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    Default Leiweke and Tobin talk to Sportsnet on BMO expansion, Argos at BMO

    Hey guys,

    I spoke to Phil Tobin and Tim Leiweke this week about the whole BMO Field/expansion/Argos moving in issue.

    I know this is an issue that's important to you, so I thought you'd be interested in reading my story for sportsnet.ca:

    Leiweke soothes Toronto FC fan concerns over BMO Field


    Cheers,
    John Molinaro
    Last edited by johnmolinaro; 01-09-2014 at 06:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnmolinaro View Post
    Hey guys,

    I spoke to Phil Tobin and Tim Leiweke this week about the whole BMO Field/expansion/Argos moving in issue.

    I know this is an issue that's important to you, so I thought you'd be interested in reading my story for sportsnet.ca:

    Leiweke soothes Toronto fan worries over BMO expansion

    Cheers,
    John Molinaro
    links to an older Arash story
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    links to an older Arash story
    I'm an idiot! Link is fixed now.

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    I don't understand the issue with the grass.
    Arsenal, and Tottenham play on a hybrid pitch, Wembley is a hybrid pitch,
    The Green bay packers use a field by the same company.
    I think we're mistaking turf for the old junk that was in BMO originally, or that is in the Dome now.
    If its good enough for Arsenal shouldn't it be fine for TFC?

    The sightlines is a major concern. As has been mentioned, you have to figure in the buffer zone, also the first row of seats in football stadiums begins higher up from the field, hence the Argos having to tarp over the first 10 rows or so. Unless TFC goes with a retractable north east and west stand, seats will be further away. Of course, they'll keep the fieldside tables and claim there is no difference.

    My other concern is when will this construction take place? MLS begins in March and ends in October. I don't think 3 months is enough time for the kinda of renovation they are talking about.
    Whats the solution? A season in the Dome? A season in Hamilton?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glaze View Post
    I don't understand the issue with the grass.
    Arsenal, and Tottenham play on a hybrid pitch, Wembley is a hybrid pitch,
    The Green bay packers use a field by the same company.
    I think we're mistaking turf for the old junk that was in BMO originally, or that is in the Dome now.
    If its good enough for Arsenal shouldn't it be fine for TFC?

    The sightlines is a major concern. As has been mentioned, you have to figure in the buffer zone, also the first row of seats in football stadiums begins higher up from the field, hence the Argos having to tarp over the first 10 rows or so. Unless TFC goes with a retractable north east and west stand, seats will be further away. Of course, they'll keep the fieldside tables and claim there is no difference.

    My other concern is when will this construction take place? MLS begins in March and ends in October. I don't think 3 months is enough time for the kinda of renovation they are talking about.
    Whats the solution? A season in the Dome? A season in Hamilton?
    My guess is its completed in phases over a couple years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glaze View Post
    I don't understand the issue with the grass.
    Arsenal, and Tottenham play on a hybrid pitch, Wembley is a hybrid pitch,
    The Green bay packers use a field by the same company.
    I think we're mistaking turf for the old junk that was in BMO originally, or that is in the Dome now.
    If its good enough for Arsenal shouldn't it be fine for TFC?

    The sightlines is a major concern. As has been mentioned, you have to figure in the buffer zone, also the first row of seats in football stadiums begins higher up from the field, hence the Argos having to tarp over the first 10 rows or so. Unless TFC goes with a retractable north east and west stand, seats will be further away. Of course, they'll keep the fieldside tables and claim there is no difference.

    My other concern is when will this construction take place? MLS begins in March and ends in October. I don't think 3 months is enough time for the kinda of renovation they are talking about.
    Whats the solution? A season in the Dome? A season in Hamilton?
    Arsenal play on real grass, that is artificially reinforced. So hybrid, yes, but still essentially like playing on real grass.

    Perhaps if the CFL ever came to BMO, that would be the solution to having a pitch that can withstand being torn up by giant football players 9-10 times a year. Of course, I've also read that Arsenal's type of pitch is pretty goddamned expensive.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Arsenal play on real grass, that is artificially reinforced. So hybrid, yes, but still essentially like playing on real grass.

    Perhaps if the CFL ever came to BMO, that would be the solution to having a pitch that can withstand being torn up by giant football players 9-10 times a year. Of course, I've also read that Arsenal's type of pitch is pretty goddamned expensive.

    - Scott
    Swansea also have this sort of pitch; apparently drains much better than your typical grass pitch.

    I have my reservations on whether it would hold up against the strains of regular CFL games, never mind ground-sharing with us.

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    Put the Argos in an expanded and renovated Lamport. Leave BMO for real football.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliquE View Post
    Swansea also have this sort of pitch; apparently drains much better than your typical grass pitch.
    Tons of teams do. Man Utd, Man City, Real Madrid, Liverpool, Inter & Milan. It was used in the 2010 World Cup.

    I have my reservations on whether it would hold up against the strains of regular CFL games, never mind ground-sharing with us.
    Well, it's used by the Packers, the Eagles and the Broncos, so if anyone is really interested in seeing how it stands up to American football that would be a good place to look. With a ground share though, hard to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliquE View Post
    Swansea also have this sort of pitch; apparently drains much better than your typical grass pitch.

    I have my reservations on whether it would hold up against the strains of regular CFL games, never mind ground-sharing with us.

    Swansea also share their ground with the Ospreys rugby team. Between their league and Heineken Cup matches, the Ospreys play around 20 home games a year during the same time Swansea play. I've never noticed Swansea having issues with the quality of their pitch.

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    I will be done with Toronto fc big name player will not make me stay if argo come to bmo ...

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    Thanks for this, John.

    I wish, though, that someone might ask him directly if he's aware of a few specific examples of shared facilities, within MLS (Houston, etc.), and the horror stories that come with it (shredded pitch and what not, despite their best efforts and the climate being on their side). Further, that, despite it being POSSIBLE to wash off lines, it would a) still be visible, if faintly and b) not be good for the grass to undergo such a process, with regularity. Lastly, that any such modifications, especially if funded publicly, would, surely, lend a bit more leverage to those who want to force The Argos into BMO.

    For me, these, and other follow-ups, similar, are far more important than the overall, generic topics of whether or not they will keep grass and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliquE View Post
    Thanks for this, John.

    I wish, though, that someone might ask him directly if he's aware of a few specific examples of shared facilities, within MLS (Houston, etc.), and the horror stories that come with it (shredded pitch and what not, despite their best efforts and the climate being on their side). Further, that, despite it being POSSIBLE to wash off lines, it would a) still be visible, if faintly and b) not be good for the grass to undergo such a process, with regularity. Lastly, that any such modifications, especially if funded publicly, would, surely, lend a bit more leverage to those who want to force The Argos into BMO.

    For me, these, and other follow-ups, similar, are far more important than the overall, generic topics of whether or not they will keep grass and so on.
    He's fully aware of other venues and problems they have with grass supporting soccer and football. But he honestly believes that you can schedule games so that the effect on the condition of the grass will be minimal. He also maintains you can take out the football lines entirely without noticing they were there in the first place. He also said that MLSE would be fitting the majority of the bill. There will be public money involved, but MLSE is footing the cost for the the majority of the renovation.

    John

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    Really hope it doesn't become like Old Trafford. I'm sure many fans have stopped supporting them because of this.



    Bush league.
    Last edited by PopePouri; 01-09-2014 at 06:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PopePouri View Post
    Really hope it doesn't become like Old Trafford. I'm sure many fans have stopped supporting them because of this.



    Bush league.
    I've never heard United supporters even mention the lines on the pitch after a rugby league match. It's a non-issue for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad View Post
    I've never heard United supporters even mention the lines on the pitch after a rugby league match. It's a non-issue for them.
    Heh. I was trying to be sarcastic.

    IMO it's a non-issue as long as the grass stays. I really want BMO to be intimidating so I welcome the expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PopePouri View Post
    Heh. I was trying to be sarcastic.

    IMO it's a non-issue as long as the grass stays. I really want BMO to be intimidating so I welcome the expansion.
    As long as grass stays and the stands remain pitchside, I don't hate it. I'd still prefer TFC in a SSS and the Argos in a CFL SS. 30 000 seems too big for TFC right now and too small for the Argos as well. TFC should be looking at 25000 if they want to expand and the Argos should be looking for 35 000. Also, the scheduling thing would really be a problem should both the Argos and TFC make the playoffs and host a playoff game. They happen around the same time... Unless the plan is for the Argos to play playoff games at the Dome still, like in Montreal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad View Post
    I've never heard United supporters even mention the lines on the pitch after a rugby league match. It's a non-issue for them.
    There is huge difference between rugby lines and CFL lines. I can't wait to see the ball get lost in 20 foot RONA logo for the first time.

    Oh wait... I won't be watching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad View Post
    I've never heard United supporters even mention the lines on the pitch after a rugby league match. It's a non-issue for them.
    This was the Rugby League World Cup. Hardly a fair comparison.
    To John M: excellent article.
    To everyone else: of course we TFC supporters support the CFL and the Argos. We are Canadians. But this stadium was created for soccer, it is the National Soccer Stadium. It was needed because we did not have an adequate soccer specific venue for our national teams or for the U20 world cup. On the other hand, the Argos had $650 million of public funds build them a stadium. My conclusion: if the Argos want to be tenants in a soccer staium, it needs to be clear that that is the deal and soccer has to be protected at all costs. If any more public money goes into BMO it should be on condition that the name reverts to its official name "The NationalSoccerStadium"; that sight lines, grass, etc are not affected, and that the Argos play at the SkyDome once the weather is more risky for grass (after October 1?).
    Personally, I would rather we build a football specific artificial turf stadium (see, Kansas City) but if not conditions like the ones I am suggesting need to be achieved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad View Post
    I've never heard United supporters even mention the lines on the pitch after a rugby league match. It's a non-issue for them.
    Relatively few lines compared to CFL. No hash marks, no lines every 5 yards, no massive numbers, no massive logo's for advertising ... removing all the CFL stuff could be extremely difficult.

    Compare that video to this jpeg of Skydome. They would have to rule out any on field advertising IMO. Look at those damned things. It's a lot more than just lines!


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    Heard promises before of completely eliminating football lines and Ive never seen it come true yet. After a year + hiatus I'm just starting to have an interest in this team again now that they've cleaned house of the office douchebags. If they get rid of or mark up the grass pitch Im gone forever and never looking back regardless if they even go so far as to bring in Klopp to coach Ronaldo, Rooney and Lewandowski.
    Last edited by Stryker; 01-09-2014 at 07:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stryker View Post
    Heard promises before of completely eliminating football lines and Ive never seen it come true yet. After a year + hiatus I'm just starting to have an interest in this team again now that they've cleaned house of the office douchebags. If they get rid of or mark up the grass pitch U m gone forever and
    They're not getting rid of grass. Tim made that perfectly clear today with me. And he said you can remove the lines for TFC and that you'd never know they were there in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnmolinaro View Post
    They're not getting rid of grass. Tim made that perfectly clear today with me. And he said you can remove the lines for TFC and that you'd never know they were there in the first place.
    That's good that the grass is definitely staying - less so if it's staying, but turns into muddy, permanently scarred garbage after a few weeks.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Glad to see the RPB President get to air his concerns in a mainstream sports article with TL, but his responses make it sound like his full intention is to eventually have the Argos playing at BMO. His only response to the contrary, was to say that there's no secret deal already in place - everything else was just promises and assurances that the soccer experience wouldn't be impacted if it happened.

    Even giving him the benefit of the doubt that he really believes that - is a week long enough for a grass pitch to fully recover from a CFL game? What about the first time it's rainy or snowy - how do you prevent the grass from turning to mud? What is this alleged technology, that apparently lets CFL lines be removed from the grass completely, and repeatedly?

    Unlike some, I'm not opposed in principle to the idea of sharing a stadium with the CFL - taxpayers matter, stadiums aren't cheap to build (and the city owns our stadium) - but I don't presently see how they can do it without significant impacts to soccer, and I don't like feeling like I'm having smoke blown in my face about how everything would be completely fine. Are there any documented cases of both being accommodated with no problems?

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Glad to see the RPB President get to air his concerns in a mainstream sports article with TL, but his responses make it sound like his full intention is to eventually have the Argos playing at BMO. His only response to the contrary, was to say that there's no secret deal already in place - everything else was just promises and assurances that the soccer experience wouldn't be impacted if it happened.

    Even giving him the benefit of the doubt that he really believes that - is a week long enough for a grass pitch to fully recover from a CFL game? What about the first time it's rainy or snowy - how do you prevent the grass from turning to mud? What is this alleged technology, that apparently lets CFL lines be removed from the grass completely, and repeatedly?

    Unlike some, I'm not opposed in principle to the idea of sharing a stadium with the CFL - taxpayers matter, stadiums aren't cheap to build (and the city owns our stadium) - but I don't presently see how they can do it without significant impacts to soccer, and I don't like feeling like I'm having smoke blown in my face about how everything would be completely fine. Are there any documented cases of both being accommodated with no problems?

    - Scott
    I thought it was important to talk to Phil and give him a forum to voice his concerns, because I know this is an important issue not only for RPB, but for the fan-base in general.

    As for the future of BMO Field, Tim did go to great lengths to say fans will be consulted before any final decision is made - which is at least six months away. So you'll have plenty of time to voice your views and concerns before anything is done.

    He's now on record as saying that and that the grass will remain. So it's hard for him to backtrack on those two promises now.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnmolinaro View Post
    He's fully aware of other venues and problems they have with grass supporting soccer and football. But he honestly believes that you can schedule games so that the effect on the condition of the grass will be minimal. He also maintains you can take out the football lines entirely without noticing they were there in the first place. He also said that MLSE would be fitting the majority of the bill. There will be public money involved, but MLSE is footing the cost for the the majority of the renovation.

    John
    Thanks for the clarification, John.

    Still.. minimal damage to the pitch would be noticeable and certainly worse than "how it is, today," as he is often quoted; when he says they would only go through with these modifications if it improves the football (soccer) experience, it rather sounds like he means one element improving, to the detriment of another, when you examine it. Again, Houston, for example, doesn't have the same climate issues to cope with (colder temperatures making it more difficult for the pitch to recover); I just can't see how that doesn't, already, make this idea a no-go, if, indeed, he's/they're committed to grass -- what is, above all else, of the utmost importance.

    I wonder if he's been specifically told that, despite the lines appearing to be washed away, from close up, you're still able to tell they were once there, from the subtle difference between the shades of green, when observed from afar (stands; TV). I also wonder if he's aware that the removal process isn't particularly good for the grass, either.

    I still feel that, even without any public money (of which there will be some), it still positions The Argos well, to make a push for BMO tenancy, especially following a Grey Cup hosted there. Do you know if he has specifically been asked about that? If yes, his response to such a possibility would certainly pique my interest.

    Again, it just seems like his responses are so generic, with, for me, what appear to be huge holes in the logistics of it all. I really do appreciate that you are making a little noise about this topic, though -- brilliant.
    Last edited by JuliquE; 01-09-2014 at 07:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliquE View Post
    Thanks for the clarification, John.

    Still.. minimal damage to the pitch would be noticeable and certainly worse than "how it is, today," as he is often quoted; when he says they would only go through with these modifications if it improves the football (soccer) experience, it rather sounds like he means one element improving, to the detriment of another, when you examine it. Again, Houston, for example, doesn't have the same climate issues to cope with (colder temperatures making it more difficult for the pitch to recover); I just can't see how that doesn't, already, make this idea a no-go, if, indeed, he's/they're committed to grass -- what is, above all else, of the utmost importance.

    I wonder if he's been specifically told that, despite the lines appearing to be washed away, from close up, you're still able to tell they were once there, from the subtle difference between the shades of green. I also wonder if he's aware that the removal process isn't particularly good for the grass, either.

    I still feel that, even without any public money (of which there will be some), it still positions The Argos well, to make a push for BMO tenancy, especially following a Grey Cup hosted there. Do you know if he has specifically been asked that? If yes, his response to such a possibility would certainly pique my interest.

    Again, it just seems like his responses are so generic, with, for me, what appear to be huge holes in the logistics of it all. I really do appreciate that you are making a little noise about this topic, though -- brilliant.
    Like Tim Told me, fans will be consulted before any final decision is made regarding expansion and modifications to BMO Field. So if you have concerns, be sure to raise them.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnmolinaro View Post
    Like Tim Told me, fans will be consulted before any final decision is made regarding expansion and modifications to BMO Field. So if you have concerns, be sure to raise them.

    John
    Getting the vibe like I might be beating a dead horse, here.. so, I'll lay off and extend my apologies; it must be, at times, frustrating to act as a messenger, taking some of the heat.

    Grateful for your efforts, all the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Glad to see the RPB President get to air his concerns in a mainstream sports article with TL, but his responses make it sound like his full intention is to eventually have the Argos playing at BMO. His only response to the contrary, was to say that there's no secret deal already in place - everything else was just promises and assurances that the soccer experience wouldn't be impacted if it happened.

    Even giving him the benefit of the doubt that he really believes that - is a week long enough for a grass pitch to fully recover from a CFL game? What about the first time it's rainy or snowy - how do you prevent the grass from turning to mud? What is this alleged technology, that apparently lets CFL lines be removed from the grass completely, and repeatedly?

    Unlike some, I'm not opposed in principle to the idea of sharing a stadium with the CFL - taxpayers matter, stadiums aren't cheap to build (and the city owns our stadium) - but I don't presently see how they can do it without significant impacts to soccer, and I don't like feeling like I'm having smoke blown in my face about how everything would be completely fine. Are there any documented cases of both being accommodated with no problems?

    - Scott
    I have to agree with you here. I do think it's fully intended to happen unless they just can't do it from a architectural level.

    I'm not entirely bothered by it, SHOULD, things as stated be true. Grass staying, no lines (Rugby is not a fair comparison, the CFL has more lines, all kinds of fucking Tim Hortons ads, logos, yard numbers, etc) and maintaining intimacy. Those are musts.

    I would disagree with other comments that 30K is too much for TFC. IF this club maintains a level of quality in talent that they have just acquired, actually wins some fucking titles, 30K will be easy on the regular. I do wonder where these seats will be, all on the East side in a 2nd deck? Will the south grow at all? TFC, even still, has a much higher demand for the South than what's available. A second smaller deck back there would be fantastic for support, perhaps give more options for hanging banners and doing TIFO's. Look at relocation every year, all the fuds like me ask around to the first ones there..."are there any yellows?" and the answer is almost always "nope"....and we don't bother going.


    As for the CFL, I have to admit I'm a lifelong CFL fan (of Hamilton, fuck the Argos, the cunts) but still, it's incredibly vital to the health of the league to have a team in Toronto. It hurts the CFL badly that the Argos are the worst supported team in the league. The issue has always been the Skydome. Getting them outside is going to do wonders for their support and the finances of the league. I just don't want it to impact TFC at all.

    Side question: Are the Argos, double blue, really going to play in a stadium littered in the color RED? I have to wonder about that.

    Side point: Maybe we'll get a few more pissers and bank machines eh? Wouldn't that be something to not have to miss half the game cause you crushed a few too many.

    Side BJ: We love all that you do John, keep it up breh.
    Last edited by ryan; 01-09-2014 at 08:30 PM.

  30. #30
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    Here is someone else who appreciates all of the hard work done by yourself and others who try sometimes without success to get real answers to all of the issues.
    My main concern at the moment is /how do we keep LABA.
    I do not know how to post a thread but if someone on this site would have a vote type thread posted /asking to make sure we do not give him away.
    Just maybe management might listen.
    Thanks in anticipation.

 

 

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