Good quote (from Juan Arango @JuanG_Arango11 mins):
"Many go to Major League Soccer thinking it will be easy and end up not even earning a spot. MLS is not the end of a career"
Luiz Felipe Scolari on the competitive nature of MLS and Júlio César’s arrival to Toronto FC
Makes sense. Could see major changes in roster rules next season.Originally Posted by MartinUtd
Even though I'd prefer a loan outside of MLS, there is a certain amount of risk involved with that, mainly they could dangle a lot more $$ in front of him to entice a move.
RE: Issey - This could be be an "X" factor signing if we make it..very underestimated individual on this board it seems. (likely because of the unknown factor). The following was from TFC's game report vs DC. Any further word? Anything from him at media day?
Issey Nakajima-Farran:
Tonight trialist Issey Nakajima-Farran owned the wings, it didn’t matter if it was the left or the right, when he was on flank, he took the space and made it his own. The Canadian International could have ended the night with a pair of goals if it wasn’t for solid goalkeeping from DC United keeper Joe Willis.
I'd sign him and dump Lambe if need be in a second.
i dont care where laba goes so long as we get to keep him in the end
For sure.
http://www.soccerbyives.net/2014/02/...s-toronto.html
Apparently Big Phil confirmed JC loan
http://www.mlssoccer.com/worldcup/20...ulio-cesar-wil
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
The post directly said stats don't mean anything.. yet you say "well said" to a post that say stats say that in FIFA individual stats, Laba is great..everything well said in a nutshell ..........but as much as it breaks my heart , I think we're screwed......and like many I hope Laba is well accounted for AND he doesn't turn against us.......wish the international spot was the only barrier......(by Lambe)......I could get hate mail for this, but I'd even trade Dike for any way of keeping Laba . AND he's definitely up and coming . But alas it's apples and oranges.
Why do you feel stats that show Laba is a strong player is good but Stats that show he has no actual effect on the teams performance mean nothing?
That is what counts.. you can be the best player in the world but if you have no effect on what the out come of the game is.. well then bring in the player that is more likely to have an effect.
Last edited by Kaz; 02-11-2014 at 12:35 PM.
^ expecting an influx of Brasilians soon.
Your stats indicate that over the course of a season Laba will have a goal differential affect on the team of -12 ((including the projected 2 goals he would get + (-5 GD x2 (for a full season))
That is better than most strikers we've ever had on the team (ie. +12 goals per year)
Not that I think these stats mean anything, but just playing devils advocate with the stats that you presented.
A 12 goal differential for having Laba on your team is pretty good in my books.
umm look again.. we had 1.31 goals scored against us per game while laba was on the field
We have 1.41 goals scored against us with out him... with a game where we lost 4-0 (which is an oddity in the sample size)
that is 4/5 goals a season. not 12. and if you account for the oddity in the sample size it's actually even.
We scored only 0.69 goals a game while Laba was on the field. and scored 1.05 goals without him on the field.
That means over a season we could score as many as 12 goals fewer while he was on the field.
Again there was a oddity of a 4-1 score in a win.. accounting for that it is still about a 6 goal lost over the season.
again those stats say we score 0.69 goals a game while Laba was on the field and 1.05 goals when he wasn't... that more goals when Laba is away.
Laba could cost us 12 goals by the numbers over a season Of course as I said in my first post other factors might account for that... and that is why I said he is a statistical wash.. Dunfield or Hall had the same general effect on the game
Last edited by Kaz; 02-11-2014 at 12:40 PM.
For those Portuguese speakers out there, here is the video. If im not mistaken ( i speak spanish but i can understand them slightly) he wad being asked if there were any concerns of Julio playing in the 'American league' because it isn't very strong or technical. Also, the guy to the Scolari's right (assistant?) makes the point that while it may not be as technically strong a league, what is important here is that it is quite competitive.
http://globoesporte.globo.com/videos...-deus/3139892/
Yeah, I should have been more clear. I was cherry picking your GA numbers only (since offence isn't his forte/prerogative):
With Laba
GA 21
W/O Laba
GA 26
(-5GA x 2 for full season plus two goals = -12GD)
As we can see, numbers can be used to explain/extrapolate and justify anything.
In my opinion I don't think it's particularly useful to use team stats to justify or explain anything about one particular player. To me its more relevant to use team stats to talk about teams, and player stats to talk about players. IE. passing completion %, shots on target, blocked shots, goals per minute, assists per minute, crosses, turnovers, etc...
That's interesting but probably should weight those stats. As much as it is an honour to wear the Maple Leaf, the team itself isn't exactly ranked with the likes of Brazil or England or the USA.
According to wiki, Seattle has 13 with 7 capped for the USA. Quite a few have at least 9 or 10.
The other guy in the video is Carlos Alberto Parreira, technical coordinator. He briefly was the coach of the MetroStars in 1997, still stays in touch with people in NY/NJ. Charlie Stillitano mentions him from time to time on the Football Show on SiriusXM.
Last edited by Detroit_TFC; 02-11-2014 at 01:02 PM.
Well when everyone is calling him the second coming and suggesting dropping Gilberto over Laba it is useful. In fact it is more useful because the argument is that Laba is a better player and will have more of an effect on the middle field then other players. The team stats while we have Laba a Defensive Mid, show that with other players with lesser stats in the same position, they have the same over all effect on the teams performance as Laba.
Keep in mind I used total stats, again I went over it... that is 18 games without Laba to 16 Games with Laba. That is why I used the per game numbers.
Again we had an anomaly in we both won a game 4-1 and lost a game 4-0 while Laba wasn't on the field. Which skew the numbers in such a small sample size
If you adjust for those games
You have 16 games with and 16 Without.
GA is 21 for both.
GF is 11 with 15 without.
Which actually helps my point in that he had little effect on our offence (maybe even hurting it).. and no effect on our defence (no statistical effect) But I did my best to let the numbers speak, and not go out of my way to bias them.
Gilberto has the potential to have a significant effect on our offence.
Our Offence last season is where we hurt the most.
As such if you have to choose between a player that had no effect statistically (as in other lesser players can achieve the same result) and a player that could potentially solve or help solve the issue on another part of the field.. you choose the player that can help up front.
ideally you try to keep both.. but the praise Laba has gotten here has been totally from the heart and not the head, as we didn't do any worse without him and any effect he did have will be adjusted by Bradley.. because in the end the team is effectively replacing Laba with Bradley. Bradley was the last in, Laba is in a similar spot. If it was Ronaldo not Bradley then Gilberto would be sent back to Brazil I'm sure.
I'd also like to point out, the Team stats were perfectly fine to you when you misread them trying to make them support your feeling on Laba, but the moment they no longer did they became invalidated to you. You even admitted to trying to cherry pick the stats the make Laba look good. That is because you are working on a emotional desire to put Laba on a pedestal. If the stats support Laba having a strong effect on the game, then I'd push for him to stay. They just don't, it's a team sport, if him on the field has no effect on the team performance.
I'd rather have a larger sample size as I think 16-18 games is too small..
In the end I want to see him in Red, it's a shame to see him go on loan.. but it's best for the team right now and we need as much firepower as we can get up front.
Last edited by Kaz; 02-11-2014 at 01:20 PM.
I am just saying that using player stats might be more useful to determining his worth in the league and to his team.
Ie. Comparing Laba's player stats to some of the better players in the league and extrapolating from there.
https://twitter.com/24thminute/statu...03198640930819
He's gone according to Duane Rollins. Real shame.
Damn you, LAMBE!!
You are absuletely bang on...Big Phil also said that even when not playing he is in great shape and very flexible and that was shown in the Chile vs Brazil game here in Toronto.
EVIL'S I TELLS YA....THEY'S EVILS!!!
How?
If Laba has great stats (and he does) but the Team sees a drastic drop off of goals scored, a drop in points per game and no real change in the number of goals scored against, then when it has other less statistically boosted players, and you have to drop someone.. do you drop the player that has no effect on the over all team performance... or the player that was brought in to help fix the issues up front?
Laba has good individual stats.. but his position can be played by Hall and it would have no impact on the game.. and the team stats show that it might actually be an improvement.
Laba played 16 games now I haven't delved into the offensive stats and I don't intend to.. but what happens if the only real change between us scoring one goal a game on average, and scoring .69 goals on average is Laba.
If someone really delved into the stats and found that Laba was a/the major contributing factor to TFC loosing out on a possible 4-8 points last season, do his personal stats being good/great still matter?
Last edited by Kaz; 02-11-2014 at 02:00 PM.
But the stats wouldn't show that. A guy plays statistically well and the team loses, you look at the statistical contribution of the other players first, you don't assume he's the catalyst to them playing badly. That's not logical.
But they suggest that... we scored .36 fewer goals with Laba on the field, that is about 6 goals difference over those 16 games.
Even adjusting for a the two odd games that may have skewed the stats.. it is still 3 goals.
If he isn't sending the ball to the right people resulting in fewer offensive options then he would be the major factor as to why with no other significant team changes (being as there are 8 games at the beginning of the season and 10 games at the end of the season without him) it may actually be him that is the result...
Now I don't know for sure.. I'm meerly saying it is a possibility (one that I'm really surprised by I didn't expect these numbers to look like this)
As I've said the sample size is too small to draw a direct conclusion.. but if Laba is picking the wrong people to pass too or is passing back instead of forward or any number of thing that would keep his stats strong but his impact low.. it is something to consider.
Again I have no desire to go into it that big, I neither care that much, nor have any desire to do that..
The point I have been trying to make is that Laba isn't indispensable particularly in the DM role which other lesser players are fully able to perform in while having no significant impact on the performance of the team.. (at least last year) And that suggesting Gilberto should go over Laba is silly.
Last edited by Kaz; 02-11-2014 at 02:24 PM.
I think you're right that people are a little hasty in judging the value of Gilberto. We have no idea if he will be good or not, but it seems like people have shown faith in our other off-season acquisitions so why not put some faith in this one?
Making statistical arguments about soccer is difficult. I believe there is validity in using stats, but at the same time this isn't baseball and the sport doesn't as easily lend itself to statistics. It's very difficult for us, as laymen, to make statistical calls about the sport of soccer. We are not in a position to be well informed, and making matters worse you have people - in the press and elsewhere - who readily bastardize the statistics with their own warped understanding of it.
Last edited by ag futbol; 02-11-2014 at 02:38 PM.
I don't disagree, but people had no issue with it, when one used the individual stats (like one would playing FIFA 14) to make the argument that Laba is great and the best in MLS or near the best...
Though one can't deny even adjusting for two odd games... based on the same factors that people use to say Laba is the greatest thing since slice bread, also shows Jeremy Hall has no significant downside on the over all performance of the team even if he isn't as good individually.
A team sport like Soccer is not about individual players it's about the whole. In this case Bradley and Osorio/Hall/Bekker maybe just as effective in the out come of a game as if it were Bradley and Laba.
As such the potential impact of Gilberto over Weid is much greater then that of the known impact of Laba over Hall. Being as you can't win games without goals that makes more practical sense then any other options, which I think most people agree with.
But TFC fans tend to be emotional about players and inflate their value.
Good find, thanks. Very good to hear them defend Julio Cesar's decision. Coming from those two, that should shut a lot of people up.The "other guy" is Carlos Alberto Parreira, Brazil's current technical director, among a shit of other clubs and a few periods with Brazil's national team as a coach, he is _the_ world cup winning coach with Brazil in 1994. He definitely knows a thing or two about what he's talking about.
So Gilberto is saying he plans to score 25 goals this year. If he does that, no one will be doubting the Laba decision. If not, well, there's Darren Mattocks the 2nd.
Oh right Perreira! I knew he looked familiar, he coached South Africa last World Cup if I remember correctly.
Where did he say that? Ballsy, but to be fair his resume makes it a more credible statement then Mattocks' ever was.
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