BMO to Host Winter Classic...

[Flipityflu]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/24-7/...ng-to-toronto/

[Richard]

Let the Argo's to BMO rumour heat up again...

[DOMIN8R]

Thanks, Flipityflu.

We heard some of this in the past. Nice to see it something in print with quotes though. A couple of things TL says doesn't quite make sense. But very interesting nevertheless.

[Ivy]

Would be interesting to see a "200"s levels added all around the field, as well as a roof and enclosed confession stands. Turn it into an open roof Air Canada Center.

[mowe]

If this happens, especially with talk of a Grey Cup, the Argos seem like a safe bet to move to BMO. Government wouldn't spend that much money just for one off events.

[prizby]

well I guess I'll be dropping my season tickets in a couple of years

[Ron Manager]

Would be interesting to see a "200"s levels added all around the field, as well as a roof and enclosed confession stands. Turn it into an open roof Air Canada Center.

Would that open the door for investment from the Catholic Church? Now that is a wealthy ownership group........

[Flipityflu]

yeah, the talk of the Grey Cup means that adjustments will be made to BMO to allow CFL to use it. if TFC is forced back into playing on an artificial pitch again...

[Kaz]

if the Field is adjusted I doubt I'd go back.. It would kill the atmosphere.

[Cashcleaner]

^ Yeah, that point should be very concerning for TFC fans. They're not just talking about expanding for a single outdoor hockey game; Lieweke brought up a few other events/functions.

“It fits a lot of needs,” he said. “It renovates it for TFC, it certainly renovates it for the Pan Am Games, it renovates it for rugby. The Grey Cup would be phenomenal in an outdoor setting in Toronto on the lake, but (the Winter Classic is) clearly one of the things we put on the wishlist."

So....yeah. That's actually quite concerning. And of course as it's been mentioned, if it's renovated to accommodate the biggest CFL game of the season, you bet your ass we're going to see a push to put the Argos there permanently.

[jimiv]

well I guess I'll be dropping my season tickets in a couple of years

Exactly my thought, it's another example of TFC taking a backseat to every other team in the city.

Ridiculous!

[Flipityflu]

oh, and the best part...funded by all three levels of government, and not MLSE. want to keep CFL out, start with the tax paying public and see how they feel about it.

[ManUtd4ever]

Have at it. I couldn't care less, as long as the integrity of the natural grass playing surface for TFC in not compromised.

[Cashcleaner]

^ I have never been against the principles of ground-sharing, but in the case of BMO Field I just don't see any up-side to it for TFC.

There would have to be substantial renovations made to a stadium that was designed and built specifically to accommodate soccer only. We'd have no choice but to go back to the artificial turf which players constantly criticized, and TFC fans would have to watch the team play from much further back due to the size of the CFL playing field which is about 140 metres in length (compared to 105 metres for soccer).

Unfortunately, its seems very unlikely that we would be able to fit the Argos in and keep the grass pitch and current field dimensions.

[Pookie]

I think they will find a way to keep the grass and add a roof. Their business plan includes big name players and big name players don't play on turf.

I'd be more interested in the size of the stadium and sight lines. Sounds like they are looking for permanent seating expansion combined with temporary.

If the stadium grows to 30,000-35,0000 permanent seats, where are all the soccer fans going to come from? I can't mention the phrase "waiting list" without snickering and many feel that announced attendance is generous at best. BMO, sadly, resembles Crew stadium on most nights.

Will they close down sections with tarps to make it appear full? Or shuffle folks to one side for the cameras like New England?

Sadly, the National Soccer Stadium appears to be taking a back seat. They aren't considering a roof or improvements for the soccer community. They are considering it for a hockey game and likely to bring in more rent money from The CFL.

Nice.

[prizby]

So....yeah. That's actually quite concerning. And of course as it's been mentioned, if it's renovated to accommodate the biggest CFL game of the season, you bet your ass we're going to see a push to put the Argos there permanently.

no way all 3 levels of government chip in if the Argos aren't part of the plan

[ensco]

This is all PT Barnum's got? That is a weak hand.

The best part is the howler putting this all on whether the league will go for it. Whizzing right by government participation piece, like it's an afterthought.

If MLSE gets a single dime for this from any level of government, a lot of people are going to be upset. Whether that happens or not is the real game here.

Peddie was great at this stuff, but he did it all out of sight, that's how this city and this country works. Something tells me PT Barnum, publicly pressuring politicians, talking smack, generally crashing through the brambles, will not be effective at this.

The Leafs would make $5M or similar from every single game played at a 40K seat venue. The facts don't support what he wants. The public doesn't have to, or need to, pay for this.

I actually feel better now, I think there is a real chance this initiative will fail, if this is how he is handling it.

[Flipityflu]

yes, thats what I was thinking in my post. As soon as he mentioned funding from three levels of government, that would be the way to fight this, and trust me, any TFC/football supporter is going to want to fight this. I know a roof is wanted, but this is not how we want to get it. this reno will ruin BMO. we will be heading back to artificial pitch, and pushing the stands back to fit the CFL.

oh, and keep in mind our crack smoking gang mayor loves his pointy ball, so city funding will be easy to get.

[Initial B]

I wouldn't mind Hybrid Turf: If it's good enough for Wembley, it's good enough for us. But if they lengthen the field, they'd better relocate the supporters section in front of the goal line. No serious fan wants to be farther from the action than they have to be. I would see a mass exodus of hardcore support if they did that.

Just to give an example, the Ottawa Fury originally had their supporter's section at the new Frank Clair Stadium located in the seats around the CFL endzone - at least 20 yards behind the goal line. The supporters waged an email/in person protest and got them to move the section to just before the goal line. They have to pay more as a result, but the supporters are satisfied. And they made sure to move the family-friendly section as far from the supporters as possible so they hopefully won't hear too much colourful language.

[Auzzy]

Agreed that the flippant mention of funding from all three levels of government is bizarre. Check the first comments under the article to see how that's gonna fly.

There are theoretically technical ways to do this & still keep the venue decent for footy. Maybe the CFL end zones, & keeping TFC fans close to the field, is not the hardest part? Especially in the south end, the bottom section of seats could be similar to now for soccer (RE distance to the pitch), but retractable to open up the area for the longer CFL end zones. CFL seating would start a bit higher up, above a wall as is common for gridiron stadiums.

There are issues even with that though. Retracting those front rows removes seats, giving you less seating for CFL than for footy, which is probably not what they want. Plus I don't know if/how it could be done in the North End, where there is apparently a big foundation under the patio, and generally a more complicated configuration. The whole stadium & seating would likely have to be pushed south to make room for both CFL end zones. As previously mentioned, that means you have to also reconfigure the east & west stands, so the "best" seats are still near the midline, increasing cost & complexity. Plus that pushes the playing field away from the north stand, which isn't good for anyone.

Note also that the SW steps up to the west side concourse & seating seem to be a significant concrete structure, that wraps partway behind the south stands. Pushing the south stands further south, means demolishing those steps & the structure.

For the pitch: theoretically you can have removable grass, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfJ9Da7Dvf0 or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsKpTV0mi7k
With the grass pitch pushed out, you can have plastic turf for Argos; or concrete floor for Winter Classic and similar events. Plus a roof of any kind shades the grass & makes it not grow & regenerate as well, so pushing the pitch out into the open between the events can help.

HOWEVER, that solution is surely incredibly expensive. Plus you need room to store the grass pitch outside the stadium while CFL/hockey/other events take place. TL wants to use the open space to turn things like the Winter Classic into bigger events; hard to do both.

Probably they would cheap out. Maybe they would put in Desso Grassmaster or something like that (mixed plastic & natural grass). Better than plastic pitch, but I still doubt it's as good for knees & tendons as well-maintained natural grass.

They would try to book Argos games a day or so (Sundays) after TFC games, giving the field a week or two to regenerate before the next footy game. Would probably screw up our TFC schedule even more, with less home games in summer & early fall. They would try to scrub out the CFL lines for TFC -- which isn't great for the durability of any type of turf BTW.

TL seems to think stadium sharing with gridiron works great at a few locations in MLS. But if you check what happens with the grass in Houston & a few other MLS venues, you know that's not true.

[Haddy]

It's really starting to drive me nuts when TL gets talking about this stuff and the reporter isn't prepared enough.

When TL mentioned govt funding, the reporter should have followed with, "I was under the impression all further BMO renos were to be privately funded - and you have repeated as much in other recent interviews. Is this not true anymore? How did public funding come into the picture?"

Even if the man says "no comment", I want to see his reply.

That and the fact that no Argos mentioned despite Grey Cup coming up......terrible.

This articles leaves me with more questions than answers. Arghh!!!

[Haddy]

Agreed that the flippant mention of funding from all three levels of government is bizarre. Check the first comments under the article to see how that's gonna fly.

There are theoretically technical ways to do this & still keep the venue decent for footy. Maybe the CFL end zones, & keeping TFC fans close to the field, is not the hardest part? Especially in the south end, the bottom section of seats could be similar to now for soccer (RE distance to the pitch), but retractable to open up the area for the longer CFL end zones. CFL seating would start a bit higher up, above a wall as is common for gridiron stadiums.

There are issues even with that though. Retracting those front rows removes seats, giving you less seating for CFL than for footy, which is probably not what they want. Plus I don't know if/how it could be done in the North End, where there is apparently a big foundation under the patio, and generally a more complicated configuration. The whole stadium & seating would likely have to be pushed south to make room for both CFL end zones. As previously mentioned, that means you have to also reconfigure the east & west stands, so the "best" seats are still near the midline, increasing cost & complexity. Plus that pushes the playing field away from the north stand, which isn't good for anyone.

Note also that the SW steps up to the west side concourse & seating seem to be a significant concrete structure, that wraps partway behind the south stands. Pushing the south stands further south, means demolishing those steps & the structure.

For the pitch: theoretically you can have removable grass, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfJ9Da7Dvf0 or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsKpTV0mi7k
With the grass pitch pushed out, you can have plastic turf for Argos; or concrete floor for Winter Classic and similar events. Plus a roof of any kind shades the grass & makes it not grow & regenerate as well, so pushing the pitch out into the open between the events can help.

HOWEVER, that solution is surely incredibly expensive. Plus you need room to store the grass pitch outside the stadium while CFL/hockey/other events take place. TL wants to use the open space to turn things like the Winter Classic into bigger events; hard to do both.

Probably they would cheap out. Maybe they would put in Desso Grassmaster or something like that (mixed plastic & natural grass). Better than plastic pitch, but I still doubt it's as good for knees & tendons as well-maintained natural grass.

They would try to book Argos games a day or so (Sundays) after TFC games, giving the field a week or two to regenerate before the next footy game. Would probably screw up our TFC schedule even more, with less home games in summer & early fall. They would try to scrub out the CFL lines for TFC -- which isn't great for the durability of any type of turf BTW.

TL seems to think stadium sharing with gridiron works great at a few locations in MLS. But if you check what happens with the grass in Houston & a few other MLS venues, you know that's not true.

If Argos games are a day later you are virtually guaranteed gridiron lines. See: Seattle Sounders playoff match

[Auzzy]

If Argos games are a day later you are virtually guaranteed gridiron lines. See: Seattle Sounders playoff match

Can't they lay down the gridiron lines within a day after TFC plays?

Agreed that playoffs would change everything, since you can't really schedule that well enough. The most important games (if they ever come) could end up looking the worst.

[Eastend]

I don't want my seat and experienced changed either but I can't say yea or nay on this without seeing the plan. This argument has gone on for so many years now but we've never heard or seen any real plan. Hopefully when/if this comes to fruition we get some input, and I don't mean just RPB but all supporters and SSH of TFC.

Dom

[jimiv]

With all the changes talked about, we will no doubt be at the skydome for a full season or at least a big portion of one or possibly 2 seasons with the wonderful "turf" and crappy sightlines.

[Pookie]

Dear Tim

Let me get this straight. You want to build a multipurpose 50,000 seat stadium with a partial roof to protect from the elements right in the heart of downtown near hotels, bars and restaurants?

No thanks. We already fianced one.

Ask your ownership about it. It's called the Rogers Centre.

Signed,

Taxpayers of Ontario

[BuSaPuNk]

Dear Tim

No thanks. We already financed a 55,000 seat stadium in downtown Toronto that is perfect for CFL games and a winter classic. Not to mention concerts and the odd soccer game.

Ask your ownership about it. It's called the Rogers Centre.

Signed,

Taxpayers of Ontario

Unfortunately the can't use the SKYDOME as the roof doesn't open in winter. So that's a no go for a winter classic.

[Haddy]

Can't they lay down the gridiron lines within a day after TFC plays?

Agreed that playoffs would change everything, since you can't really schedule that well enough. The most important games (if they ever come) could end up looking the worst.

Theoretically yes - by staffing the night after TFC plays and possibly paying OT. Seattle has it tough, they are a guest at CenturyLink and didn't have a choice. Hopefully with TFC's owner also operating the stadium we would see a different result.

[Haddy]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl...-to-bmo-field/

Follow up to the original article. Arash Madani explores the Argos-to-BMO.

[Pookie]

Is opening the roof a criteria for hosting the game? Vancouver's may be closed today.

Regardless, I am sure an engineer can figure out a way to get it to open or a lot less than building a duplicate corporate welfare money pit.