Nelsen's 442: Is is the right fit for our squad?

[jloome]

Here's a question: with the discussion continually coming back to the need for better creativity in the midfield, through both stronger wide players and a creative two-way guy to pair with Laba, would it not make more sense, if the DPs both come through, to play to our lineup's strengths and play in a 433?

If we play with Jackson as a wide midfielder, we still need someone to pair with Laba who can at the least compete with Osorio for time and probably really should be a more experienced, stronger player. If we start Jackson inside, we're gambling Osorio will be effective wide (although it does seem to fit his skill set).

Wouldn't it make more sense to put all three of our decent strikers on the field at the same time and play with a three man mid?

Something like:

--------------Bendik-------------
Morrow--Henry--Caldwell--Morgan
--------Jackson---Laba---------------
-------------Osorio/Rey---------------
-------Defoe--Dike--Gilberto----------

Or if we wanted to play flat,
Jackson--Henry--Caldwell--Morrow
-------Rey--Laba--Osorio--------
-------Defoe--Dike--Gilberto

It just seems there are more natural roles for our best lineup if we have three up top.

[PopePouri]

The effectiveness of our DPs gets lost if you put them on the wing. I think we are more suited for a flat 4-4-2 or a 4-1-3-2 with the players we have. He probably need another box-to-box midfielder mid though.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Didn't Tim Vickery say Gilberto played best as a lone striker in a 4-2-3-1?

[OgtheDim]

I think the best fit is a 4-1-3-2. But we don't have the creative midfielder to support this yet.


Putting Dike up front is not going to resolve our creativity issues.

[Richard]

I honestly for once want a team that goes balls to the walls and do something rare such as playing a 3-4-3, im just so bored with the same cookie-cutter formations over and over.

[notthesun]

Defoe on the wing sounds like a pretty bad idea, and although I haven't seen Gilberto play, having him on the wing sounds no more promising.

If you're talking about finding a formation that best fits our strengths... well, our best strength (assuming Defoe arrives) would have to be our strike force, so playing a formation that throws our two best strikers out wide where they've never played before seems the opposite of a natural fit. Dike as a target forward works in a 4-3-3 but it's not worth playing Defoe and Gilberto out of position.

Honestly a 4-4-2 looks pretty good according to our players. Rey should only ever be on the wing and he can swap wings with Jackson, who himself is most used to playing as a wide midfielder. I hope we're still looking for another CM but in the meantime a tandem of Osorio and Laba in CM is decent. Osorio can push a little further forward than Laba, and he's not a slouch on defense like Silva is, which is why Osorio looked better than Silva did at CM rather than CAM. Laba has shown he can carry the majority of the load defensively in CM.

I've read a lot of comments about whether or not Defoe and Gilberto can work well together in a 4-4-2. That's mostly guesswork at this point. We need to see them play together first. Maybe a 4-4-1-1 would work better, and that's what Nelsen used initially at the start of last year.

I don't think Bez is done adding pieces to this team even if Defoe goes through, and I have a feeling he's got something close to a 4-4-2 in mind for that.

[ManUtd4ever]

I think a diamond 4-4-2 is conducive to the collective skillset of our projected roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

------------------Laba------------------

Rey-----------------------------Jackson

-----------------Osorio------------------

---------Defoe----------Gilberto--------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, Wiedeman

[jloome]

The effectiveness of our DPs gets lost if you put them on the wing.

Defoe on the wing sounds like a pretty bad idea, and although I haven't seen Gilberto play, having him on the wing sounds no more promising.

On the wing is pretty relative in a flat 433. If you're playing a short, control game then the team moves as a unit and that includes laterally, so when one outside forward is wide, the other is the guy drifting to the centre or far post. It allows the skill players to get behind the backline and still be in position to score, when the ball is coming in from the other side of the pitch. It also allows Dike to play as a proper target forward and hold up the ball, then feed the two DPs cutting inside.

You don't just play them on the wing or wide, obviously.

I'd also suggest that we had very little decent service to ANY of our two forwards last year. Defoe can create his own but Gilberto looks more a poacher (and a lot of Defoe's goals come from close in, too). We didn't exhibit a lot of ability to bring forwards into play last year, but might be able to with a target forward holding up the ball. And Dike is big and strong.

[0bl1vious]

Personally, I think we are far too thin in the middle and on the wings to be playing 4-3-3. We simply don't have the players with the required skills.

At the moment 4-4-2 diamond or 4-1-3-2 makes more sense. The team in it's current state seems to look stronger on paper using those formations.

Here's a mock-up, I didn't include some players (ie Bekker because he's just not ready yet). I also didn't really want to include De Rosario because I'm hoping he won't be starting on a regular basis.

4-3-3



4-1-3-2

[prizby]

i don't think Nelsen acquires the players he has been acquiring if they don't fit his 'style'; whether these players make/force him to adapt his style to a different formation or such, that is an answer we'll see come pre-season probably

[Abou Sky]

i don't think Nelsen acquires the players he has been acquiring if they don't fit his 'style'; whether these players make/force him to adapt his style to a different formation or such, that is an answer we'll see come pre-season probably

That said, I don't know that he:

1. Has necessarily found his 'style'
2. Even if he did, maybe he hasn't been playing it and has been playing with what he had.

[ag futbol]

As of right now, I think 4-2-3-1 makes the most sense.

The way TFC plays the strikers hardly ever combine on anything and we just signed a guy who has been more successful playing up top by himself and supposedly passing isn't his strong suit. This is what worries me about bringing in Defoe. Doesn't sound like there will be much combination play but how can you possibly avoid playing with two up top? Neither fits a midfield role and you can't drop one to the bench.

[prizby]

As of right now, I think 4-2-3-1 makes the most sense.

The way TFC plays the strikers hardly ever combine on anything and we just signed a guy who has been more successful playing up top by himself and supposedly passing isn't his strong suit. This is what worries me about bringing in Defoe. Doesn't sound like there will be much combination play but how can you possibly avoid playing with two up top? Neither fits a midfield role and you can't drop one to the bench.

it makes the least sense (if Defoe or alike striker comes in); you are not going to sit a DP striker for the sake of a formation

[trane]

4-3-2-1, with what we seem to have now, the 2-1, pretty tight within the wings, to allow for passing between them.

[Canary10]

There's not way we are bringing in two DP strikers to play a lone striker formation.

Also Nelsen will never use a 4-4-2 diamond. It concedes the middle of the pitch. He's a guy that doesn't really like adventurous football, and the diamond is pretty much a recklessly attacking formation. Also we still don't have a true AM for it.

We'll likely play a variant of 4-4-2, maybe the odd switch into 4-3-3.

[Ultra & Proud]

I think a diamond 4-4-2 is conducive to the collective skillset of our projected roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

------------------Laba------------------

Rey-----------------------------Jackson

-----------------Osorio------------------

---------Defoe----------Gilberto--------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, Wiedeman

Me too. I like this set up actually.

[Detroit_TFC]

Have to think any system used will feature both Defoe and Gilberto. The only question is whether Defoe is behind Gilberto or up front along side him.

[Doucet3]

Me too. I like this set up actually.

Been preaching this formation (442 diamond) for a while, seems like the strongest without diluting our depth

[Canary10]

Look at the big hole the diamond creates in the midfield. It's the worst formation in my opinion.

[PopePouri]

Look at the big hole the diamond creates in the midfield. It's the worst formation in my opinion.

Not really. The "wide" midfielders actually tuck in and play more centrally. We may be able to it with the players we have but we're missing a CAM or two. Osorio would actually be better out wide in a diamond that at CAM.

[mowe]

I think Nelson will prefer a 4-4-1-1 with Defoe behind Gilardino.

[Canary10]

Not really. The "wide" midfielders actually tuck in and play more centrally. We may be able to it with the players we have but we're missing a CAM or two. Osorio would actually be better out wide in a diamond that at CAM.

Every time I've ever played with it it does, even with wingers playing in (which raises another problem with it which is lack of width). Also puts a lot on the holding midfielder. One isn't enough cover for the backline. At any rate, I think it's way too adventurous for Nelsen, and I agree we'd at least need an AM to do it. We don't have the players right now.

[ManUtd4ever]

Based on what I saw of Laba last season, I think he could handle being the lone holding midfielder with the wingers supporting him.

That being said, I agree that Nelsen is likely too conservative to try the diamond formation, which is a shame. I think it could work well with our group.

[PopePouri]

I wouldn't call it conservative but just preferred formation. Both Manchester City and United play with width and without a legitimate CAM in a 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2.

[Canary10]

I wouldn't call it conservative but just preferred formation. Both Manchester City and United play with width and without a legitimate CAM in a 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2.

Yeah, but neither play with that exclusively, and in fact use one striker formations more often than not. 4-4-2 is making a bit of a resurgence in the EPL amongst top teams though, with the theory that defences have forgotten how to defend two strikers. The knock on it is 2 central mids often loses the midfield (as most teams play with 3 central mids, so you get overrun). Playing in diamond makes that even worse.

[PopePouri]

Yeah, but neither play with that exclusively, and in fact use one striker formations more often than not. 4-4-2 is making a bit of a resurgence in the EPL amongst top teams though, with the theory that defences have forgotten how to defend two strikers. The knock on it is 2 central mids often loses the midfield (as most teams play with 3 central mids, so you get overrun). Playing in diamond makes that even worse.

I'd say United has played 4-4-1-1 exclusively with Rooney off the striker. City has mostly used a 4-4-2 this season with Aguero and Negredo as a strike partnership. Even with Aguero out, they partnered Negredo and Dzeko in the last game.

Just looking around at the net for the resurgence of 4-4-2, came across this decent article. Nelsen seems to have played a similar style with 2 DMs and the wide mids tucking in.
http://thinkfootball.co.uk/archives/12364

[Canary10]

Rooney's played mostly as an AM this year or at best a false nine. It's killed my fantasy points in a number of games. City switches quite a bit but they still play 4-2-3-1 more often than 4-4-2. Yeah they played 4-4-2 the last game, but the one before Dzeko was a lone striker. Even Aguero and Negredo only play together maybe half the games.

Good article.

[brad]

I think Nelson will prefer a 4-4-1-1 with Defoe behind Gilardino.

Think this is probably correct. Defoe will certainly sit deeper - he has a great outside shot and the pace to exploit from deep.

Of course - I've never seen Gilberto play, and I'm assuming he will be a classic CF

[Canary10]

Think this is probably correct. Defoe will certainly sit deeper - he has a great outside shot and the pace to exploit from deep.

Of course - I've never seen Gilberto play, and I'm assuming he will be a classic CF

Yeah I'd like to see Defoe playing deeper and having more chance to run at defences. His speed on the ball will be hard to handle for MLS defences that aren't used to it.

[tfcocd]

I think a diamond 4-4-2 is conducive to the collective skillset of our projected roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

------------------Laba------------------

Rey-----------------------------Jackson

-----------------Osorio------------------

---------Defoe----------Gilberto--------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, Wiedeman

4-4-1-1, need to drop striker for konopka ( wieds? )


roster.

-----------------Bendik-----------------

Morrow---Caldwell---Henry---Morgan

Rey-----osorio--------Laba----Jackson

-----------------Defoe----------------

----------------Gilberto----------------


Subs: DeRo, Dike, Hall, Lambe, Agboss, Bloom, konopka

this as a starting point seems promising if bez able to successfully find 2 more midfielders and a cb with mls experience or equivalent leading into training camp