Nationality and local football

[MartinUtd]

There's good conversation taking place in the wrong thread about the sentiment that TFC has left the Italian community behind.

From what I gather the reasons are rooted in the youth set up.. something about TFCA not working with established local youth clubs, poaching young players and basically shitting where they eat. I'm not privvy to the details, this is just what I've picked from places like here and the blogosphere.

If true, those are certainly good reasons to be angry at the club but what I don't get is how signing a big name Italian DP is supposed to make up for that? Furthermore I'm seeing the narrative that TFC has soley been marketed to the UK crowed. As an expat, I don't see it, but perhaps that is part of my bias. Am I to believe that Dichio, Robinson (a Welshman), Ricketts and Iro were used as a marketing tool to pull me in. Or was that the MoJo and Carver thing? Either way, they've done a shit job of marketing to me as an Englishman. You could probably argue that TFC has done as much to please the Guyanese community.

So... have at it

[ArmenJBX]

I think Toronto FC is somewhat hampered in its identity the way Chivas USA is.

Toronto went full-on Canadian and embraced the maple leaf but when the question of "what makes one Canadian?" comes up, especially in Toronto, it becomes an issue of representation.

Essentially, Toronto FC spent a whole lot of energy into creating this identity that we are the club for the Canadian people. We are Canada's club. We represent the people of Toronto. This is something pretty unique to Toronto FC; you don't see Seattle or Columbus or New England saying "We represent the people of X city," the way Toronto FC did.

So, that's what this boils down to - what makes a Torontonian a Torontonian? For a large part of the Italian community, and the Portuguese community, and the Greek community, living in Toronto means embracing their culture. So, when a club is issuing this "All for one" brand but supplying the city with coaches, managers and icons from fringe segments of the population or from the U.K. (De Rosario, De Guzman, Ricketts, etc), there's a "well, when do I get a player?" thing going on.

Which, for the most part, is fair; I'd love to see an Armenian player at Toronto FC. If Toronto FC manages to sign a player like Yura Movsisyan, I'll be the first in line for a shirt (spelled correctly, I'd hope!) But that's me. For the Italian community, especially on the advent of Gilardino news and the hyping of the Roma game, combined with what's happened in Montreal, there's a sense that Toronto FC doesn't necessarily care about them. Which isn't true, not one bit. I don't think the club actively goes against signing certain players. In fact, I think it speaks a lot about the quality of Italian footballers in that they don't easily make moves away from Serie A or Serie B. However, a history of managers associated in the British leagues (and, thus, having plenty of contacts in those leagues and with their teams) gave Toronto FC this image of signing UK players first and foremost; it's why guys like John Bostock and Hogan Ephraim and Robert Earnshaw joined over the last offseason and not players from Serie B.

This Gilardino - Defoe situation has evolved into such that it looks like Toronto FC is going to be buying one and not the other. So, again, in the Italian community's eyes, it's England vs. Italy, and Italy is set to lose out once again to an English player, who many believe isn't even better than Gilardino in the first place.

In an ideal world, TFC is a mix of every major ethnicity but that's not how football works. I've always subscribed to the idea that your passport shouldn't determine your spot on the roster, to a certain extent (in that local and international players must be given considerations). However, if the club is brandying about this image of representing the city, then large, vocal parts of the city that go underrepresented will say something about that.

But if you field me a team of 11 winners from San Marino vs. 11 last-place finishers from Brazil, I know which team I'll pick every time.

[tfcleeds]

Glad this topic has been picked up elsewhere, because I think it's an interesting one. OK, so what I don't get is this. If the Italian community in the GTA, by and large, doesn't care for TFC because of perceived or real slights relating to the club's community outreach (read: youth football), suddenly TFC signing a big-name Italian player is supposed to make it all better? I don't get that. My contention is, either you support this club for what it is, or you don't. It should have nothing to do with the various ethnic rivalries that have served to undermine Toronto soccer clubs in the past.

[Yohan]

It's not just TFC that has a British centric bent when it comes to signing players from Europe. Other teams do it too, and I think it is because English makes it easier for players to adapt to the league. And a lot of coaches have British background, who played in North America, probably because easier to get a job when you can speak English. And their influence still remains in MLS. (Kinnear, Nicol, Mariner, even Preki)

I don't think MLS has a bias against non English speaking players from Europe, but until recently, it's been pretty hard to attract those players, the Spanish or Italians, or French, with few exceptions.

Central America and South American players are totally different dynamic.

[ArmenJBX]

Glad this topic has been picked up elsewhere, because I think it's an interesting one. OK, so what I don't get is this. If the Italian community in the GTA, by and large, doesn't care for TFC because of perceived or real slights relating to the club's community outreach (read: youth football), suddenly TFC signing a big-name Italian player is supposed to make it all better? I don't get that. My contention is, either you support this club for what it is, or you don't. It should have nothing to do with the various ethnic rivalries that have served to undermine Toronto soccer clubs in the past.

I think what it comes down to is that the Italian football fans were never given a chance to become Toronto FC fans.

There hasn't been a huge TFC presence at Italian hang out joints/eateries the way there has been in British pubs and dives. There hasn't been Italian icons the way there has been Scottish (Mo), Welsh (Earnshaw/Robinson), Irish (O'Dea) or English (any number of young burnout prodigies like Ephraim, Ricketts) ones. Toronto FC doesn't make the Italian papers - when Gilardino came up, one Italian news outlet thought we were Torino because they don't know Toronto.

That relationship hasn't been cultivated in the same way. I'd argue the same can be said for the Greek community.

That's not to say Italians don't watch Toronto FC; however, they feel it's not their team. The comparisons to Liverpool in year one, and Saputo signing Nesta and Di Vaio did two things; it established the idea that, wait a second, Italian internationals can and will sign for MLS teams, which means Toronto FC isn't incapable of signing them, which means Toronto FC has neglected to sign them.

Your argument that you support the club for what it is is a fair one. But, give them Gilardino, and you create at least 5000 lifelong fans who will stick around after he's gone. But you can't tell someone to like something without giving them a reason to try it first. You have to cater to your customer, to a certain extent, and get them in the door first. The Roma game proved that this city will come out in droves to watch what it likes. For a large part of the city, what it likes is Italian footballers. It's up to Toronto to get them through the door, and then keep them there with its own performances. Chalking it up to "take it or leave it" is admitting that Toronto FC in its current shape is not good enough to keep the attention of the average Italian football fan who doesn't necessarily follow the team.

[TOBOR !]

The idea behind multiculturalism is that people from many different backgrounds come together to form one community. Instead, what happens is people from these different backgrounds form pockets of their own nationalities, creating unique areas in town where you can go to visit another culture. This is great, but it's not multiculturalism.

This creates a problem for TFC. They can't please everyone (or anyone) by focusing on any one nationality. I think they'd be further ahead if they tried to build locally, or at least through second gen canadians (at least at the academy level).

[MKR]

What about Andrea Lombardo?!

(i'm kind of kidding btw).

[pekduck]

The idea behind multiculturalism is that people from many different backgrounds come together to form one community. Instead, what happens is people from these different backgrounds form pockets of their own nationalities, creating unique areas in town where you can go to visit another culture. This is great, but it's not multiculturalism.

This creates a problem for TFC. They can't please everyone (or anyone) by focusing on any one nationality. I think they'd be further ahead if they tried to build locally, or at least through second gen canadians (at least at the academy level).

This.

Also, IMHO, club should take care of building a solid team first regardless of where the player is from. When we can have more W than L season in and season out, then they can branch out and crank up the marketing machine and cater to different prospective ethnicity. It's just business, see the divisive nature of the way things are, and make most money out of it. Just need to make sure the order of execution is there.

[McBrace]

The Italians weren't given a chance? I'm confused..I thought when this club started it was for everyone to watch a LOCAL professional.... I thought the whole "All for One" was as clear as day... Guess not..

[ArmenJBX]

The Italians weren't given a chance? I'm confused..I thought when this club started it was for everyone to watch a LOCAL professional.... I thought the whole "All for One" was as clear as day... Guess not..

Intentions and practices rarely mix in business, it seems.

TFC went full on with the British flavouring right off the top with Andy Welsh, Carl Robinson, Danny Dichio, Ronnie O'Brien, then kept it going by signing Rohan Ricketts, Andy Iro, Reggie Lambe, Richard Eckersley, Darren O'Dea, Robert Earnshaw, Taylor Morgan, Darel Russell, Hogan Ephraim, John Bostock and Steven Caldwell, without every signing an Italian player in between. Not one. The closest was Gianluca Zavarise.

All For One it may be but it hasn't reflected that in the acquisition sheets. It's mostly Canadian, American and British.

[tfcleeds]

I think what it comes down to is that the Italian football fans were never given a chance to become Toronto FC fans. There hasn't been a huge TFC presence at Italian hang out joints/eateries the way there has been in British pubs and dives. There hasn't been Italian icons the way there has been Scottish (Mo), Welsh (Earnshaw/Robinson), Irish (O'Dea) or English (any number of young burnout prodigies like Ephraim, Ricketts) ones. Toronto FC doesn't make the Italian papers - when Gilardino came up, one Italian news outlet thought we were Torino because they don't know Toronto. That relationship hasn't been cultivated in the same way. I'd argue the same can be said for the Greek community. That's not to say Italians don't watch Toronto FC; however, they feel it's not their team. The comparisons to Liverpool in year one, and Saputo signing Nesta and Di Vaio did two things; it established the idea that, wait a second, Italian internationals can and will sign for MLS teams, which means Toronto FC isn't incapable of signing them, which means Toronto FC has neglected to sign them. Your argument that you support the club for what it is is a fair one. But, give them Gilardino, and you create at least 5000 lifelong fans who will stick around after he's gone. But you can't tell someone to like something without giving them a reason to try it first. You have to cater to your customer, to a certain extent, and get them in the door first. The Roma game proved that this city will come out in droves to watch what it likes. For a large part of the city, what it likes is Italian footballers. It's up to Toronto to get them through the door, and then keep them there with its own performances. Chalking it up to "take it or leave it" is admitting that Toronto FC in its current shape is not good enough to keep the attention of the average Italian football fan who doesn't necessarily follow the team.

Good post, and you make a lot of interesting points. I've always felt it was a shame that Toronto FC didn't seem to resonate with the 500,000+ people of Italian descent in the GTA - it represents a huge market to be tapped. But the idea of pandering to certain communities, be it Italian, Greek, Portuguese, British, Caribbean, whatever - just doesn't sit well with me somehow. You don't see it in other sports, and I just think it's a shame it always seems to have to be the case here with soccer. Back in 2007, Toronto FC was supposed to represent a new beginning, a club that all soccer fans in the GTA could rally around, and leave all the -Italia, -Croatia, -Sporting suffixes in the past. Just a shame that people see TFC as being a "British" club where I really don't see that at all. Sure, we've brought in a lot of British players - most of them have been utter shite! If that's "catering"....well...

[MartinUtd]

So, that's what this boils down to - what makes a Torontonian a Torontonian? For a large part of the Italian community, and the Portuguese community, and the Greek community, living in Toronto means embracing their culture. So, when a club is issuing this "All for one" brand but supplying the city with coaches, managers and icons from fringe segments of the population or from the U.K. (De Rosario, De Guzman, Ricketts, etc), there's a "well, when do I get a player?" thing going on.

I want to watch TFC to see Mo Johnson manage a team, said no one ever.

Seriously though, icons? I think you're giving too much credit to the past. I see on your list two Canadians and a below average squad player who happens to be English. Granted they're not Italian, but if this their attempt to appeal to me then they've missed the mark. So far I've seen TFC try to be "Canada's Team" which like you said, is difficult given national identity (or lack thereof). In the end, I think "take it or leave it" is the exact mantra we should offer to anyone who puts ethnic division above simply having a local football team.

[zeelaw]

VooDoo I posted your quote and my response here. Cheers

TFC doesn't need to pay attention to Italian footballing. They need to pay attention to world football. They need to understand that there are lots of ways to improve. Pick one, stick with it and move on.

As for the UK mentality...it's been at TFC since day one and Canadian soccer forever.

I know people don't agree but TFC was built, on and off the field, to cater to those who follow UK football.

And I was very happy when they went with the "Dutch" school of thought. They could have gone with any school of thought that has produced success to be honest. It could have been Dutch, German, Italian, Mexican, argentine etc.

And when they did that they HAD to add mariner. And when the waters got rough what did they do? Right back to the good old UK mentality.

And then we move to Nelsen. And you think he's an American influence because Payne had him at dc over a decade ago? Where was he after that?

Like I said...it is what it is. But to deny what is right before our eyes is nuts.

So what if they focused on French football philosophy, would you still be upset it wasn't Italian football mentality?

Can you please explain how TFC has shown examples of using the UK football mentality? The only one I would say was signing John Carver. I might be wrong but a significant majority of "UK mentality" all had very good MLS experience, front office and on the field.

I don't get why catering to an Italian demographic as opposed to the city of Toronto should be a concern to Toronto FC.

[zeelaw]

There hasn't been Italian icons the way there has been Scottish (Mo), Welsh (Earnshaw/Robinson), Irish (O'Dea) or English (any number of young burnout prodigies like Ephraim, Ricketts) ones.

Do you think I supported TFC because there is a previous Celtic/Rangers player managing, lower league premier league players and "young burnout prodigies playing"? How is that an attraction to British fans?

[v00d00daddy]

Speaking as an Canadian first, Italian second, and only speaking for myself I'll say this:

It's not about having Italian players for me. It's about a footballing culture. A way of thinking and approaching the game.

When TFC was announced I was ecstatic. I was one of the first to buy seasons tickets. That being said, I had concerns. I voiced them too. If we can go back to look at the old boards you'll see this conversation way back when.

I never understood why they chose to build the team the way they did. I can understand wanting to pick a particular model and running with it. But why the UK model?

More importantly…..when they figured out that what they were doing wasn't working….and made the decision to implement a more forward thinking, contemporary philosophy, why did they scrap it because of one coach?

Why did they have to give Winter Paul Mariner?

Why, when they decided to fire Winter, did they revert back to the old way of thinking?

Why have they again gone to the UK for their coach?

As for Defoe…..in response to someone in the other thread….yes they're pursuing him because he's a great footballer. But they're also pursuing him because of where he plays his club football, where he was born and the country he represents on the national level.

Same goes for Gilardino.

The problem is that TFC has catered only one demographic in this city but continues to tell us that it's "All for one".

[zeelaw]

There's good conversation taking place in the wrong thread about the sentiment that TFC has left the Italian community behind.

From what I gather the reasons are rooted in the youth set up.. something about TFCA not working with established local youth clubs, poaching young players and basically shitting where they eat. I'm not privvy to the details, this is just what I've picked from places like here and the blogosphere.

This is the only legitimate bone to pick I've read so far and the Italian community is right to be pissed about that.

[v00d00daddy]

Good post, and you make a lot of interesting points. I've always felt it was a shame that Toronto FC didn't seem to resonate with the 500,000+ people of Italian descent in the GTA - it represents a huge market to be tapped. But the idea of pandering to certain communities, be it Italian, Greek, Portuguese, British, Caribbean, whatever - just doesn't sit well with me somehow. You don't see it in other sports, and I just think it's a shame it always seems to have to be the case here with soccer. Back in 2007, Toronto FC was supposed to represent a new beginning, a club that all soccer fans in the GTA could rally around, and leave all the -Italia, -Croatia, -Sporting suffixes in the past. Just a shame that people see TFC as being a "British" club where I really don't see that at all. Sure, we've brought in a lot of British players - most of them have been utter shite! If that's "catering"....well...

Totally agree. Now tell me why they pandered to the UK based footballing culture and supporter?

[zeelaw]

Totally agree. Now tell me why they pandered to the UK based footballing culture and supporter?

VooDoo, you haven't explained how they have yet! I'm not trying to be an ass but I am curious!

[Damien]

What about Andrea Lombardo?!

(i'm kind of kidding btw).

^ This! We gave them Italianos their chance and they blew it!

[ag futbol]

I'd argue this is really more about connecting with people locally and less about ethnicity. TFC, and I think MLS deserves a lot of blame for this too, have never handled this market properly.

The structure for Canadian Clubs within MLS remains piss-poor IMO and is an issue that will have to be dealt with in the future.

[ArmenJBX]

Do you think I supported TFC because there is a previous Celtic/Rangers player managing, lower league premier league players and "young burnout prodigies playing"? How is that an attraction to British fans?

No, not suggesting that at all. It's why there's still a huge faction of English footy fans that don't care for Toronto FC.

Again, I'm not of the camp that says "we need to have Italian players" - passport isn't important, results are. But, I can see why the Italian side of the city hasn't embraced the city; there has been no reason for them to. For some reason, Toronto FC quickly picked up a reputation for being a Brit-friendly team and kept it throughout. I'm not saying Mo Johnston was the reason why people came to see TFC, but Mo's connections formed the team, and those connections were mostly British, which perpetuated this idea.

It also comes down to playing style; TFC has always played poorly. In England's lower divisions, loyalty to a team comes first, performance second. It's why eternally terrible teams have support. In Italy, there's a stress on tactically beautiful football. Toronto hasn't had that consistently.

[McBrace]

Intentions and practices rarely mix in business, it seems.

TFC went full on with the British flavouring right off the top with Andy Welsh, Carl Robinson, Danny Dichio, Ronnie O'Brien, then kept it going by signing Rohan Ricketts, Andy Iro, Reggie Lambe, Richard Eckersley, Darren O'Dea, Robert Earnshaw, Taylor Morgan, Darel Russell, Hogan Ephraim, John Bostock and Steven Caldwell, without every signing an Italian player in between. Not one. The closest was Gianluca Zavarise.

All For One it may be but it hasn't reflected that in the acquisition sheets. It's mostly Canadian, American and British.

Coming from A Portuguese background, I never once felt entitled to having a Portuguese player. I also assumed that because having a Scottish GM/Coach at the time was the reason for having a lot of Brits, likely due to their connections. Lets face it, players from around the world aren't exactly knocking at our door begging to play here. Dichio, Alen Stevanović, Lambardo all have Italian connections, I guess this isn't enough...

I believe the "All for One" was meant all communities support one team, not all communities represented on the pitch...

[Yohan]

Speaking as an Canadian first, Italian second, and only speaking for myself I'll say this:

It's not about having Italian players for me. It's about a footballing culture. A way of thinking and approaching the game.

When TFC was announced I was ecstatic. I was one of the first to buy seasons tickets. That being said, I had concerns. I voiced them too. If we can go back to look at the old boards you'll see this conversation way back when.

I never understood why they chose to build the team the way they did. I can understand wanting to pick a particular model and running with it. But why the UK model?

More importantly…..when they figured out that what they were doing wasn't working….and made the decision to implement a more forward thinking, contemporary philosophy, why did they scrap it because of one coach?

Why did they have to give Winter Paul Mariner?

Why, when they decided to fire Winter, did they revert back to the old way of thinking?

Why have they again gone to the UK for their coach?

As for Defoe…..in response to someone in the other thread….yes they're pursuing him because he's a great footballer. But they're also pursuing him because of where he plays his club football, where he was born and the country he represents on the national level.

Same goes for Gilardino.

The problem is that TFC has catered only one demographic in this city but continues to tell us that it's "All for one".

you can so believe the UK bias all you want, but it's not just Toronto that likes hiring English speaking players. most MLS teams do it, and did it esp back in 07. (DC United was only team that heavily emphasized Latino flavour, but even then it was limited) Especially in MLS coaching world.

And you tend to hire people that you know, or familiar with. I don't know who else was available for TFC job in 07, (though Bob Gansler was more than qualified as MLS head coach) but by looking at MLS in 2007, it was likely that someone who had experience with MLS with British flavour was going to be picked as head coach. Only in recent years, you see more 'distinct' team philosophies, since the introduction of Seattle and MLS 2.0.

And still the only manager to win the MLS Cup is Gary Smith, an Englishman. (meaning, only coach without prior MLS experience)

[ArmenJBX]

I don't think we should keep score of ethnicities; we've had so many, Dutch, German, Bermudan, Argentine, Nigerian. It's not really a contest. But, doesn't the fact that there hasn't been one Italian footballer in a city with half a million Italians and a deep history of Italian settlers feel a bit strange?

[zeelaw]

Again, I'm not of the camp that says "we need to have Italian players" - passport isn't important, results are. But, I can see why the Italian side of the city hasn't embraced the city; there has been no reason for them to. For some reason, Toronto FC quickly picked up a reputation for being a Brit-friendly team and kept it throughout. I'm not saying Mo Johnston was the reason why people came to see TFC, but Mo's connections formed the team, and those connections were mostly British, which perpetuated this idea.

It also comes down to playing style; TFC has always played poorly. In England's lower divisions, loyalty to a team comes first, performance second. It's why eternally terrible teams have support. In Italy, there's a stress on tactically beautiful football. Toronto hasn't had that consistently.

I agree 100% about the different cultural elements of these communities and how they support. But I do have a hard time saying Catenaccio is beautiful football.

[ArmenJBX]

I agree 100% about the different cultural elements of these communities and how they support. But I do have a hard time saying Catenaccio is beautiful football.

Tactically* beautiful.

An emphasis on formation, movement, match ups and passing. It has a beauty, you can't deny that!

A shield can shine as bright as a sword when treated with care.

[trane]

^ This! We gave them Italianos their chance and they blew it!

Almost everyone that we tried at this club, has blown it so far.

[Canary10]

The idea behind multiculturalism is that people from many different backgrounds come together to form one community. Instead, what happens is people from these different backgrounds form pockets of their own nationalities, creating unique areas in town where you can go to visit another culture. This is great, but it's not multiculturalism.

This creates a problem for TFC. They can't please everyone (or anyone) by focusing on any one nationality. I think they'd be further ahead if they tried to build locally, or at least through second gen canadians (at least at the academy level).

That's one idea of multiculturalism but not the only one. Americans call the version you describe as the melting pot. The mosaic is one we tend to have in Canada. Neither is wrong or right, although I prefer our version. It's harder, but makes for a more interesting and varied society in my opinion. I'm not a fan of monoculture.

[zeelaw]

Tactically* beautiful.

An emphasis on formation, movement, match ups and passing. It has a beauty, you can't deny that!

A shield can shine as bright as a sword when treated with care.

Oh shit yes sorry, you are right about that. From a tactical coaching viewpoint it is beautiful.

[Yohan]

I don't think we should keep score of ethnicities; we've had so many, Dutch, German, Bermudan, Argentine, Nigerian. It's not really a contest. But, doesn't the fact that there hasn't been one Italian footballer in a city with half a million Italians and a deep history of Italian settlers feel a bit strange?

no it doesn't. there were few in early years of MLS, but until 2012, there were no other Italians in MLS. probably meaning it was hard to attract Italian players in MLS, and even now, there are only 2 players (Cudicini in LA, who is likely getting punted, and Tornaghi who got released from Chicago) outside of Montreal. unless one is going to argue everyone in MLS is racist against Italians lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...gn_MLS_players