Originally Posted by JuliquE
Swansea also share their ground with the Ospreys rugby team. Between their league and Heineken Cup matches, the Ospreys play around 20 home games a year during the same time Swansea play. I've never noticed Swansea having issues with the quality of their pitch.
Lets remember that rugby plays all over the pitch whereas CFL / NFL use tracks up and down the filed. It puts a totally different dimension of stress on very specific areas of the grass.
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Twitter: @RPBPhil
CFL / NFL only has approximately 12 minutes of live play though.
I was speaking more to how the hybrid pitches stand up to increased use.
I didnt know Swansea had that type of surface till I read it in here and was surprised. As a Leinster fan I've watched lots of games from the Liberty Stadium and I don't remember there ever being an issue with the quality of the pitch.
Last edited by Areathrasher; 01-15-2014 at 10:05 AM.
[QUOTE=PopePouri;1634609]CFL / NFL only has approximately 12 minutes of live play though.[/QUOT
Oh for sure, its a concern that needs to be looked at. Remember the NFL game at Wembly? It tore the pitch up. Not saything that can't be managed or delt with but it will need a serious amount of attention. If we are jamming CCL games in during the season, that means heavy rotation on the Wed / Sat schedule for us, then pop in the odd Argo game. It could get very dicey.
Road Trips: July 7 2007 Chicago, July 22nd 2007 Columbus, August 11 2007 NY, October 13 2007 LA, March 29 2008 Columbus, May 24th 2008 DC, May 26 2008 Montreal, June 28th 2008 NE, March 7-11-14 2009 Charleston, March 28 2009 Columbus, April 10 2010 New England, May 12 2010 Montreal, April 7 2012 Montreal, March 16 2013 Montreal , June 3 2014 Montreal, March 14 2015 Columbus
Twitter: @RPBPhil
[QUOTE=Phil;1634615]Why not push for a Friday/Saturday (MLS) game time for TFC and a Saturday/Sunday game for the Argos? Would give 6-7 days for turf repair. V Cup games would be done before the CFL starts. CCL games, if they made it, would require a little juggling.
I'd also push for extended road trips for them during the fall and perhaps for TFC during the summer.
@ Denime: Re: High school games at BMO. There were high school games there aplenty when the pitch was synthetic. I was there for some of them. I'm not suggesting in my previous post that there'd be weekly school games, but something like the annual showcase for school baseball or football held at the dome. Given BMO's current usage levels, that's not an arduous addition and it's one many in the high school system want to see. It's also a good marketing tactic for MLSE - get good numbers of fans in from the most desirable demographic.
Not sure how many memories on this board stretch back far enough to remember when the Argos played on grass at the old CNE Stadium. There were some really bad days, including Grey Cups, where the field would come up in big chunks. I remember going down to field level with my dad one year and we brought a two-foot strip home as a souvenir. I realize modern pitch design systems have greatly improved the quality of natural grass fields, but football players are much bigger and stronger than they were in my youth and can wreak all sorts of havoc. If they play on a wet weekend and we have a mid-week game, it's a safe bet we're gonna have trouble keeping the ball on the deck.
And you don't bring on board players like Defoe or Bradley, or even DeRosario, to lump high balls forward for them to win in the air.
We need to remain cynical about all this stadium re-development because it won't be an issue this year. The Argos aren't required to move for another couple of seasons. But this is the year when certain decisions will be made. Leiweke has blown a load of sunshine up our pant legs to get everybody happy in the short term - good new acquisitions, pricing freezes and plenty of blather about improving the 'sakker' experience. At no time has he ruled out football coming to BMO.
What's interesting about him being coy regarding football is that, prior to joining TFC, Leiweke worked for AEG in London and, in turn, with Spurs in helping them with their failed bid to take over London's Olympic stadium site after the gams concluded. It failed mainly due a highly corrupt bidding process that Spurs forced into court to resolve to their satisfaction. Leiweke moved on, and Spurs gained zoning approval to build a new 56,000 seater right next to their current ground.
A few months back, Spurs dumped their architects and brought in Populus, a global leader in stadium building, to re-design it. Word leaked out that the re-design was upping capacity to around 70,000 and would feature a retractable playing surface. There was a lot of head scratching about that because proposed housing development on the stadium site left no room for a retractable pitch to move into. However, the housing development may be shifted elsewhere within a broader re-generation scheme because the motive for pitch switching is to allow the stadium to become home field for London's proposed NFL franchise.
Wembley isn't feasible as a long-term permanent home for an NFL franchise. And trying to sell 90,000 seats isn't always a sure thing. But 70,000 is a more manageable number and the NFL likes the optics of a sold out stadium. The biggest problem in getting the stadium built is finding a naming rights sponsor to pony up and start the shovels digging. Pretty much everything else is a go, but it's been a couple of years now and Spurs still haven't found a deal they like.
So here comes Leiweke again, with his new pals at MLSE, to partner up with Spurs and help them on the commercial side of the game. You have to wonder - are MLSE looking to buy into Spurs? Or is there a bigger game to be played?
By helping to create the circumstances that let a vitally important NFL project become feasible in London, MLSE would learn a great deal about life in the NFL and become familiar - more familiar? - with the league's movers and shakers. And, conversely, the league with MLSE. It's quite likely that they'd also be looked upon more favourably should they wish to acquire an NFL franchise for Toronto.
Which raises further questions about the sensibility of re-fitting BMO Field for CFL use. It might work in the short term, but I'm sad to say that Toronto has outgrown the CFL. Just like it has with junior hockey. Ask a Toronto teenager to name 10 CFL players. Or name Ottawa's new franchise. You'll wait a long time to find half a dozen. Do the same with the NFL and you can hardly shut them up. The world's changed and that's just the way it is in Toronto. It's not changing back. We only want the best and if it isn't played on our doorstep, we'll watch it on TV or travel to see it.
I can't imagine for a second that having a fling with Spurs and the impending London NFL team will be enough for MLSE. My gut feeling is that they will want to be involved a lot more and they will want it to happen in Toronto. To match my earlier point regarding newly acquired players, you don't bring in someone of Leiweke's ability and ambition to safely and comfortably manage what you already have. He's walked the biggest stages in sport and he and MLSE want Toronto to be numbered among such sites. The company itself can't own the NFL franchise, but it can build and operate the stadium and use it to house even bigger events than they already do. Far bigger and, more importantly, massively more lucrative than anything the CFL can serve up.
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 01-15-2014 at 12:05 PM.
^^^ wow. just wow. lots of connected dots there. makes too much sense to not be at least a possibility
Thought this might be of interest:
http://gosw.about.com/od/sportsandre...lstadium_3.htm
Had no idea such a thing existed. So maybe solutions are available, but certainly not at the $100-150M budget Leiweke is talking about.
Last edited by ag futbol; 01-15-2014 at 12:36 PM.
I think NFL to BMO is a reach, American football is never coming here. They don't need us, and we're fine without them. I think the main reason BMO expansion talk even started was the desire to host a Winter Classic during the Leafs 100 year anniversary. BMO is the only logical place in Toronto to host it, and it would need a much larger capacity. MLSE wants government to pitch in some money for the considerable cost, which they won't do just for a one off event. BMO also happened to be the most logical destination for the Argos since they aren't getting significant public money to build a brand new stadium.
A reno to BMO makes sense for all parties. MLSE gets to hold big events like the Winter Classic and Grey Cup, Argos find a home for cheap, TFC gets increased capacity and a roof. The only problem is the pitch, but all we can do at this point is hope TL is committed to ensuring it stays in the best possible condition. Because it seems all but guaranteed the Argos are coming to BMO.
There's no suggestion that BMO would host the NFL. That would require a stadium on a whole other level. But hasn't Leiweke already stated that MLSE is prepared to take on the costs of expanding BMO without gov't money? I didn't hear him say that but someone else told me that was part of one of his many, many interviews.
The NFL doesn't need Toronto. Doesn't need London, either. But it's going there, that much is clear. What the NFL does want to is grow internationally. They need to do that just to offset the encroaching growth of soccer in North America. London doesn't present any language issues and minimal cultural issues. Toronto would be an even easier fit.
Wherever money accumulates in sufficient numbers, things gravitate to it. There's a lot of money, in many hands, in Toronto and MLSE is well connected to them. The CFL doesn't offer anything close to a proper ROI, let alone an ego stroke, to ambitious investors.
"The only problem is the pitch, but all we can do at this point is hope TL is committed to ensuring it stays in the best possible condition." Uh, no. That's far too passive and compliant an attitude. Are you Tom Anselmi's son? There's a lot that can be said before any final decision is made and a firm, clear statement needs to be made collectively by TFC supporters that having the Argos in is not a desired option. When the core product is sufficient to give MLSE a substantial profit and a clear road to growing that prosperity, you don't entertain bringing in something that will impair the quality of the core product. Simple business logic. Especially when that corrosive additional element shows no likelihood of growing its own game in Toronto.
The CFL signed a deal with TSN last year that allegedly pays enough that all salaries for players are covered before the first game kicks off. Anything from gates is profit. And 10-12 dates per year of 28-30 000 people plus booze and food isn't exactly nothing. As far as NFL goes the rumor of the city bidding for the 2024 olympics though fits with the timing of the Bills contract in Buffalo ending. I could easily see MLSE waiting for the Province and Feds to pitch half on an 80 000 seat stadium for the summer games to buy and move the team here full time.
As for the Cardinals thing, I mentioned that a few days ago. The reason that can't work here is simple- they drag the grass outside to grow. We can't do that. Grass here needs to be growing indoors outside of a few months in the summer. The only way this can work here is if turf is dropped on top of the grass for CFL games and manages to not kill the grass. Which, while I don't see how it could happen, is I guess theoretically possible.
And yes, CFL (or NFL) mostly works on the hashmarks. Rugby is all over the pitch. There's a reason the natural grass NFL stadiums absolutely disintegrate between the hashmarks by december. They get chewed the hell up
In his latest interviews he mentioned the city will have to pay a part of the reno costs, but MLSE will still cover "the vast majority". And BTW London and Toronto are on entirely different priority levels for the NFL. The former would open a huge market in a place where there is next to no NFL following. The NFL is already very popular across Canada, and while Toronto is a big market, there are several US cities that will need to get teams before we do.
The Argos are coming to BMO, and there is nothing we can do about it. It's the only way the city will contribute anything because it solves the problem of building a brand new stadium just for 10 games or so per year. Just read the article in the first post. I think once the plans are announced there won't be a huge amount of backlash, especially if we have a winning team. The reno will have tangible benefits to TFC fans in the form of increased capacity, a roof, and better facilities. It's not all bad for us. As long as sightlines and grass are maintained, that leaves the ONLY issue being the pitch (yes I know how important it is). It sucks, no doubt about it, but most fans will live with it if MLSE shows a commitment to the pitch with careful scheduling and better technology.
RE the moveable grass field like in Arizona -- sure it would work here, but for a different purpose! Not necessarily to grow, since BMO Field will still be an open-air venue with natural light for the grass. Grass, especially with subfloor heating like BMO, grows fine outdoors in Toronto, for the times it's needed for footy. (Not sure why you said that grass needs to grow indoors in this area? It's actually quite hard to grow grass indoors, and will be a big issue for the Rogers Centre. One reason they will really need to baby it and protect it there; plus baseball puts much less wear on the grass than footy or especially CFL. But you can bet if they install grass in the Rogers Centre, they will leave the roof open as much as possible to get a bit of natural light & ventilation.)
That being said: many grass fields with significant roof structures do also have problems growing grass reliably, since a roof can put too much shade on the grass for it to grow well everywhere. Some venues have special artificial lighting systems ("grow lights") for the pitch as a result, to help the grass grow despite roof shading and poor weather. I'm sure Rogers Centre with grass will need lots of that; and it could help for BMO as well, especially with a new roof over the stands & as the MLS season has gotten longer.
However, the main reason to move the BMO grass pitch outside here would be to protect it during gridiron games & other events (and only during such events). Padding & plastic turf would be installed on the concrete subfloor for CFL when the grass is out. See the Veltins Arena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veltins-Arena), which actually has a full roof:
The biggest problems for that in Toronto are massive extra costs for the moveable pitch; plus that non-footy events (CFL; Winter Classic; CNE) want the space outside for parking, or directly for the events, so it would be hard to put the grass pitch there.The Veltins-Arena features a slide out pitch. Supported by 11,400 t substructure, the playing field can be moved in and out of the stadium within 4 hours. This has several advantages:
- The grass playing surface can grow under normal outside conditions without suffering from a lack of circulation and light as in other arenas.
- The football pitch is not damaged during indoor events such as concerts. [** That's what matters most for BMO Field.]
- The floor of the multi-functional hall can be converted and retro-fitted within a short amount of time.
- The outside area that is not occupied by the field can be used as parking facilities for buses during football matches.
How about this idea, which we were just discussing with some structural engineers & engineering lab techies. They thought this would be possible. CFL will need retractable stands anyway due to the larger field size. That means for CFL events, the lowest available seating rows could start significantly higher than for footy. Instead of putting plastic turf directly on top of grass as Waggy suggested (bad for the grass; too soft for the plastic turf & will slide around) why not have a removable structure that spans the grass field, raising the floor, and provides a sturdy surface for plastic turf to be rolled out & anchored? The structure could be additionally supported by pins and subsurface sleeves within the grass surface, that won't be noticeable & can be filled with small grass plugs during footy games. The structure could even have grow lights on the bottom in case it needs to stay out for a few days for special occasions.
Wait a sec, I'm gonna patent that...Won't be cheap either; but cheaper & easier than a moveable grass pitch. Basically, it's much easier to have removeable plastic turf, than removeable real grass; and CFL won't have as many games as there are footy games overall.
That's a great idea! I said grass would need to be grown indoors because without the help of heat/water/protection from frost/snow grass wouldn't grow in Toronto in Feb/March/April/Oct/Nov/Dec. It's just too cold and there's too much snow and frost. But that's a WAY better idea. Even if supports are needed at least damage to the actual pitch would be minimal. I'm sure an engineer could figure out how to distribute the weight without damaging the grass below.RE the moveable grass field like in Arizona -- sure it would work here, but for a different purpose! Not necessarily to grow, since BMO Field will still be an open-air venue with natural light for the grass. Grass, especially with subfloor heating like BMO, grows fine outdoors in Toronto, for the times it's needed for footy. (Not sure why you said that grass needs to grow indoors in this area? It's actually quite hard to grow grass indoors, and will be a big issue for the Rogers Centre. One reason they will really need to baby it and protect it there; plus baseball puts much less wear on the grass than footy or especially CFL. But you can bet if they install grass in the Rogers Centre, they will leave the roof open as much as possible to get a bit of natural light & ventilation.)
That being said: many grass fields with significant roof structures do also have problems growing grass reliably, since a roof can put too much shade on the grass for it to grow well everywhere. Some venues have special artificial lighting systems ("grow lights") for the pitch as a result, to help the grass grow despite roof shading and poor weather. I'm sure Rogers Centre with grass will need lots of that; and it could help for BMO as well, especially with a new roof over the stands & as the MLS season has gotten longer.
However, the main reason to move the BMO grass pitch outside here would be to protect it during gridiron games & other events (and only during such events). Padding & plastic turf would be installed on the concrete subfloor for CFL when the grass is out. See the Veltins Arena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veltins-Arena), which actually has a full roof:
The biggest problems for that in Toronto are massive extra costs for the moveable pitch; plus that non-footy events (CFL; Winter Classic; CNE) want the space outside for parking, or directly for the events, so it would be hard to put the grass pitch there.
How about this idea, which we were just discussing with some structural engineers & engineering lab techies. They thought this would be possible. CFL will need retractable stands anyway due to the larger field size. That means for CFL events, the lowest available seating rows could start significantly higher than for footy. Instead of putting plastic turf directly on top of grass as Waggy suggested (bad for the grass; too soft for the plastic turf & will slide around) why not have a removable structure that spans the grass field, raising the floor, and provides a sturdy surface for plastic turf to be rolled out & anchored? The structure could be additionally supported by pins and subsurface sleeves within the grass surface, that won't be noticeable & can be filled with small grass plugs during footy games. The structure could even have grow lights on the bottom in case it needs to stay out for a few days for special occasions.
Wait a sec, I'm gonna patent that...
To me, it just shows that you can actually physically move a grass pitch. I'm sure there are other measures that would have to be taken as well to make it work here, but just trying to hold out hope something like that could be used if we are forced into the same venue.
I would still prefer something entirely separate. The playing dimensions of a CFL field just makes it impractical to share with other sports.
The biggest issues with the indoor areas and growing grass is about air circulation and sunlight. I took a tour of Ajax's stadium and they said it's a pretty common problem in all these new relatively closed off facilities. They drag in what look like huge plant lights and fans when the team isn't playing to make sure the surface stays in good shape.
I had to dig, but I knew I'd heard about this before. It was during the World Cup in Korea Japan - they had a stadium with a retractable pitch. The initial purpose was to get the entire pitch into the sun (grass in large stadiums often suffers due to the stadium blocking sunlight.
It is now used for football and baseball - they swap the pitches. Grass for football, turf for baseball.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapporo_Dome
New to me - Schalke and Vitesse also use the same technology.
Sorry Auzzy, but the idea of placing a structure above a stationary grass pitch is not new. London's Wembley Stadium was designed to incorporate such a system. Beneath the grass pitch are a series of metal footings. The plan calls for grass and soil above them to be extracted and metal pilings and support beams installed to form a support system that a steel floor sits on top of. The designed set it high enough that lighting fixtures and fans could be rigged to keep the grass lit and healthy while an event took place topside.
After the event, the floor would be removed, stored and new grass and soil plugs placed back in over the footings. In a small footprint of land, this makes abundant sense, as the floor structure can be dismantled and placed in a relatively compact storage area. The effect on Wembley was to reduce capacity from 90k to about 75k as the raised floor covered about 10 rows of seats. The idea was to make this incredibly over-budget palace viable for other sports, including possibly being the main stadium for the 2012 Olympics.
Sadly for Britain, a series of egos demanded a site that held 80k and the system for Wembley was never implemented. Another incredibly foolish amount of money was then spent to build a new Olympic stadium that, post-Olympics, continues to be a drain on the public purse.
Given the implied costs that would arise to put in the sort of mechanized, movable stands that Leiweke has hinted at, it wouldn't shock me to learn that MLSE would want to stage an annual outdoor Leafs game, regardless of what the NHL does at New Year. Add in the CFL, concerts and it would be a busy little joint, then.
The National Soccer Stadium. Sigh. The seats are bound to be green. The colour of money.
I'm sure if any club would know how to best make things grow in suboptimal conditions it'd be Ajax. Why they could grow a soccer pitch in a basement....
It does seem that the Argos are on their way in, it bothers me to no end that Canada or Toronto can't support a Professional Soccer Stadium, however it leads to 2 new questions...
Will MLSE change the colours of TFC to some sort of Blue to match the Leafs and Argos (so the seats can match all three teams) and... will MLSE purchase new turf for the season that we are forced to watch our beloved team play at the Skydome?
Toronto can support a professional soccer stadium.. The fact is, is that they are not allowed to..
Everyone eelse want a piece of soccer to the detriment of the game.
Agreed. It's football (as in gridiron) can't be supported in Toronto. Proof is Argos despite being a winning team who have recently won Grey Cup. CFL TV ratings are great, but like MLS, CFL gets most of their revenue from gates not TV money. Plus, CFL players are excepted to get a raise next year so new TV contract money isn't going to help Argos to make a profit or make attract to sell to investors.
Problem with Toronto is that most of North America cities can't support professional soccer club in the past which left us without a league to play in. But hopefully, MLS can strive for very long time though.
Technically speaking, MLSE don't own stadium and they don't have to do anything to improve BMO field. So if MLSE don't want Argos coming to BMO field, but City of Toronto does, then tell City to pay for renovation. Let's see if City really wants to save Argos or not.
I love it how CFL fans like to point out how BMO field is taxpayer funded (mostly), but not realize that it was build for FIFA Under 20 world cup and Canadian national soccer teams. Argos at the time single handedly almost killed Toronto's chance of hosting FIFA Under 20 world cup when they ditch CSA and government in the last minute to accept Rogers Centre deal. Now they're whining about not having a home. Karma is a bitch,eh?!
Only party we should direct our concerns here is MLSE because end of the day, City of Toronto and Argos aren't going to pay for renovation. Tim Leiweke said in 6 months he will ask TFC fanbase after he done his study with team of engineers on BMO field renovation plans.
Last edited by TFC07; 01-17-2014 at 10:27 PM.
I'm wonder what would happen if TL said no to the Argo's idea outright, what sort of backlash could he get from the city. I really wonder how this conversation would be going if MLSE did own the stadium.
There will be no backlash since City hasn't shown any interest of saving Argos or finding them a home.
The real issue here is that MLSE is trying to get all 3 level of governments to fund BMO field and in return, they will accept Argos (so government can make more money in their investment by having another tenant) moving in as long it doesn't affect soccer experience.
Of course, real agenda here is hosting winter classic games for Maple Leafs for once a year.
Yeah your right, I totally forgot about the winter classic angle.
I definitely wouldn't be surprised, considering they were talking about rebranding the raptors, it makes sense....those are the only franchises that you can rebrand because of a lack of history. Argos no, Blue Jays no, Leafs.....
Come on you blues?
There is some really big posts in here and I will read them when I am sober....holy shit. Just sayin'...
The city and province have tried to help the Argos a BUNCH of times. The Argos keep turning them down/fucking it up. The intent from city hall and the province is there though. They could've come into BMO when it was being built if they invested like 10 million bucks only, said no. Could've had the stadium at Varsity for 25-30 million only, said no. Got offered a similar deal at York U, said no. The Argos business side is arguably among the worst in the continent.
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