season regardless if he played well!

    Look i am not Nelson has to improve his management skills. However I think people are quick to blame him. These 3 players in particular have reasons to not praise Nelson.
    Last edited by pdubs; 01-15-2014 at 10:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfcleeds View Post
    I agree with you on the first part. But Frei never got a chance. (Yes, I remember the shellacking in Montreal, but still).
    I agree. Problem is Bendik did nothing to warrant his removal. In fact you could argue Bendik was our top 1 or 2 players this past season and kept us in games we had no business being in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdubs View Post
    Look Koev's, Ecks, and Frei all knew it was over for them. You said he alienated them, I am responding to that point. The point is Koev was never fit, he knew it was over for him. Frei just lost his spot whether he never got a chance doesn't matter.

    With regard to Eck's I remember a quote saying he was confused as he stated he wasn't injured and wasn't sure why he wasn't playing. We don't have the whole story the other side. You can even connect the dots and say based on the Koev situation (badly injured, came back too early maybe and had that calf issue that wouldn't go away) that Eck's was going down same path. Based on the information we have I think it is safe to say Eck's was out with a nagging Hamstring injury for an extended period. Bloom came in and honestly didn't do anything to really warrant his removal from the first team.

    Since you raise the issue of man-management skills I will also suggest Nelson never lost the locker room. No evidence to suggest he did The three players you point out have several things in common.
    1. All injured and missed large amount of time (Ecks less so but was out with that hamstring injury)
    2. Replaced by players who did nothing to warrant removal (Bendik and Bloom). Koev was never fit.
    3. Since they weren't playing and command a large salary knew their futures at the club were less them certain. In fact we knew Frei would be gone, Koev wouldn't get DP money again, and Ecks would never ever get $400,000 t $500,000 as a fullback.

    Look i am not Nelson has to improve his management skills. However I think people are quick to blame him. These 3 players in particular have reasons to not praise Nelson.
    Bloom was utter dogshit his first few games so to say he did nothing to warrant removal isn't correct in my opinion (his last few games were a lot better to be fair). And, just because someone has a big contract doesn't mean you freeze them out without talking to them for weeks, if they are acting like good pros then treat them as such. The players even found out about a player leaving from the press one day (I'll be damned if I can remember who but i remember o'dea being captain and saying he wasn't surprised as that tends to happen here). If the club don't start communicating better with the team as a whole and the coach in particular, I think it's going to create an issue where there really doesn't have to be one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wull View Post
    Bloom was utter dogshit his first few games so to say he did nothing to warrant removal isn't correct in my opinion (his last few games were a lot better to be fair). And, just because someone has a big contract doesn't mean you freeze them out without talking to them for weeks, if they are acting like good pros then treat them as such. The players even found out about a player leaving from the press one day (I'll be damned if I can remember who but i remember o'dea being captain and saying he wasn't surprised as that tends to happen here). If the club don't start communicating better with the team as a whole and the coach in particular, I think it's going to create an issue where there really doesn't have to be one.
    I agree Bloom improved towards the end. All I am saying is on about $40,000-$50,000. Ecks has another zero on the end of that. Ecks also has the opportunity to approach Nelson and management and ask his status. Two way street these guys aren't babies, go up to management and figure out your own personal situation.

    Wasn't that Urruti? And I think that was Koev's at practice asking where Urruti was. Maybe not can't remember either. Agree strange situation but again I think we need more details about when Nelson knew and how upper management was dealing with the contract. Nelson doesn't deal with contracts, GM's do. Foggy tho when Payne left, then Bez came little while later and Urruti was traded.

    Think Nelson will take the first year and move forward and improve. If he doesn't he will be canned 10 or so games in. Just want to give him benefit of the doubt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wull View Post
    Bloom was utter dogshit his first few games so to say he did nothing to warrant removal isn't correct in my opinion (his last few games were a lot better to be fair). And, just because someone has a big contract doesn't mean you freeze them out without talking to them for weeks, if they are acting like good pros then treat them as such. The players even found out about a player leaving from the press one day (I'll be damned if I can remember who but i remember o'dea being captain and saying he wasn't surprised as that tends to happen here). If the club don't start communicating better with the team as a whole and the coach in particular, I think it's going to create an issue where there really doesn't have to be one.
    Not trying to defend Nelson automatically here, he definitely has a lot to work on as a manager.

    but keep in mind the comments O'Dea made about players leaving were made during Kevin Payne's tenure. There were reports on here and elsewhere saying the relationship between Nelson and Payne eroded as the season went on... when it comes to player movement maybe the lines of communication were cut completely through the club. The main reason I suspect this is since leaving the club, O'Dea has had nothing but good things to say about Nelson, Chimed in a lot when guys like larson were putting pressure on him. You would figure if he didn't like what he did, he would probably keep his mouth shut.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wull View Post
    Bloom was utter dogshit his first few games so to say he did nothing to warrant removal isn't correct in my opinion (his last few games were a lot better to be fair). And, just because someone has a big contract doesn't mean you freeze them out without talking to them for weeks, if they are acting like good pros then treat them as such. The players even found out about a player leaving from the press one day (I'll be damned if I can remember who but i remember o'dea being captain and saying he wasn't surprised as that tends to happen here). If the club don't start communicating better with the team as a whole and the coach in particular, I think it's going to create an issue where there really doesn't have to be one.
    Pretty sure that was the Silva trade. Yeah, let's hope we conduct business in a bit more professional manner going forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wull View Post
    Bloom was utter dogshit his first few games
    Based on what?!?

    Unless I'm remembering this wrong in my middle-age infirmity. Richter was utter dogshit in his first few games. Bloom was not. He pretty much overachieved, if anything.

    Koevs was a locker-room cancer; you're never going to actually change anything with a ridiculous statement about how hard life is for others, particularly when you're collecting enormous paycheques and doing fuck all for it, except to reinforce that issue with people it bothers most, the other players. He also dubbed us publicly "the worst team in the world". I have no problem believing that was the tip of the iceberg with his attitude. Great striker, shitty, shitty DP.

    We don't know what's going on in the locker room. But Steven Caldwell has been about as respected a player as you get for most of his career and has nothing, at this stage of career, to lose by being honest. So his comments again make it more likely that a handful of players were bitching about things largely beyond Nelsen's control.

    Also, why are you so quick to trust an offhand comment from Darren O'Dea who, for his salary, was pretty mediocre? Given how upset he might well have been to find himself on the move and knowing at the time of the comment that they were trying to get rid of him, he probably just made a pissy remark about something he should've known about. He's never been the brightest card in the deck, which is why he got the "Darren Oh Dear!" nickname at Leeds after getting himself thrown out of too many games for accumulated yellows.

    Nelsen has a long track record of respect from his teammates for being a direct and honest person. On the other hand, many professional athletes have egos, are quick to temper, have been babied their entire professional lives and tend to say really, really dumb shit. I agree with you that there was at least the outward appearance of a communication breakdown, but given the changes the team was going under, it seems more logical that this was player sour grapes than the possibility that people have been misreading Ryan Nelsen's character for about fifteen years now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfcleeds View Post
    Pretty sure that was the Silva trade. Yeah, let's hope we conduct business in a bit more professional manner going forward.
    You're assuming O'Dear was right and didn't just miss the meeting when they were told.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    You're assuming O'Dear was right and didn't just miss the meeting when they were told.
    You may be right - honestly, I don't remember all the details. I remember being pretty pissed off when it happened, so that may have coloured my judgment. I still think there is plenty of room for improvement in how Nelsen man-manages and communicates with the squad.

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    Good points being raised - especially Pookie's core issue of egos and Nelsen's job of keeping such a "financially diverse" roster in line.

    Honestly, I believe most professional athletes for most of the time will endeavor to play their best regardless of their pay rate simply because they want to win and have a competitive nature in them. Yes, occasionally a player who wishes to leave a club may show a drop in performance, or perhaps an increase if he is shooting for a new contract; but I don't think players are really all that concerned about what their teammates are taking home, and if they are, they are undoubtedly mindful that it's the league that decides the salary cap, as well as player minimum and maximum salaries, bonuses, and fees. This is especially true in the case of MLS where contracts are held between the individual player and the league (though admittedly, the club is still heavily represented in negotiations).

    Perhaps all this talk is rather moot because I don't see Nelsen going anywhere this season. He'll be given up to the playoffs to prove he can coach and manage this squad. If we make the post-season, he'll be secure for 2015. If we fail again despite our huge injection of talent, he'll be out the door. But he's got from March to the end of October to show what he can do, and honestly, I think this club is just gonna want to win full-stop.
    Last edited by Cashcleaner; 01-16-2014 at 05:04 AM.
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    O'Dea has actually been one of Nelsen's biggest boosters on Twitter. He comments pretty regularly and positively on TFC stuff.

    Regarding Nelsen, I think we can all agree the jury is out on him and this year will tell a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfcleeds View Post
    I agree with you on the first part. But Frei never got a chance. (Yes, I remember the shellacking in Montreal, but still).
    Victim of a tightly capped league. Take sentimentality out, why would you give Frei a chance? Bendik earned his spot, and makes $150k less than Frei. I do think a fit Frei would be better than Bendik, but Bendik is a good enough keeper in this league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Based on what?!?

    Unless I'm remembering this wrong in my middle-age infirmity. Richter was utter dogshit in his first few games. Bloom was not. He pretty much overachieved, if anything.

    Koevs was a locker-room cancer; you're never going to actually change anything with a ridiculous statement about how hard life is for others, particularly when you're collecting enormous paycheques and doing fuck all for it, except to reinforce that issue with people it bothers most, the other players. He also dubbed us publicly "the worst team in the world". I have no problem believing that was the tip of the iceberg with his attitude. Great striker, shitty, shitty DP.

    We don't know what's going on in the locker room. But Steven Caldwell has been about as respected a player as you get for most of his career and has nothing, at this stage of career, to lose by being honest. So his comments again make it more likely that a handful of players were bitching about things largely beyond Nelsen's control.

    Also, why are you so quick to trust an offhand comment from Darren O'Dea who, for his salary, was pretty mediocre? Given how upset he might well have been to find himself on the move and knowing at the time of the comment that they were trying to get rid of him, he probably just made a pissy remark about something he should've known about. He's never been the brightest card in the deck, which is why he got the "Darren Oh Dear!" nickname at Leeds after getting himself thrown out of too many games for accumulated yellows.

    Nelsen has a long track record of respect from his teammates for being a direct and honest person. On the other hand, many professional athletes have egos, are quick to temper, have been babied their entire professional lives and tend to say really, really dumb shit. I agree with you that there was at least the outward appearance of a communication breakdown, but given the changes the team was going under, it seems more logical that this was player sour grapes than the possibility that people have been misreading Ryan Nelsen's character for about fifteen years now.
    Based on him causing 2-3 goals against in his first few games.

    Danny was well liked in the dressing room actually. You can ask around about that.

    Steven is a good pro who was trying to control the situation with his comments.

    I'm not "trusting an off-hand comment" if you can find the article he didn't actually mean it maliciously but it just seemed so run of the mill that they are kept in the dark the way he says it which was and is an issue (and that is coming from odea's biggest detractor).

    I don't believe that all of these players are suddenly an issue after years of turmoil where they kept their nose clean. i honestly doubt you will hear any of them speak negatively on Ryan but it doesn't mean it isn't an issue although it is clearly far better than life under mo/cochrane and winter/mariner and possibly even payne/nelsen. I see this as more of an issue of ryan transitioning from being a player to a coach than good pros suddenly having sour grapes but hopefully it gets better going forward

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wull View Post
    Based on him causing 2-3 goals against in his first few games.
    Which were against the Supporter Shield winners NYRB, and eventual MLS Cup winners SKC. His third game set up Dike in the 4-1 win v DCU.

    I think the jury is still out but you are being a bit harsh on a guy who walked into the starting XI within a week and played two of the best teams in the league with guys he's never played with, or against.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spark View Post
    Which were against the Supporter Shield winners NYRB, and eventual MLS Cup winners SKC. His third game set up Dike in the 4-1 win v DCU.

    I think the jury is still out but you are being a bit harsh on a guy who walked into the starting XI within a week and played two of the best teams in the league with guys he's never played with, or against.
    I did say there was a big improvement in his last few games so i don't think I was being too harsh in the context of what we were talking about

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wull View Post
    Based on him causing 2-3 goals against in his first few games.
    No, "utter dogshit" is pretty unfair. I just went back and looked at the first four games, starting on Sept. 14. He gets beaten by Thierry Henry on the backpost, but didn't leave him more than a foot (the 'lean' goal) . Most MLS strikers probably don't finish that.

    Then he's left mismatched against C.J. Sapong on a set piece at KC and Sapong beats him easily for a headed goal. Why is Mark Bloom left to cover their biggest, strongest striker?

    That was it. He also created our second goal in the 4-1 win over DC by collecting the ball after Rey was tripped, keeping the play going by overlapping and crossing the ball in to Dike for his first goal.

    Both the goals are very much team fuckups and he had an assist. Not exactly time to judge fairly.

    And again, I didn't say Koevermans wasn't well-liked. I suggested he was going to cause divisions with some of his statements. Lots of guys are well liked but are still effectively hurting the unity of a team.

    As for Nelsen's tactics, I agree the jury is still out, but the last few games of the season we looked a whole lot better than when Payne (who had been known for interfering with his coaches throughout his tenure at DC) was still here. Maybe that was due toadding Alvaro Rey and Dike, particularly the former.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    No, "utter dogshit" is pretty unfair. I just went back and looked at the first four games, starting on Sept. 14. He gets beaten by Thierry Henry on the backpost, but didn't leave him more than a foot (the 'lean' goal) . Most MLS strikers probably don't finish that.

    Then he's left mismatched against C.J. Sapong on a set piece at KC and Sapong beats him easily for a headed goal. Why is Mark Bloom left to cover their biggest, strongest striker?

    That was it. He also created our second goal in the 4-1 win over DC by collecting the ball after Rey was tripped, keeping the play going by overlapping and crossing the ball in to Dike for his first goal.

    Both the goals are very much team fuckups and he had an assist. Not exactly time to judge fairly.

    And again, I didn't say Koevermans wasn't well-liked. I suggested he was going to cause divisions with some of his statements. Lots of guys are well liked but are still effectively hurting the unity of a team.

    As for Nelsen's tactics, I agree the jury is still out, but the last few games of the season we looked a whole lot better than when Payne (who had been known for interfering with his coaches throughout his tenure at DC) was still here. Maybe that was due toadding Alvaro Rey and Dike, particularly the former.
    When you're averaging causing a goal against per game to start with, I don't think utter dogshit is too harsh for any player.

    I'm not going to use a game against DC's youth team as a baromoter for anyone or anything.

    I actually think the addition of Dike was the biggest help for the likes of Bloom, Convey, Rey, Morgan and even Bendik. Instead of crossing into the likes of Earnshaw like we had to in the early part of the season where they had to try and get creative to get it to him instead of the big defenders most teams have, they could just ping one into a decent area or in bendik's case just launch it upfield and we had someone who could compete well for it in the air, was vastly more mobile than Braun and who, even if he didn't win it, was enough of a menace to cause turnovers that weren't happening before he came in. I just hope they realize that in the preferred line up, this won't be an option again so they have to work on their through balls, cut backs and getting themselves into the box as support if our strikers are able to hold the ball up better this year

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    O'Dea has actually been one of Nelsen's biggest boosters on Twitter. He comments pretty regularly and positively on TFC stuff.
    Such as this:

    Darren O'Dea@odea_darren Jan 12
    MLS and TFC don't help itself with gaining credibility in the footballing world. A rapper has an influence on a player signing?? No chance!



    Then this:

    Darren O'Dea@odea_darren Jan 12
    I'm not downing the signing. Just giving an insight into how it's viewed outside of MLS. Either way it's brilliant for TFC.


    He should get into politics after his football career is done.
    Last edited by 0bl1vious; 01-19-2014 at 05:57 PM.

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    http://www.torontosun.com/2014/01/21...als-new-season

    “Everyone will learn that we have a set of rules and a code of conduct that we expect everybody at TFC to follow,” he said. “We’re trying to build that, a fantastic football club for the future ... I’m certain that everyone who is lucky enough to wear that shirt will do that.”


    Caldwell, the captain
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

 

 

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