Nelsen's 442: Is is the right fit for our squad?

[jloome]

Here's a question: with the discussion continually coming back to the need for better creativity in the midfield, through both stronger wide players and a creative two-way guy to pair with Laba, would it not make more sense, if the DPs both come through, to play to our lineup's strengths and play in a 433?

If we play with Jackson as a wide midfielder, we still need someone to pair with Laba who can at the least compete with Osorio for time and probably really should be a more experienced, stronger player. If we start Jackson inside, we're gambling Osorio will be effective wide (although it does seem to fit his skill set).

Wouldn't it make more sense to put all three of our decent strikers on the field at the same time and play with a three man mid?

Something like:

--------------Bendik-------------
Morrow--Henry--Caldwell--Morgan
--------Jackson---Laba---------------
-------------Osorio/Rey---------------
-------Defoe--Dike--Gilberto----------

Or if we wanted to play flat,
Jackson--Henry--Caldwell--Morrow
-------Rey--Laba--Osorio--------
-------Defoe--Dike--Gilberto

It just seems there are more natural roles for our best lineup if we have three up top.

[PopePouri]

The effectiveness of our DPs gets lost if you put them on the wing. I think we are more suited for a flat 4-4-2 or a 4-1-3-2 with the players we have. He probably need another box-to-box midfielder mid though.

[jloome]

The effectiveness of our DPs gets lost if you put them on the wing.

Defoe on the wing sounds like a pretty bad idea, and although I haven't seen Gilberto play, having him on the wing sounds no more promising.

On the wing is pretty relative in a flat 433. If you're playing a short, control game then the team moves as a unit and that includes laterally, so when one outside forward is wide, the other is the guy drifting to the centre or far post. It allows the skill players to get behind the backline and still be in position to score, when the ball is coming in from the other side of the pitch. It also allows Dike to play as a proper target forward and hold up the ball, then feed the two DPs cutting inside.

You don't just play them on the wing or wide, obviously.

I'd also suggest that we had very little decent service to ANY of our two forwards last year. Defoe can create his own but Gilberto looks more a poacher (and a lot of Defoe's goals come from close in, too). We didn't exhibit a lot of ability to bring forwards into play last year, but might be able to with a target forward holding up the ball. And Dike is big and strong.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Didn't Tim Vickery say Gilberto played best as a lone striker in a 4-2-3-1?

[OgtheDim]

I think the best fit is a 4-1-3-2. But we don't have the creative midfielder to support this yet.


Putting Dike up front is not going to resolve our creativity issues.

[Richard]

I honestly for once want a team that goes balls to the walls and do something rare such as playing a 3-4-3, im just so bored with the same cookie-cutter formations over and over.

[notthesun]

Defoe on the wing sounds like a pretty bad idea, and although I haven't seen Gilberto play, having him on the wing sounds no more promising.

If you're talking about finding a formation that best fits our strengths... well, our best strength (assuming Defoe arrives) would have to be our strike force, so playing a formation that throws our two best strikers out wide where they've never played before seems the opposite of a natural fit. Dike as a target forward works in a 4-3-3 but it's not worth playing Defoe and Gilberto out of position.

Honestly a 4-4-2 looks pretty good according to our players. Rey should only ever be on the wing and he can swap wings with Jackson, who himself is most used to playing as a wide midfielder. I hope we're still looking for another CM but in the meantime a tandem of Osorio and Laba in CM is decent. Osorio can push a little further forward than Laba, and he's not a slouch on defense like Silva is, which is why Osorio looked better than Silva did at CM rather than CAM. Laba has shown he can carry the majority of the load defensively in CM.

I've read a lot of comments about whether or not Defoe and Gilberto can work well together in a 4-4-2. That's mostly guesswork at this point. We need to see them play together first. Maybe a 4-4-1-1 would work better, and that's what Nelsen used initially at the start of last year.

I don't think Bez is done adding pieces to this team even if Defoe goes through, and I have a feeling he's got something close to a 4-4-2 in mind for that.

[ManUtd4ever]

I think a diamond 4-4-2 is conducive to the collective skillset of our projected roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

------------------Laba------------------

Rey-----------------------------Jackson

-----------------Osorio------------------

---------Defoe----------Gilberto--------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, Wiedeman

[Ultra & Proud]

I think a diamond 4-4-2 is conducive to the collective skillset of our projected roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

------------------Laba------------------

Rey-----------------------------Jackson

-----------------Osorio------------------

---------Defoe----------Gilberto--------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, Wiedeman

Me too. I like this set up actually.

[Doucet3]

Me too. I like this set up actually.

Been preaching this formation (442 diamond) for a while, seems like the strongest without diluting our depth

[tfcocd]

I think a diamond 4-4-2 is conducive to the collective skillset of our projected roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

------------------Laba------------------

Rey-----------------------------Jackson

-----------------Osorio------------------

---------Defoe----------Gilberto--------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, Wiedeman

4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

-----------------Defoe----------------

----------------Gilberto----------------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka

this as a starting point seems promising if bez able to successfully find 2 more midfielders and a cb with mls experience or equivalent leading into training camp

[ManUtd4ever]

4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

-----------------Defoe----------------

----------------Gilberto----------------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka

this as a starting point seems promising if bez able to successfully find 2 more midfielders and a cb with mls experience or equivalent leading into training camp

I would prefer the diamond, but your lineup and formation is most likely what we will see on opening day.

[PopePouri]

4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

-----------------Defoe----------------

----------------Gilberto----------------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka

this as a starting point seems promising if bez able to successfully find 2 more midfielders and a cb with mls experience or equivalent leading into training camp

I like this.

[CountryoverClub]

4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

-----------------Defoe----------------

----------------Gilberto----------------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka

At this

-our attacking play is looks to be league leading...super subs of dero & dike.
-osorio getting plenty of minutes alongside laba, defoe, gilberto should dramatically speed his development. Could also amplify his flaws
-backline needs to work, but great to see the core stays in place.

still need to add a few more piece, but great lineup as of Jan 2

[Detroit_TFC]

4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

-----------------Defoe----------------

----------------Gilberto----------------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka

this as a starting point seems promising if bez able to successfully find 2 more midfielders and a cb with mls experience or equivalent leading into training camp

This is an intriguing formation, might be the approach we need. My only concern is having the right kind of depth to fill the Defoe role if he gets injured. DeRo is fine in terms of late game sub but not sure he still has the horses to step in as a starter there if it becomes necessary. Or would Dike be the all purpose FW replacement for either Defoe or Gilberto?

[0bl1vious]

Personally, I think we are far too thin in the middle and on the wings to be playing 4-3-3. We simply don't have the players with the required skills.

At the moment 4-4-2 diamond or 4-1-3-2 makes more sense. The team in it's current state seems to look stronger on paper using those formations.

Here's a mock-up, I didn't include some players (ie Bekker because he's just not ready yet). I also didn't really want to include De Rosario because I'm hoping he won't be starting on a regular basis.

4-3-3



4-1-3-2

[prizby]

i don't think Nelsen acquires the players he has been acquiring if they don't fit his 'style'; whether these players make/force him to adapt his style to a different formation or such, that is an answer we'll see come pre-season probably

[Abou Sky]

i don't think Nelsen acquires the players he has been acquiring if they don't fit his 'style'; whether these players make/force him to adapt his style to a different formation or such, that is an answer we'll see come pre-season probably

That said, I don't know that he:

1. Has necessarily found his 'style'
2. Even if he did, maybe he hasn't been playing it and has been playing with what he had.

[ag futbol]

As of right now, I think 4-2-3-1 makes the most sense.

The way TFC plays the strikers hardly ever combine on anything and we just signed a guy who has been more successful playing up top by himself and supposedly passing isn't his strong suit. This is what worries me about bringing in Defoe. Doesn't sound like there will be much combination play but how can you possibly avoid playing with two up top? Neither fits a midfield role and you can't drop one to the bench.

[prizby]

As of right now, I think 4-2-3-1 makes the most sense.

The way TFC plays the strikers hardly ever combine on anything and we just signed a guy who has been more successful playing up top by himself and supposedly passing isn't his strong suit. This is what worries me about bringing in Defoe. Doesn't sound like there will be much combination play but how can you possibly avoid playing with two up top? Neither fits a midfield role and you can't drop one to the bench.

it makes the least sense (if Defoe or alike striker comes in); you are not going to sit a DP striker for the sake of a formation

[trane]

4-3-2-1, with what we seem to have now, the 2-1, pretty tight within the wings, to allow for passing between them.

[Canary10]

There's not way we are bringing in two DP strikers to play a lone striker formation.

Also Nelsen will never use a 4-4-2 diamond. It concedes the middle of the pitch. He's a guy that doesn't really like adventurous football, and the diamond is pretty much a recklessly attacking formation. Also we still don't have a true AM for it.

We'll likely play a variant of 4-4-2, maybe the odd switch into 4-3-3.

[trane]

There's not way we are bringing in two DP strikers to play a lone striker formation.

Also Nelsen will never use a 4-4-2 diamond. It concedes the middle of the pitch. He's a guy that doesn't really like adventurous football, and the diamond is pretty much a recklessly attacking formation. Also we still don't have a true AM for it.

We'll likely play a variant of 4-4-2, maybe the odd switch into 4-3-3.

Again, ussing numbers alond does not tell you the full story, the diamond, or 4-1-2-1-2 does not have to be reclesley attacking. If played like 4-3-1-2, with the 3 being more or less three MIDS with great defensive responsabilities makes it a reltativelly defensive formation. Milan developed the diamond, and with the 4-3-2-1 it is the Milan default formation if you will, and depending what assignemnt you give the 3 mids it can be more or less offensive/defensive, but in most cases it is a good counterattacking formation, but the wide play comes from the fullbacks, so they need to be up to the task.

[Wooster_TFC]

I'm actually a little surprised that it was jloome that started this thread, because he's usually pretty good at spotting this stuff, but maybe he didn't catch enough games being out west?

I watch most of the games on TV, being ~an hour drive away from BMO with two little kids doesn't map to getting out to a lot of games. Last year, after about the halfway point (when Rey/Convey/Osorio were starting on the wing), Nelsen lined up as 4-4-2 (sometimes 4-4-1-1) on paper, and defensively. But offense was a completely different story. Most of the time the wide midefielders tucked in, and the fullbacks were expected to be the ones to provide the actual width. Once it was Oso starting in the middle, he also moved up into the hole (with the deeper striker moving up to join the top striker) and the formation looked a lot more like a 4-1-3-2 then a 4-4-2. I suspect this will stay the same this year, if only because Nelsen likes his fullbacks to get forward and provide width, and, defensively speaking, our fullbacks aren't good enough to go up against the leagues best wingers 1 on 1 all game without support.

So, I see something like this:

Without the ball:

4-4-2

-----------------------------Bendik-----------------------------------
Bloom------Caldwell----------Henry-----------------Morrow
Rey------------Laba------------Osorio----------------Jackson
-------------------Defoe--------Gilberto---------------------------

With the ball:

4-1-3-2

-----------------------------Bendik-----------------------------------
Bloom------Caldwell----------Henry-----------------Morrow
----------------------------Laba---------------------------------------
Rey----------------------Osorio------------------------Jackson
-------------------Defoe--------Gilberto---------------------------

We actually have some good coverage and depth right now, just need 1 wide midfielder so that you could move Jackson inside for a better defensive presence against top teams, or to protect a lead. Or, if DeRo brings the goods, you could see him starting out wide with Jackson moving centrally for a bigger defensive presence (and to cover for the loafer :P).

[jloome]

I'm actually a little surprised that it was jloome that started this thread, because he's usually pretty good at spotting this stuff, but maybe he didn't catch enough games being out west?

I watch most of the games on TV, being ~an hour drive away from BMO with two little kids doesn't map to getting out to a lot of games. Last year, after about the halfway point (when Rey/Convey/Osorio were starting on the wing), Nelsen lined up as 4-4-2 (sometimes 4-4-1-1) on paper, and defensively. But offense was a completely different story. Most of the time the wide midefielders tucked in, and the fullbacks were expected to be the ones to provide the actual width. Once it was Oso starting in the middle, he also moved up into the hole (with the deeper striker moving up to join the top striker) and the formation looked a lot more like a 4-1-3-2 then a 4-4-2. I suspect this will stay the same this year, if only because Nelsen likes his fullbacks to get forward and provide width, and, defensively speaking, our fullbacks aren't good enough to go up against the leagues best wingers 1 on 1 all game without support.

So, I see something like this:

Without the ball:

4-4-2

-----------------------------Bendik-----------------------------------
Bloom------Caldwell----------Henry-----------------Morrow
Rey------------Laba------------Osorio----------------Jackson
-------------------Defoe--------Gilberto---------------------------

With the ball:

4-1-3-2

-----------------------------Bendik-----------------------------------
Bloom------Caldwell----------Henry-----------------Morrow
----------------------------Laba---------------------------------------
Rey----------------------Osorio------------------------Jackson
-------------------Defoe--------Gilberto---------------------------

We actually have some good coverage and depth right now, just need 1 wide midfielder so that you could move Jackson inside for a better defensive presence against top teams, or to protect a lead. Or, if DeRo brings the goods, you could see him starting out wide with Jackson moving centrally for a bigger defensive presence (and to cover for the loafer :P).

I get how he used it. But ask yourself whether switching positional responsibilities every time we back track and having to move into a different channel is the most efficient way of achieving this. Or should they just start in a 433 variant to begin with (which is what the 4132 is) and be positionally consistent.

He also tilted play to one side depending on the strengths of the opposing fullbacks. Again, though, if we're playing a different formation in effect going forward for each opponent based on tactical considerations, we're forcing our players to rely on individually beating their cover man before they can create anything, as opposed to doing so with fluid motion off the ball into space, like Portland or RSL.

Why defend in a 442 but attack in a 4132? For a league as tactically deficient as MLS, it seems like that's setting players up to blow coverage. It's like his decision to zonally mark on corners. It just doesn't make sense at this level of football to me and it always ends up with someone blowing coverage because they're not sure who they should track.

[Wooster_TFC]

I get how he used it. But ask yourself whether switching positional responsibilities every time we back track and having to move into a different channel is the most efficient way of achieving this. Or should they just start in a 433 variant to begin with (which is what the 4132 is) and be positionally consistent.

He also tilted play to one side depending on the strengths of the opposing fullbacks. Again, though, if we're playing a different formation in effect going forward for each opponent based on tactical considerations, we're forcing our players to rely on individually beating their cover man before they can create anything, as opposed to doing so with fluid motion off the ball into space, like Portland or RSL.

Why defend in a 442 but attack in a 4132? For a league as tactically deficient as MLS, it seems like that's setting players up to blow coverage. It's like his decision to zonally mark on corners. It just doesn't make sense at this level of football to me and it always ends up with someone blowing coverage because they're not sure who they should track.

You could definitely see times where coverage was blown. You could also see times where Laba was forcing opposition players into an area of the field that he was supposed to, just to have another player (usually a fullback or Hall) not pick them up like they were supposed to.

I think that if you get guys with a decent football sense, rather than the super-athletes that typify MLS teams, then you could do it, but it's not easy. I can see us getting that with Laba, Caldwell, and Rey near the end of last season. I think guys like Henry, Morgan, and Osorio can pick it up (they have a decent amount of smarts when it comes to football, they just need to be taught). For whatever reason Nelsen seems to favour more of a zonal type defense, with people pushing the opposition into certain areas. That said, with the new folks we are picking up, I could see us lining up in any sort of formation, depending on the team we're playing and who's hot and who's not.

Regardless of what you pick from a formation, you need at least 8 guys defending in MLS. The fullbacks (usually) just aren't good enough to do it otherwise. Haven't seen Portland play a lot, so I can't comment on their play, but both RSL and KC play some variations on 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1, and 4-3-3 (the last 3 are almost the same, but whatever). Regardless of what they are playing though, the wingers are ALWAYS expected to track back and defend. You're asking for trouble if you play a "real" 4-3-3 like Winter did, because the defense simply just ain't good enough .

[Canary10]

Again, ussing numbers alond does not tell you the full story, the diamond, or 4-1-2-1-2 does not have to be reclesley attacking. If played like 4-3-1-2, with the 3 being more or less three MIDS with great defensive responsabilities makes it a reltativelly defensive formation. Milan developed the diamond, and with the 4-3-2-1 it is the Milan default formation if you will, and depending what assignemnt you give the 3 mids it can be more or less offensive/defensive, but in most cases it is a good counterattacking formation, but the wide play comes from the fullbacks, so they need to be up to the task.

Thanks for that. My experience with it is mostly playing in it as the one holding mid and I absolutely hate it. I run a lot, but I can't do all the covering on my own, and that's what I find with that formation. Also really tends to stretch the play and leave big gaps in the midfield. Obviously in Italy and on a pro level where there is high positional awareness it would be different, and that variant you mentioned would shore the back up much more. Not sure we have that on TFC, or in fact most MLS teams to play it properly. We certainly don't have the kind of marauding full backs for it. I'm surprised RSL has used it so well given the limitations of positional awareness in MLS.

[Yohan]

Thanks for that. My experience with it is mostly playing in it as the one holding mid and I absolutely hate it. I run a lot, but I can't do all the covering on my own, and that's what I find with that formation. Also really tends to stretch the play and leave big gaps in the midfield. Obviously in Italy and on a pro level where there is high positional awareness it would be different, and that variant you mentioned would shore the back up much more. Not sure we have that on TFC, or in fact most MLS teams to play it properly. We certainly don't have the kind of marauding full backs for it. I'm surprised RSL has used it so well given the limitations of positional awareness in MLS.

Laba has the engine and the positioning to play lone DM. I'd put him just below Alonso and Beckerman, and those 2 only trumps Laba by experience.

RSL can play the diamond so well, because their midfielders are capable of holding possession. They don't give away ball easily, which allows their fullbacks to make their runs. On other hand, Seattle plays a diamond, but it's not so effective because their midfield isn't as good possessing the ball. (though I suspect funny bounces on that terrible turf has something to do as well).

[[NBF]]

Again, ussing numbers alond does not tell you the full story, the diamond, or 4-1-2-1-2 does not have to be reclesley attacking. If played like 4-3-1-2, with the 3 being more or less three MIDS with great defensive responsabilities makes it a reltativelly defensive formation. Milan developed the diamond, and with the 4-3-2-1 it is the Milan default formation if you will, and depending what assignemnt you give the 3 mids it can be more or less offensive/defensive, but in most cases it is a good counterattacking formation, but the wide play comes from the fullbacks, so they need to be up to the task.

Thats something you would expect from an experienced team and seasoned manager. Thats not something that can be taught to a team that has only one central midfielder.

Now, for the shits and giggles. I'm going to say a 3-4-3 similar to Bologna with DiVaio and Milito that would be fantastic, but again thats something you would expect from a group of players that are more seasoned and better football brains.

3-4-3:


----------------------Bendik--------------------
---------------------Konopka-------------------
------------------------------------------------
----------Caldwell-----Henry-----Agboss--------
----------Eckersley----Bloom-----Morgan--------
------------------------------------------------
Jackson-------Laba-----------Hall--------Morrow
Richter-------Osorio----------Bekker-------Elmer
------------------------------------------------
----------------------Gilberto-------------------
-----------------------Dike---------------------
------------Rey---------||------DeRosario------
-----------Lambe--------V------Wiedeman------

[Detroit_TFC]

Have to think any system used will feature both Defoe and Gilberto. The only question is whether Defoe is behind Gilberto or up front along side him.