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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfcocd View Post
    4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


    roster.

    -----------------Bendik-----------------

    Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

    Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

    -----------------Defoe----------------

    ----------------Gilberto----------------


    Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka

    this as a starting point seems promising if bez able to successfully find 2 more midfielders and a cb with mls experience or equivalent leading into training camp
    I would prefer the diamond, but your lineup and formation is most likely what we will see on opening day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfcocd View Post
    4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


    roster.

    -----------------Bendik-----------------

    Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

    Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

    -----------------Defoe----------------

    ----------------Gilberto----------------


    Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka

    this as a starting point seems promising if bez able to successfully find 2 more midfielders and a cb with mls experience or equivalent leading into training camp
    I like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PopePouri View Post
    I'd say United has played 4-4-1-1 exclusively with Rooney off the striker. City has mostly used a 4-4-2 this season with Aguero and Negredo as a strike partnership. Even with Aguero out, they partnered Negredo and Dzeko in the last game.

    Just looking around at the net for the resurgence of 4-4-2, came across this decent article. Nelsen seems to have played a similar style with 2 DMs and the wide mids tucking in.
    http://thinkfootball.co.uk/archives/12364
    It's an interesting article but IMO it doesn't describe the way we play. The first "modern" formation shows a LAM and RAM, as far as TFC goes those players are true wingers. Arguably, the formation is similar to what they describe Athletico's, but any comparisons beyond that really fall apart because we don't attempt to combine play the way they do.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfcocd View Post
    4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


    roster.

    -----------------Bendik-----------------

    Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

    Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

    -----------------Defoe----------------

    ----------------Gilberto----------------


    Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka
    At this

    -our attacking play is looks to be league leading...super subs of dero & dike.
    -osorio getting plenty of minutes alongside laba, defoe, gilberto should dramatically speed his development. Could also amplify his flaws
    -backline needs to work, but great to see the core stays in place.

    still need to add a few more piece, but great lineup as of Jan 2

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    It's an interesting article but IMO it doesn't describe the way we play. The first "modern" formation shows a LAM and RAM, as far as TFC goes those players are true wingers. Arguably, the formation is similar to what they describe Athletico's, but any comparisons beyond that really fall apart because we don't attempt to combine play the way they do.
    Not from what I saw. Even from interviews, Convey was requested to float in behind the forwards or switch flanks and cut in on his left. Rey had a similar role.

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/nelse...rough-for-tfc/

    Convey has been turning heads lately with TFC, given licence to switch from one flank to another and float in behind the team’s forwards in a supporting role. Nelsen has been impressed with Convey’s ability to cut into the middle from the right off his left foot and deliver a dangerous cross from the flanks.
    "There are actual reasons why we give (Convey) the okay to go underneath the striker and switch over," Nelsen explained. "It’s the freedom to use (his) football brain to realize the times when to do it and judge it (himself)."
    It seems to be working. Convey has demonstrated sound judgment and set up both goals in TFC’s win over Columbus.
    "It makes it easier when you have a bit more freedom. I try to play within the framework of how our team works and try to get on the ball more to help the team win," Convey said.

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    I don't see Oso starting over DeRo.
    I would expect Oso to make frequent appearances at 65+ or start when the squad is depleted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfcocd View Post
    4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


    roster.

    -----------------Bendik-----------------

    Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

    Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

    -----------------Defoe----------------

    ----------------Gilberto----------------


    Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka

    this as a starting point seems promising if bez able to successfully find 2 more midfielders and a cb with mls experience or equivalent leading into training camp
    This is an intriguing formation, might be the approach we need. My only concern is having the right kind of depth to fill the Defoe role if he gets injured. DeRo is fine in terms of late game sub but not sure he still has the horses to step in as a starter there if it becomes necessary. Or would Dike be the all purpose FW replacement for either Defoe or Gilberto?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't see Oso starting over DeRo.
    I would expect Oso to make frequent appearances at 65+ or start when the squad is depleted.
    I see DeRo as firmly behind Osorio in the depth chart to start the season. That could change as the season goes on if DeRo brings the goods, but I don't see him usurping Osorio to start the year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    I see DeRo as firmly behind Osorio in the depth chart to start the season. That could change as the season goes on if DeRo brings the goods, but I don't see him usurping Osorio to start the year.
    Maybe you're right. I have no problem with either one of them starting over the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    There's not way we are bringing in two DP strikers to play a lone striker formation.

    Also Nelsen will never use a 4-4-2 diamond. It concedes the middle of the pitch. He's a guy that doesn't really like adventurous football, and the diamond is pretty much a recklessly attacking formation. Also we still don't have a true AM for it.

    We'll likely play a variant of 4-4-2, maybe the odd switch into 4-3-3.

    Again, ussing numbers alond does not tell you the full story, the diamond, or 4-1-2-1-2 does not have to be reclesley attacking. If played like 4-3-1-2, with the 3 being more or less three MIDS with great defensive responsabilities makes it a reltativelly defensive formation. Milan developed the diamond, and with the 4-3-2-1 it is the Milan default formation if you will, and depending what assignemnt you give the 3 mids it can be more or less offensive/defensive, but in most cases it is a good counterattacking formation, but the wide play comes from the fullbacks, so they need to be up to the task.

  11. #41
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    I'm actually a little surprised that it was jloome that started this thread, because he's usually pretty good at spotting this stuff, but maybe he didn't catch enough games being out west?

    I watch most of the games on TV, being ~an hour drive away from BMO with two little kids doesn't map to getting out to a lot of games. Last year, after about the halfway point (when Rey/Convey/Osorio were starting on the wing), Nelsen lined up as 4-4-2 (sometimes 4-4-1-1) on paper, and defensively. But offense was a completely different story. Most of the time the wide midefielders tucked in, and the fullbacks were expected to be the ones to provide the actual width. Once it was Oso starting in the middle, he also moved up into the hole (with the deeper striker moving up to join the top striker) and the formation looked a lot more like a 4-1-3-2 then a 4-4-2. I suspect this will stay the same this year, if only because Nelsen likes his fullbacks to get forward and provide width, and, defensively speaking, our fullbacks aren't good enough to go up against the leagues best wingers 1 on 1 all game without support.

    So, I see something like this:

    Without the ball:

    4-4-2

    -----------------------------Bendik-----------------------------------
    Bloom------Caldwell----------Henry-----------------Morrow
    Rey------------Laba------------Osorio----------------Jackson
    -------------------Defoe--------Gilberto---------------------------

    With the ball:

    4-1-3-2

    -----------------------------Bendik-----------------------------------
    Bloom------Caldwell----------Henry-----------------Morrow
    ----------------------------Laba---------------------------------------
    Rey----------------------Osorio------------------------Jackson
    -------------------Defoe--------Gilberto---------------------------

    We actually have some good coverage and depth right now, just need 1 wide midfielder so that you could move Jackson inside for a better defensive presence against top teams, or to protect a lead. Or, if DeRo brings the goods, you could see him starting out wide with Jackson moving centrally for a bigger defensive presence (and to cover for the loafer :P).

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    Something tells me that Nelsen is trying to copy Mourinho's game that won Inter, and Chelsea the champions league. Sustaining constant attacks by playing a very defensive minded game, and catching the other team napping by switching to very high pressure moments. By allowing the opponent to attack you for 20 minutes, it gives you a window of disorganization when the play switches sides.
    You could see flashes of it last season, except there was nobody to score the goals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    Again, ussing numbers alond does not tell you the full story, the diamond, or 4-1-2-1-2 does not have to be reclesley attacking. If played like 4-3-1-2, with the 3 being more or less three MIDS with great defensive responsabilities makes it a reltativelly defensive formation. Milan developed the diamond, and with the 4-3-2-1 it is the Milan default formation if you will, and depending what assignemnt you give the 3 mids it can be more or less offensive/defensive, but in most cases it is a good counterattacking formation, but the wide play comes from the fullbacks, so they need to be up to the task.
    Thanks for that. My experience with it is mostly playing in it as the one holding mid and I absolutely hate it. I run a lot, but I can't do all the covering on my own, and that's what I find with that formation. Also really tends to stretch the play and leave big gaps in the midfield. Obviously in Italy and on a pro level where there is high positional awareness it would be different, and that variant you mentioned would shore the back up much more. Not sure we have that on TFC, or in fact most MLS teams to play it properly. We certainly don't have the kind of marauding full backs for it. I'm surprised RSL has used it so well given the limitations of positional awareness in MLS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Thanks for that. My experience with it is mostly playing in it as the one holding mid and I absolutely hate it. I run a lot, but I can't do all the covering on my own, and that's what I find with that formation. Also really tends to stretch the play and leave big gaps in the midfield. Obviously in Italy and on a pro level where there is high positional awareness it would be different, and that variant you mentioned would shore the back up much more. Not sure we have that on TFC, or in fact most MLS teams to play it properly. We certainly don't have the kind of marauding full backs for it. I'm surprised RSL has used it so well given the limitations of positional awareness in MLS.
    Laba has the engine and the positioning to play lone DM. I'd put him just below Alonso and Beckerman, and those 2 only trumps Laba by experience.

    RSL can play the diamond so well, because their midfielders are capable of holding possession. They don't give away ball easily, which allows their fullbacks to make their runs. On other hand, Seattle plays a diamond, but it's not so effective because their midfield isn't as good possessing the ball. (though I suspect funny bounces on that terrible turf has something to do as well).
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    Will a 4-4-2 formation see us put at least one more ball into the opposition net then we concede into ours?

    Thats all that really matters. . . and I for one am willing to give it a shot!
    NOTICE: Wager with STB: OVER 2 shots on goal in the First half wins a Pint at HT.

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    I say we go with a 4-4-3. See if anyone notices...

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wooster_TFC View Post
    I'm actually a little surprised that it was jloome that started this thread, because he's usually pretty good at spotting this stuff, but maybe he didn't catch enough games being out west?

    I watch most of the games on TV, being ~an hour drive away from BMO with two little kids doesn't map to getting out to a lot of games. Last year, after about the halfway point (when Rey/Convey/Osorio were starting on the wing), Nelsen lined up as 4-4-2 (sometimes 4-4-1-1) on paper, and defensively. But offense was a completely different story. Most of the time the wide midefielders tucked in, and the fullbacks were expected to be the ones to provide the actual width. Once it was Oso starting in the middle, he also moved up into the hole (with the deeper striker moving up to join the top striker) and the formation looked a lot more like a 4-1-3-2 then a 4-4-2. I suspect this will stay the same this year, if only because Nelsen likes his fullbacks to get forward and provide width, and, defensively speaking, our fullbacks aren't good enough to go up against the leagues best wingers 1 on 1 all game without support.

    So, I see something like this:

    Without the ball:

    4-4-2

    -----------------------------Bendik-----------------------------------
    Bloom------Caldwell----------Henry-----------------Morrow
    Rey------------Laba------------Osorio----------------Jackson
    -------------------Defoe--------Gilberto---------------------------

    With the ball:

    4-1-3-2

    -----------------------------Bendik-----------------------------------
    Bloom------Caldwell----------Henry-----------------Morrow
    ----------------------------Laba---------------------------------------
    Rey----------------------Osorio------------------------Jackson
    -------------------Defoe--------Gilberto---------------------------

    We actually have some good coverage and depth right now, just need 1 wide midfielder so that you could move Jackson inside for a better defensive presence against top teams, or to protect a lead. Or, if DeRo brings the goods, you could see him starting out wide with Jackson moving centrally for a bigger defensive presence (and to cover for the loafer :P).
    I get how he used it. But ask yourself whether switching positional responsibilities every time we back track and having to move into a different channel is the most efficient way of achieving this. Or should they just start in a 433 variant to begin with (which is what the 4132 is) and be positionally consistent.

    He also tilted play to one side depending on the strengths of the opposing fullbacks. Again, though, if we're playing a different formation in effect going forward for each opponent based on tactical considerations, we're forcing our players to rely on individually beating their cover man before they can create anything, as opposed to doing so with fluid motion off the ball into space, like Portland or RSL.

    Why defend in a 442 but attack in a 4132? For a league as tactically deficient as MLS, it seems like that's setting players up to blow coverage. It's like his decision to zonally mark on corners. It just doesn't make sense at this level of football to me and it always ends up with someone blowing coverage because they're not sure who they should track.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    Again, ussing numbers alond does not tell you the full story, the diamond, or 4-1-2-1-2 does not have to be reclesley attacking. If played like 4-3-1-2, with the 3 being more or less three MIDS with great defensive responsabilities makes it a reltativelly defensive formation. Milan developed the diamond, and with the 4-3-2-1 it is the Milan default formation if you will, and depending what assignemnt you give the 3 mids it can be more or less offensive/defensive, but in most cases it is a good counterattacking formation, but the wide play comes from the fullbacks, so they need to be up to the task.
    Thats something you would expect from an experienced team and seasoned manager. Thats not something that can be taught to a team that has only one central midfielder.

    Now, for the shits and giggles. I'm going to say a 3-4-3 similar to Bologna with DiVaio and Milito that would be fantastic, but again thats something you would expect from a group of players that are more seasoned and better football brains.

    3-4-3:


    ----------------------Bendik--------------------
    ---------------------Konopka-------------------
    ------------------------------------------------
    ----------Caldwell-----Henry-----Agboss--------
    ----------Eckersley----Bloom-----Morgan--------
    ------------------------------------------------
    Jackson-------Laba-----------Hall--------Morrow
    Richter-------Osorio----------Bekker-------Elmer
    ------------------------------------------------
    ----------------------Gilberto-------------------
    -----------------------Dike---------------------
    ------------Rey---------||------DeRosario------
    -----------Lambe--------V------Wiedeman------

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    would certainly confuse teams for a bit if we went 3-4-3 lol. might confuse ourselves even more to aha

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdubs View Post
    would certainly confuse teams for a bit if we went 3-4-3 lol. might confuse ourselves even more to aha
    I remember Winter playing with 3-4-3 for a while. it was pretty epic fail
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonO View Post
    I say we go with a 4-4-3. See if anyone notices...
    You could do it if you choose to opt for an extra forward instead of a keeper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    I remember Winter playing with 3-4-3 for a while. it was pretty epic fail
    First game as a 3-4-3 was a shock win against RSL

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    I get how he used it. But ask yourself whether switching positional responsibilities every time we back track and having to move into a different channel is the most efficient way of achieving this. Or should they just start in a 433 variant to begin with (which is what the 4132 is) and be positionally consistent.

    He also tilted play to one side depending on the strengths of the opposing fullbacks. Again, though, if we're playing a different formation in effect going forward for each opponent based on tactical considerations, we're forcing our players to rely on individually beating their cover man before they can create anything, as opposed to doing so with fluid motion off the ball into space, like Portland or RSL.

    Why defend in a 442 but attack in a 4132? For a league as tactically deficient as MLS, it seems like that's setting players up to blow coverage. It's like his decision to zonally mark on corners. It just doesn't make sense at this level of football to me and it always ends up with someone blowing coverage because they're not sure who they should track.
    You could definitely see times where coverage was blown. You could also see times where Laba was forcing opposition players into an area of the field that he was supposed to, just to have another player (usually a fullback or Hall) not pick them up like they were supposed to.

    I think that if you get guys with a decent football sense, rather than the super-athletes that typify MLS teams, then you could do it, but it's not easy. I can see us getting that with Laba, Caldwell, and Rey near the end of last season. I think guys like Henry, Morgan, and Osorio can pick it up (they have a decent amount of smarts when it comes to football, they just need to be taught). For whatever reason Nelsen seems to favour more of a zonal type defense, with people pushing the opposition into certain areas. That said, with the new folks we are picking up, I could see us lining up in any sort of formation, depending on the team we're playing and who's hot and who's not.

    Regardless of what you pick from a formation, you need at least 8 guys defending in MLS. The fullbacks (usually) just aren't good enough to do it otherwise. Haven't seen Portland play a lot, so I can't comment on their play, but both RSL and KC play some variations on 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1, and 4-3-3 (the last 3 are almost the same, but whatever). Regardless of what they are playing though, the wingers are ALWAYS expected to track back and defend. You're asking for trouble if you play a "real" 4-3-3 like Winter did, because the defense simply just ain't good enough .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest Ripoff View Post
    First game as a 3-4-3 was a shock win against RSL
    Yes. But then he kept using it and it got exploited. It also heavily depended on Frings, who was slow as molasses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wooster_TFC View Post
    Yes. But then he kept using it and it got exploited. It also heavily depended on Frings, who was slow as molasses.
    Terry Dunfield and Torsten Frings, perhaps the slowest and most ineffective central midfield combination in the history of MLS. Played out so badly it was laughable.

    I'm not sure who dreamed that one up, but it showed a shocking lack of understanding of how this league works. If you can't cover ground in the middle of the park, you won't be winning anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Terry Dunfield and Torsten Frings, perhaps the slowest and most ineffective central midfield combination in the history of MLS. Played out so badly it was laughable.

    I'm not sure who dreamed that one up, but it showed a shocking lack of understanding of how this league works. If you can't cover ground in the middle of the park, you won't be winning anything.
    Frings didn't play CM in our 3-4-3, he played Sweeper.

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    The only reason Winter went with a 3-4-3 is because the two natural central defenders were constantly being pressured by two attacking players causing turnovers. Frings in the middle was like a rover of sorts and would be able to assist where he felt it was needed. This failed because our wide players did not come back to defend the long diagonal balls over the top (the way you beat a 3 defender system) effectively enough. That and it also left us short in the midfield with essentially only 2 players - one of which was Terry dunfield.

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    An effective 3-4-3 should look like a 5-4-1 when defending and can look like a 3-2-5 when they are putting maximum attacking pressure.

 

 

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