Letter to Mr. Lieweke

[JonO]

It was just a dumb comment to make given the situation.

I agree it was not a well thought out comment, but if Molinaro (sorry to keep dragging you into this) says it was a mountain out of a molehill then I tend to believe him. I do think that as supporters we tend to get out feathers ruffled wayyyy to easily. Also, there is not much more Nelsen can say other than wait until January. We all knew this year would be total shit. He has no experience he can point to and say "trust me". That's not his fault, but it is what it is. The roster has been set for a complete overhaul. Now it's time for Nelsen (and Lieweke) to deliver. No excuses.... It is going to be a VERY interesting off-season.

I have no issue with Rachel, the person, but she's not the right choice for this club. Don't forget: they built the brand of TFC on supporters. On the atmosphere. Instead they've done nothing but piss us all off from day one. Rachel is pure fluff, zero football knowledge of passion, and is really only there because she wants a career in front of the camera. It's pure fluff! I want someone who knows the game inside and out. Someone who is truly passionate about the sport, and someone who actually moves in supporter circles, travels, and has a real history with the team from day one. Don't forget, he's one of our most popular capos.

Well a competition was a really stupid way to handle the whole thing. I don't think anyone was surprised with the selection. I would prefer everything you mention as well, but I think TFC got what they wanted. Ideally they should have kept them both as they probably would have complemented each other, but I think the front office was too bloated as it was. No need for the two of them AND Asif.

btw it'll always be Skydome for me.

Wait... it's not Skydome any more?

[Canary10]

I can actually deal with the team losing. I don't feel I have a "right" to a winning team, and winning is actually quite difficult, even with all the money, smarts, right people, etc.

What kills me is the multitude of purely head-scratching decisions that make everyone (TFC fans and even fans of other teams in our league) say what the fuck are they doing in Toronto? The Urruti trade was one of those to me. Just get some fucking competent leadership that I don't feel embarrassed about, get the team on an even keel, have some sort of identity and team playing style, be serious about football and not all the stupid flash surrounding it, and I'll stay in the seats. If we could win on top of that, great.

That's what I would say in a letter to Lieweke.

[Phil]

I can actually deal with the team losing. I don't feel I have a "right" to a winning team, and winning is actually quite difficult, even with all the money, smarts, right people, etc.

What kills me is the multitude of purely head-scratching decisions that make everyone (TFC fans and even fans of other teams in our league) say what the fuck are they doing in Toronto? The Urruti trade was one of those to me. Just get some fucking competent leadership that I don't feel embarrassed about, get the team on an even keel, have some sort of identity and team playing style, be serious about football and not all the stupid flash surrounding it, and I'll stay in the seats. If we could win on top of that, great.

That's what I would say in a letter to Lieweke.

I understand the Urruti thing though. Payne leaving on those terms, it seems obvious that TL couldn't run the interference needed to kill the deal as its strings pre dated him and Nelsen obviously didn't want the player nor desire the effort needed to develop him with the type of team and play he envisions. It seems clear that the disagreement was about starting lineups, player selection and growth priorities.

I totally get that a guy like Dike will do better in our system as a strong pressure based striker vs. a finesse guy that needs percise service. The downside is that they were pretty drastic in dealing with the change of direction - Nelsen given the golden 'atta boy', Payne shown the door, Urruti move and Bez hire.

I can only hope that the focus is on stability once they get through this off seasons other decisions - Danny K, Frei and Ecks.

[Canary10]

I understand the Urruti thing though. Payne leaving on those terms, it seems obvious that TL couldn't run the interference needed to kill the deal as its strings pre dated him and Nelsen obviously didn't want the player nor desire the effort needed to develop him with the type of team and play he envisions. It seems clear that the disagreement was about starting lineups, player selection and growth priorities.

I totally get that a guy like Dike will do better in our system as a strong pressure based striker vs. a finesse guy that needs percise service. The downside is that they were pretty drastic in dealing with the change of direction - Nelsen given the golden 'atta boy', Payne shown the door, Urruti move and Bez hire.

I can only hope that the focus is on stability once they get through this off seasons other decisions - Danny K, Frei and Ecks.

I get that too, but it looks like pure nonsense. It wouldn't have happened in the first place if the club had competent leadership.

[ensco]

The league should have stopped the Silva deal. If I had to guess, that is what actually got Payne fired.

It just isn't fair to us, what has happened here.

[Phil]

TL was all over him when talking to me during the RSL game. He said that Silva had gone from the coveted player for every team to a stalled development here in Toronto.

At that point I would question coaching and tactics, but it seemed to be laid at the feet of the player. In a way Ensco is on to something as his sucess in DC highlited the incompetence on Paynes level for not rating the player and sendning him out. It seems clear that Payne was trying to fight Nelsen on starting lineup and team selection.

[jloome]

Change the team's "culture" with the media, by running a more professional organization, and interacting with more transparency. Don't change it by flexing your muscles to get more astroturfers in the media, and by shutting out prominent critics - even if you think their criticism is unfair.

Negative press isn't the problem - it's a symptom.

- Scott

No, I've worked with NA sports guys for two decades and this is just wrong. They are clearly and systemically biased against soccer and think it's not a North American sport

[Yohan]

The league should have stopped the Silva deal. If I had to guess, that is what actually got Payne fired.

It just isn't fair to us, what has happened here.

the league isn't going into step in for trades like this. they only get involved for some DP signings and that's about it.

[Canary10]

TL was all over him when talking to me during the RSL game. He said that Silva had gone from the coveted player for every team to a stalled development here in Toronto.

At that point I would question coaching and tactics, but it seemed to be laid at the feet of the player. In a way Ensco is on to something as his sucess in DC highlited the incompetence on Paynes level for not rating the player and sendning him out. It seems clear that Payne was trying to fight Nelsen on starting lineup and team selection.

How do we know Nelsen was not involved in sending him out? Nelsen never seemed to know where to play him, and looked to have given up on him to me.

[BuSaPuNk]

TL was all over him when talking to me during the RSL game. He said that Silva had gone from the coveted player for every team to a stalled development here in Toronto.

At that point I would question coaching and tactics, but it seemed to be laid at the feet of the player. In a way Ensco is on to something as his sucess in DC highlited the incompetence on Paynes level for not rating the player and sendning him out. It seems clear that Payne was trying to fight Nelsen on starting lineup and team selection.

I think that is what a lot of the back and forth with TL happened. Think that he really wanted Ryan to have complete control of the players brought in and team selection and I agree with that.

The manger should be bringing in his type of players to play his style of football. Now the only thing that sucks about that is if his style is shit and if he can't get the proper personel in place were right back at square one again.

However it's growing pains with a new coach with little experience. I'm pretty sure if we had a guy with experience like a Bradley or someone we would be more willing to give them the benefit of a year or two.

[MartinUtd]

Do people actually watch TFC promotional videos? I gave up in 1st year after seeing that 7 year old conducting interviews. Wasn't he some exec's kid too? Just goes to show you how half assed this whole thing has been. I guess MTV is a step up from that, but I'd really like to go in more of a "Street Cents" direction.

[ag futbol]

The league should have stopped the Silva deal. If I had to guess, that is what actually got Payne fired.

It just isn't fair to us, what has happened here.

You sure about that? I've heard some grumblings about his work ethic and desire to play the AM spot (which we never use).

Could easily see an inexperienced rookie coach saying "I can't work with this guy" and asking for him to be sent away.

We seem to be worshipping the cult of 'hard work' again, of which silva is not a member.

[ag futbol]

Do people actually watch TFC promotional videos? I gave up in 1st year after seeing that 7 year old conducting interviews. Wasn't he some exec's kid too? Just goes to show you how half assed this whole thing has been. I guess MTV is a step up from that, but I'd really like to go in more of a "Street Cents" direction.

They had one good one for a short time. Who remembers the guy who was jumping out from behind bushes and out of trash cans on queens quay to interview players? It was cliche but extremely funny none the less

[tfcleeds]

What I find most upsetting, is that this season just feels like a 'lost season', even moreso than any others. We all knew we were going to suck this year, but with Payne and Nelsen(who I had hope in at the beginning) coming in, 2013 was supposed to be the beginning of the rebuild, not next season. Now with TL coming in, Payne being given his walking papers, it's like this past season might as well have not even happened, given we will be at square one once again next season, when we really should have been a quarter or halfway there. Sure, they did some good things, like create much-needed cap room, but that's really about it.

[Carts]

What I find most upsetting, is that this season just feels like a 'lost season', even moreso than any others. We all knew we were going to suck this year, but with Payne and Nelsen(who I had hope in at the beginning) coming in, 2013 was supposed to be the beginning of the rebuild, not next season. Now with TL coming in, Payne being given his walking papers, it's like this past season might as well have not even happened, given we will be at square one once again next season, when we really should have been a quarter or halfway there. Sure, they did some good things, like create much-needed cap room, but that's really about it.

Agreed...

I mean, "clearing cap room" should be called a Tuesday in January - not the entire 2013 season...

[ensco]

You sure about that? I've heard some grumblings about his work ethic and desire to play the AM spot (which we never use).

Could easily see an inexperienced rookie coach saying "I can't work with this guy" and asking for him to be sent away.

We seem to be worshipping the cult of 'hard work' again, of which silva is not a member.

I am sure that the Silva trade was the worst, most lopsided trade (in terms of being lopsided at the time of the deal) in the 7 years I have been following MLS. Domestics with flair/talent are so rare/valuable in MLS. Even if Silva winds up being a journeyman, it was lopsided. Even if we had signed Forlan, it was lopsided.

Listen, sometimes a player has to be a target man (ie Koevermans or Saborio). But lots of elite players (eg Messi or Ronaldo or Rooney or Forlan or Donovan) can play multiple positions, and Silva is one of those. Why is that so hard to cope with here?

[Yohan]

I am sure that the Silva trade was the worst, most lopsided trade (in terms of being lopsided at the time of the deal) in the 7 years I have been following MLS. Domestics with flair/talent are so rare/valuable in MLS. Even if Silva winds up being a journeyman, it was lopsided. Even if we had signed Forlan, it was lopsided.

Listen, sometimes a player has to be a target man (ie Koevermans or Saborio). But lots of elite players (eg Messi or Ronaldo or Rooney or Forlan or Donovan) can play multiple positions, and Silva is one of those. Why is that so hard to cope with here?

clearly you never heard of Cam Weaver for Chris Wondolowski trade

Jamison Olave and Fabian Espindola were traded to NY for allocation also. Will Johnson to Portland for allocation

trades like this happens often in MLS

[ManUtd4ever]

I am sure that the Silva trade was the worst, most lopsided trade (in terms of being lopsided at the time of the deal) in the 7 years I have been following MLS. Domestics with flair/talent are so rare/valuable in MLS. Even if Silva winds up being a journeyman, it was lopsided. Even if we had signed Forlan, it was lopsided.

Listen, sometimes a player has to be a target man (ie Koevermans or Saborio). But lots of elite players (eg Messi or Ronaldo or Rooney or Forlan or Donovan) can play multiple positions, and Silva is one of those. Why is that so hard to cope with here?

Agreed, or at the very least, it's on par with giving away Sam Cronin for Al Location...

[Yohan]

Agreed, or at the very least, it's on par with giving away Sam Cronin for Al Location...

or Todd Dunivant for allocation...

[ManUtd4ever]

or Todd Dunivant for allocation...

Yup. Sigh...

[v00d00daddy]

Note to Nelsen,

Nobody related to TFC has any sense of humour, esp your Kiwi-Brit sarcastic ones! You'll get lynched!

This isn't Europe, I'm from there, I know. Football is a family event here.

Let me know when any team, in any sport, in any league in North America faces REAL questions or has to deal with dangerous supporters, who will fight, burn, march, and disable entire neighborhoods when they are not happy - not cry about it on a supporters forum cuz you thought that when Nelsen said SSH should be made to pay double, he was actually serious.

I still can't believe how much attention that statement is getting. Most journos in attendance said that the comment was tongue-in-cheek and didn't come across well in print. This includes Molinaro, who we know is not a fan of Nelsen. There are many valid criticisms of Nelsen, but I don't think that an absolute disregard for the fans is one of them.

Fair enough guys. A player (I refuse to call him a coach yet) who was told about a season ticket holder's decision to give up his tickets replies with a tongue in cheek comment about people having to pay double after he makes his super duper January moves and some are happy to accept it as tongue in cheek.

Not me. He has no business being tongue in cheek about anything. His team fucking sucks. His choices suck. He has no resume to rely on from the past...so his answer should have been "well that's his decision. We're working to do better to avoid that kind of thing happening"

I'm sorry. This guy has ZERO to fall back on. The man who gave him the vote of confidence in making him a coach is gone. Nobody find it odd that Nelsen survived that?

This club is fucked from top to bottom. And everywhere in between. It's long overdue that ALL supporters, casuals and hardcores alike, adopt the idea that this club has to put up or shut up.

Nelsen doesn't shut up. He whines about officiating. He promises wonderful change in the near future. He insists that his work and team deserve better and have been unlucky.

The team has 5 wins. Right on pace for the shit they've had for the last 2 years. So we know he's not "putting up" or "shutting up"

But I'm glad some people find it funny. They'll be dancing alone in the southeast corner while security guards and the ballboys outnumber the rest of the people in the stadium if this keeps up.

[OgtheDim]

Nelsen has to be watched to be understood.

Reading his comments in print or on line doesn't show what he is trying to say.

[v00d00daddy]

Nelsen has to be watched to be understood.

Reading his comments in print or on line doesn't show what he is trying to say.

I watched him say it on the TFC website. I get that he was "joking". I just don't care to hear his jokes. Especially when I believe that the comment was classic pussy passive aggression. To me he hid the thought of "well people who have had enough of this club can fuck off" in a neat little "tongue in cheek" moment.

Get him alone and a beer in him and I'd bet a bunch load that he genuinely feels that way.

[mastermixer]

Fair enough guys. A player (I refuse to call him a coach yet) who was told about a season ticket holder's decision to give up his tickets replies with a tongue in cheek comment about people having to pay double after he makes his super duper January moves and some are happy to accept it as tongue in cheek.

Not me. He has no business being tongue in cheek about anything. His team fucking sucks. His choices suck. He has no resume to rely on from the past...so his answer should have been "well that's his decision. We're working to do better to avoid that kind of thing happening"

I'm sorry. This guy has ZERO to fall back on. The man who gave him the vote of confidence in making him a coach is gone. Nobody find it odd that Nelsen survived that?

This club is fucked from top to bottom. And everywhere in between. It's long overdue that ALL supporters, casuals and hardcores alike, adopt the idea that this club has to put up or shut up.

Nelsen doesn't shut up. He whines about officiating. He promises wonderful change in the near future. He insists that his work and team deserve better and have been unlucky.

The team has 5 wins. Right on pace for the shit they've had for the last 2 years. So we know he's not "putting up" or "shutting up"

But I'm glad some people find it funny. They'll be dancing alone in the southeast corner while security guards and the ballboys outnumber the rest of the people in the stadium if this keeps up.

Agree with all of this. I find it unsettling that Nelsen and Lieweke are banking the future of this team on two DP players they haven't signed yet, and more so have not seen play in a TFC jersey yet. It feels like when a poker player goes all in with a shitty hand because they have very little chips left to see if anyone will bite.

[ensco]

clearly you never heard of Cam Weaver for Chris Wondolowski trade

Jamison Olave and Fabian Espindola were traded to NY for allocation also. Will Johnson to Portland for allocation

trades like this happens often in MLS

Re Wondo, that wasn't nuts at the time of the deal.

Veterans are totally different. Trades for allocation happen all the time for them. Dero was one too, really. Because of the salaries.

But you can't find a deal like the one TFC did for a still highly rated player, making nothing, for allocation. Except maybe Mo's trade for Marvell in 2007, but that was a different league. Cheap, good, domestic talent is the only way, in the current MLS (Montreal is kind of an exception I guess, but the other 9 playoff teams would prove my point)

[ag futbol]

Nelsen has to be watched to be understood.

Reading his comments in print or on line doesn't show what he is trying to say.

Well I'm not sure where you're going with this one but the impression I get from watching him is he's still got a lot to learn. Doesn't look very comfortable in front of the camera at all. I have never seen him carry a presser from start to finish and come across with a consistent message.

The way he handles his pressers reminds me of the managers with yo-yo prem clubs that consistently fight fruitless battles with other teams that have superior resources. Every day is a crisis, the focus is always the next transfer window, and they are always talking about being aggrieved for whatever reason, usually because they feel they are a small club and don't garner the respect they should.

I'd be interested to hear what you think the message coming from him is because I can't seem to find one beyond the usual "wait for the next transfer window" stuff.

[Yohan]

Re Wondo, that wasn't nuts at the time of the deal.

Veterans are totally different. Trades for allocation happen all the time for them. Dero was one too, really. Because of the salaries.

But you can't find a deal like the one TFC did for a still highly rated player, making nothing, for allocation. Except maybe Mo's trade for Marvell in 2007!

challenge accepted!

and so simply. Juan Agudelo from Chivas USA to New England this season.

[ensco]

challenge accepted!

and so simply. Juan Agudelo from Chivas USA to New England this season.

Yeah, you're right, that was bad. He's actually a lot like Silva. League should have stopped that too!

[Yohan]

Yeah, you're right, that was bad. He's actually a lot like Silva. League should have stopped that too!

except Agudelo is 20, while Silva is 24, soon to be 25. so Silva is more like a journeyman than a prospect. and Agudelo was on final year of his contract

[Shakes McQueen]

No, I've worked with NA sports guys for two decades and this is just wrong. They are clearly and systemically biased against soccer and think it's not a North American sport

If there was evidence of this specific bias, in specific pieces, that would be different. Just complaining about how "negative" the media is, is not the same. We get bad press because our team sucks, has sucked forever, and because we've been running such a lousy organization, that it's almost become the stuff of legend.

95% of the negative pieces I read or watch, deal exclusively with these facts - just like how the Maple Leafs used to get shit on for their lousy organization, in the heydey of Peddie. The media doesn't exist to manufacture hope and sunshine for us; that job belongs to the team.

- Scott