TFC's "Burned Bridges"

[Derko]

If this is how this team is being built, I worry about out future.

I'm pretty sure there not banking on just grabbing any old DP just because of where he's from just to cater to a certain ethnic group of fans.

Winning solves everything. You want the place packed game in game out, win.

If you can't score more goals than the other guy, I'm pretty sure ' You're Fucked ' If it takes, hoof ball to do that, great, if it takes latteral short passing up the field to do that, great.
Just get the players to do the job, where from, How about Iceland, I am sure they have a few players that could tear the league a new one.

[Canary10]

What I have noticed over the years - people that grew up around football (usually ex-pats or 2nd generation Canadians in my experience) generally tend to know more about the game than folks that grew up in Canada, and are most likely relatively new to the game. As such, the standards of what they expect to see on the pitch is higher. That doesn't mean that the expectation you need a Barca/Milan/Man Utd quality out there, but a team that at least looks like a professional team and can handle the basics. TFC did not deliver on that.

To give an example, I have one particularity family member from the UK that grew up watching a very mediocre mid division side in the 60's, 70's and 80's. This was not a high standard of football. When TFC appeared, he was excited to have a local team to support. When I started taking him to games several years back, he was pretty much an utter disbelief that TFC were actually a professional team getting paid to play football. It's not the fact the team lost or anything like that. It was the fact that overall play was utterly inept. Players followed the ball around like kids do. No one held shape, no one played positionally properly, no one moved off the ball, that sort of stuff.

That's the kind of stuff I have seen first hand that has driven ex-pats away, not the lack of success. A lot of ex-pats support a team their whole life that never wins anything.

Yeah, forget about local/cultural variations on the how the game is played being the reason why Italians (or any other expats) don't support TFC. We're not even there yet. The most basic level of play is still below what people are used to in footballing nations. That's the real problem. It's improving (I've watched a few Portland games where the fluidity of their play and movement was actually quite good to watch). But for the most part, MLS isn't playing the "beautiful game," no matter what local variation of it you are used to. And TFC even less so than the better teams.

[brad]

If you can't score more goals than the other guy, I'm pretty sure ' You're Fucked ' If it takes, hoof ball to do that, great, if it takes latteral short passing up the field to do that, great.
Just get the players to do the job, where from, How about Iceland, I am sure they have a few players that could tear the league a new one.

I think it is going to take a winning team + a competent, entertaining style to really win people back. A winning team will get people in for sure while the team is winning, but if the football is boring (IE long ball) then folks are not going to stick around past the hype. It needs a good, entertaining brand of football to keep people there.

[Fort York Redcoat]

It's improving But for the most part, MLS isn't playing the "beautiful game," no matter what local variation of it you are used to. And TFC even less so than the better teams.

Quoted for emphasis, truth, and agree + etc

[Derko]

I think it is going to take a winning team + a competent, entertaining style to really win people back. A winning team will get people in for sure while the team is winning, but if the football is boring (IE long ball) then folks are not going to stick around past the hype. It needs a good, entertaining brand of football to keep people there.

Oh totally agree needs to be creative and fluid to keep the likes of you and I and 90% of supporters at the games, but as afore mentioned be competitive, I felt that during the Winter season, (no pun intended) you could really see some of that creativity and technical play, but didn't have enough of those players for it to materialize, no?

[brad]

Oh totally agree needs to be creative and fluid to keep the likes of you and I and 90% of supporters at the games, but as afore mentioned be competitive, I felt that during the Winter season, (no pun intended) you could really see some of that creativity and technical play, but didn't have enough of those players for it to materialize, no?

I think we are on the right path. If we can add some potency to the attack - both up front and through the midfield I think we will be okay. I think defensively both at the back and through the midfield we are decent (fullback will need some attention though). I think a lot of our defensive issues in the latter part of this last year had a lot to do with the fact that our attack was so inept that teams knew they could come at us with very little fear of getting hit on the break.

[TFC07]

I think it is going to take a winning team + a competent, entertaining style to really win people back. A winning team will get people in for sure while the team is winning, but if the football is boring (IE long ball) then folks are not going to stick around past the hype. It needs a good, entertaining brand of football to keep people there.

Too bad Aron Winter lost the locker room in the end. Just imagine where we will be today if he had more time (or his replacement kept playing Winter's way) and had someone who share his philosophy in TFC FO?

When on form during Winter era, TFC looked great and they were holding their own against bigger clubs (especially in CCL).

[ag futbol]

The plan given to Aron Winter was great, Aron Winter himself was not. He was rightfully fired.

The mistake the club made was not continuing on with the plan. We have to stop doing philosophical 180s every time we fire the coach.

[trane]

What you are saying is that Italians won't watch the game unless it's played the Italian way there are serious Xenophobic undertones to that.

No it does not, it is a simple statement of fact, that people that grew up with one tradition, like football played in that tradition, and are more likely to support a team built in that tradition, and less likely if it is not. What is xenophobic about that?

[trane]

What I have noticed over the years - people that grew up around football (usually ex-pats or 2nd generation Canadians in my experience) generally tend to know more about the game than folks that grew up in Canada, and are most likely relatively new to the game. As such, the standards of what they expect to see on the pitch is higher. That doesn't mean that the expectation you need a Barca/Milan/Man Utd quality out there, but a team that at least looks like a professional team and can handle the basics. TFC did not deliver on that.

To give an example, I have one particularity family member from the UK that grew up watching a very mediocre mid division side in the 60's, 70's and 80's. This was not a high standard of football. When TFC appeared, he was excited to have a local team to support. When I started taking him to games several years back, he was pretty much an utter disbelief that TFC were actually a professional team getting paid to play football. It's not the fact the team lost or anything like that. It was the fact that overall play was utterly inept. Players followed the ball around like kids do. No one held shape, no one played positionally properly, no one moved off the ball, that sort of stuff.

That's the kind of stuff I have seen first hand that has driven ex-pats away, not the lack of success. A lot of ex-pats support a team their whole life that never wins anything.

I agree with this 100 % , this was my reaction, not that we did not and do not win, but the football is mostly sub par in its most basic aspects.

[trane]

I agree about Winter, great idea, poor execution, and if that was the direction, why did we change it 100% when he was fired.

[Initial B]

I thought we changed direction because there was a power struggle between the 4-3-3 and the 4-4-2 camps ever since the Klinsmann recommendations. The 4-4-2 camp actively worked to ensure the failure of the total football philosophy at TFC, and eventually succeeded in replacing it.

You know, it strikes me that there has always been a struggle for identity with this club. It's like supporters of each of the different philosophies feel threatened when one style starts to dominate, and thus they all try and prevent that while jockeying for position to take its place.

[Marc"2L"]

That moment you realize you may have in fact burnt more bridges then TFC.....

grr, I need to go back to school.

[ManUtd4ever]

The plan given to Aron Winter was great, Aron Winter himself was not. He was rightfully fired.

The mistake the club made was not continuing on with the plan. We have to stop doing philosophical 180s every time we fire the coach.

Agreed. It's not about the particular formation that a manager prefers to employ, it's about stressing possession based football.

[Beach_Red]

The plan given to Aron Winter was great, Aron Winter himself was not. He was rightfully fired.

The mistake the club made was not continuing on with the plan. We have to stop doing philosophical 180s every time we fire the coach.

Was TFC ever really going to be able to sign enough players of enough quality to make that plan work? With the salary cap and domestic requirements the roster was always going to lack depth. A couple of injuries and the whole thing would come apart.

[ag futbol]

Was TFC ever really going to be able to sign enough players of enough quality to make that plan work? With the salary cap and domestic requirements the roster was always going to lack depth. A couple of injuries and the whole thing would come apart.

I don't think it's that big of an obstacle. Maybe it's not exactly the same, but I've seen RSL, Portland, Colorado this year, and to a lesser degree Dallas all play some sort of derivative of that style.

It can be done but you need the right people running the show.

[jabbronies]

Yeah, forget about local/cultural variations on the how the game is played being the reason why Italians (or any other expats) don't support TFC. We're not even there yet. The most basic level of play is still below what people are used to in footballing nations. That's the real problem. It's improving (I've watched a few Portland games where the fluidity of their play and movement was actually quite good to watch). But for the most part, MLS isn't playing the "beautiful game," no matter what local variation of it you are used to. And TFC even less so than the better teams.

Agreed.
We can barley do the most basic of things on the pitch 50%.
Until that gets more consistent, it'll be hard to decide a style of play.

[Beach_Red]

I don't think it's that big of an obstacle. Maybe it's not exactly the same, but I've seen RSL, Portland, Colorado this year, and to a lesser degree Dallas all play some sort of derivative of that style.

It can be done but you need the right people running the show.

Maybe. But with each MLS roster made up of so many north American players, even with the right people running the show (which, of course, we didn't have) would there really be enough players to go around?

Of course, it doesn't matter anymore, but it's one of those things that drove some people away, I think. It sounded like they were pandering to fans who'd never heard of a salary cap or a draft or domestic requirements. Anyone who'd ever followed any other north American sport knew it wasn't going to work.

[ag futbol]

Maybe. But with each MLS roster made up of so many north American players, even with the right people running the show (which, of course, we didn't have) would there really be enough players to go around?

Of course, it doesn't matter anymore, but it's one of those things that drove some people away, I think. It sounded like they were pandering to fans who'd never heard of a salary cap or a draft or domestic requirements. Anyone who'd ever followed any other north American sport knew it wasn't going to work.

I don’t see the cap as an issue. The style of play isn’t necessarily dependent on your resources. It’s also relative. A free flowing style of play in MLS isn’t exactly world class, but it works within the less competitive environment we have in North America.

The other interesting thing is that because so many clubs go for a different style of play, attributes that you need to play a more possession style system are often overlooked in domestic players. There are tradeoffs involved in selecting any player and I just feel many MLS teams pigeon hole themselves into playing an unattractive physical style. Paul Mariner clearly couldn’t get past the fact that Jao Plata was 5’nothing and Nathan Sturgis isn’t the physical run-you-down type of midfielder. Colorado and RSL didn’t care because they understood how those types would fit into their system. Oddly enough (or maybe just predictably in Plata’s case), they both do well on their new teams. Mariner is an extreme example but not a unique case for this league. There are lots of coaches who still hold a watered down version of his mentality.

[Beach_Red]

I don’t see the cap as an issue. The style of play isn’t necessarily dependent on your resources. It’s also relative. A free flowing style of play in MLS isn’t exactly world class, but it works within the less competitive environment we have in North America.

The other interesting thing is that because so many clubs go for a different style of play, attributes that you need to play a more possession style system are often overlooked in domestic players. There are tradeoffs involved in selecting any player and I just feel many MLS teams pigeon hole themselves into playing an unattractive physical style. Paul Mariner clearly couldn’t get past the fact that Jao Plata was 5’nothing and Nathan Sturgis isn’t the physical run-you-down type of midfielder. Colorado and RSL didn’t care because they understood how those types would fit into their system. Oddly enough (or maybe just predictably in Plata’s case), they both do well on their new teams. Mariner is an extreme example but not a unique case for this league. There are lots of coaches who still hold a watered down version of his mentality.

Maybe you're right. I just think that the cap combined with the domestic requirement means the pool of available players is small and needs even better management. They have to draft well, they have to sign smart contracts, they have to get exactly the right DPs, they have to develop etc..

So for me that whole debacle was another TFC "burned bridge." It was the Raptors saying they were going to be the Miami Heat...

[Kaz]

you are saying they will refuse to support a team of the city they live in unless the city plays what you call "Italian" football over any other kind, and if it isn't that style damn them. Yet Italians in other countries can support English style football teams in other parts of the world. So the fact that Italians in Canada or Toronto can't is racists.

[Yohan]

Its ridiculous how many 'cast offs' end up being key players on an another team, and often for cheap wages. TFC needs to make scouting a priority. Why pay millions of bucks on a player when there are a lot of good players that'll fit your team in your own league?

[cwell]

I think you're right. I can imagine that the same would apply for a Canadian who grew up with hockey finding him or herself watching English team play. Even if the teams were comprised of expats, the standard of play and, important this, the experience in the stands would be disappointing.

Something I have enjoyed about watching games in England is the commentary that goes on among the spectators. They know what's going on, can compare it with a high standard, expect good technical and tactical play, applaud it if they see it and show their displeasure when the don't. And it's fun!

You aren't likely to get the same thing at an MLS game, unless you're fortunate. At least I haven't seen it.

What I have noticed over the years - people that grew up around football (usually ex-pats or 2nd generation Canadians in my experience) generally tend to know more about the game than folks that grew up in Canada, and are most likely relatively new to the game. As such, the standards of what they expect to see on the pitch is higher. That doesn't mean that the expectation you need a Barca/Milan/Man Utd quality out there, but a team that at least looks like a professional team and can handle the basics. TFC did not deliver on that.

To give an example, I have one particularity family member from the UK that grew up watching a very mediocre mid division side in the 60's, 70's and 80's. This was not a high standard of football. When TFC appeared, he was excited to have a local team to support. When I started taking him to games several years back, he was pretty much an utter disbelief that TFC were actually a professional team getting paid to play football. It's not the fact the team lost or anything like that. It was the fact that overall play was utterly inept. Players followed the ball around like kids do. No one held shape, no one played positionally properly, no one moved off the ball, that sort of stuff.

That's the kind of stuff I have seen first hand that has driven ex-pats away, not the lack of success. A lot of ex-pats support a team their whole life that never wins anything.

[ag futbol]

Maybe you're right. I just think that the cap combined with the domestic requirement means the pool of available players is small and needs even better management. They have to draft well, they have to sign smart contracts, they have to get exactly the right DPs, they have to develop etc..

So for me that whole debacle was another TFC "burned bridge." It was the Raptors saying they were going to be the Miami Heat...

Well this is just it. In the end you need someone who is competent and effective at what they do regardless of whether they think football is prancing around like a fairy or smashing the guy in the mouth.

I don't think anyone would care if Dominic Kinear was the head coach and TFC played physically through the midfield.

[pdogg]

Maybe you're right. I just think that the cap combined with the domestic requirement means the pool of available players is small and needs even better management. They have to draft well, they have to sign smart contracts, they have to get exactly the right DPs, they have to develop etc..

So for me that whole debacle was another TFC "burned bridge." It was the Raptors saying they were going to be the Miami Heat...

They need to hire the right people who can do the above, and stick with it for more than a season. The Winter year 1 draft picks would now be coming into their 4th season with the club and be around 26 years old and into their peak years for MLS.

[Yohan]

Leiweke spoke of changing the culture of TFC, and the best way he can do that is to appoint a team president and a director of football (could be 2 different guys, or one guy with strong work ethic) who are the best talent identifiers in North America.

I'm more convinced every year that a Director of Football who knows what kind of football and tactical system the team should play and can identify the players who can play in that system is the most important position in an MLS team. Because of tight salary cap and weak scouting infrastructure, the guy who can identify another team's garbage player and use him to advantage in his system on a cheap or reasonable wage is crucial to winning. He works with a director of scouting who manages the network of scouts all over the world.

The coach implements the tactics, day to day training and is responsible for man management. If the coach can't get the results, another coach who can work in the system that the director of football wants to be used is hired. The manager should have an input on what players he wants, but ultimately, it is the director of football who makes the player signings. So, the coach becomes more replaceable, but the director of football is not.

And there are only 2 guys in MLS right now that have proven to be best talent identifiers in MLS. Bruce Arena and Garth Lagerwey. If I was Leiweke, I'd do whatever I can to grab one of the two. And if Nelsen can't work for these guys, turf him.

Otherwise if and when Nelsen gets turfed, (and it sounds like Nelsen don't plan on staying with TFC for too long, at least that's my vibe off of him) we're going to have another roster turnover when a new manager with new tactical system comes in. I hear Nelsen is on a 2 yr contract. Can anyone confirm?

[trane]

you are saying they will refuse to support a team of the city they live in unless the city plays what you call "Italian" football over any other kind, and if it isn't that style damn them. Yet Italians in other countries can support English style football teams in other parts of the world. So the fact that Italians in Canada or Toronto can't is racists.

Will you give up already. You do not like Italians, good for you, I will give you a medal. By the way Danny Dichio born and raised in England to Italian stock is a Milanista.

[trane]

Its ridiculous how many 'cast offs' end up being key players on an another team, and often for cheap wages. TFC needs to make scouting a priority. Why pay millions of bucks on a player when there are a lot of good players that'll fit your team in your own league?

I agree with this. The thing is you need to assess what your players can do, not what you wish they could do, and put them in the correct role to help them make the best of their abilities, I think we have constantly failed at that, and hence "cast offs" go of an succeed.

I agree with Beach Red we need an identety of some kind, the failure to find one on the pitch makes it hard to build, as the foundation is always shifting.

[trane]

I think you're right. I can imagine that the same would apply for a Canadian who grew up with hockey finding him or herself watching English team play. Even if the teams were comprised of expats, the standard of play and, important this, the experience in the stands would be disappointing.

Something I have enjoyed about watching games in England is the commentary that goes on among the spectators. They know what's going on, can compare it with a high standard, expect good technical and tactical play, applaud it if they see it and show their displeasure when the don't. And it's fun!

You aren't likely to get the same thing at an MLS game, unless you're fortunate. At least I haven't seen it.

I used to sit with a british guy at tfc games, we would laugh at the ineptitude at lease 5 to 10 a game. I think we both gave up our seasons after in year 5.

[Fort York Redcoat]

you are saying they will refuse to support a team of the city they live in unless the city plays what you call "Italian" football over any other kind, and if it isn't that style damn them. Yet Italians in other countries can support English style football teams in other parts of the world. So the fact that Italians in Canada or Toronto can't is racists.

It's a style of football. It's a preference or a bias. There are exceptions to your generalization and it's offensive. Take a step back. There are plenty of people that avoid the local team regardless if they play the style they enjoy because of the skill level.

Again I'll say you can't shame people into caring.