Payne is out

[Sec222_fan]

So basically Payne is out but Nelson gets a pass because Tim likes him and when asked if he would prefer well known DP's or lesser known DP's, his answer must have been, "Get me some guys I've heard of before so we can win!". Does that make him the right coach going forward? Again, I'm not against Nelson but if Payne is out, any new GM should be able to pick his man. Isn't that a critical part of a GM's role.
Payne didn't spend the war-chest he was given so he's out. What transfer windows are open that will allow us to sign anybody before January? I hope we're not after guys that are not locked to a contract because what would that say about their talent if no one else was after them?

[flatpicker]

So basically Payne is out but Nelson gets a pass because Tim likes him and when asked if he would prefer well known DP's or lesser known DP's, his answer must have been, "Get me some guys I've heard of before so we can win!". Does that make him the right coach going forward? Again, I'm not against Nelson but if Payne is out, any new GM should be able to pick his man. Isn't that a critical part of a GM's role.
Payne didn't spend the war-chest he was given so he's out. What transfer windows are open that will allow us to sign anybody before January? I hope we're not after guys that are not locked to a contract because what would that say about their talent if no one else was after them?

I think Nelson has been frustrated because he just wants players brought in that can help the team... and not a lot has happened in that regard. He hasn't had a lot to work with this season, so I think it would be a little premature to let him go. It's fair to give him more time with a more skilled group of players and then judge his ability to make them into a competitive team.

[Sec222_fan]

I think Nelson has been frustrated because he just wants players brought in that can help the team... and not a lot has happened in that regard. He hasn't had a lot to work with this season, so I think it would be a little premature to let him go. It's fair to give him more time with a more skilled group of players and then judge his ability to make them into a competitive team.

I still don't understand how TL thinks this will all be solved by January which will be decision time for SSH? Where will these DP's come from?

[TOBOR !]

...It's really, really not that fucking complicated. Guys who were plodder footballers with minimal schooling or other outside interests in life manage to do it all the time. It only becomes complicated when the politics and egos common to large corporate environments get involved.

Interesting. You've made me think that we shouldn't be pursuing South American talent, simply because of all the headaches caused by club, player, and agent egos, as well as the need for them all to make money off the deal. A deal can unravel at any time. Asia and Central America (less Mexico) may be where it's at. I'd add Africa in there as well, but that seems mostly miss than hit.

Of course, that would require a decent scouting network.

[ag futbol]

Interesting. You've made me think that we shouldn't be pursuing South American talent, simply because of all the headaches caused by club, player, and agent egos, as well as the need for them all to make money off the deal. A deal can unravel at any time. Asia and Central America (less Mexico) may be where it's at. I'd add Africa in there as well, but that seems mostly miss than hit.

Of course, that would require a decent scouting network.

I don't think it's necessarily a south america thing as much as it is casting too small of a net and being stuck on certain names. It's still the primary feeder for this league along with central america.

[Yohan]

That's why this window was such an epic failure. There were so many needs to address and Payne just didn't do it. Pursuing only two of seven DPS that have been OFFERED to you strikes me as arrogant and foolish.

In fact, I hope Lieweke realizes that depending upon DPs who are offered to you is bad all the way around. We should have a very long shortlist, like 20 or 30 guys worldwide. With the money they're willing to pay, it's entirely feasible to have that many potential suitors.

There are more than 80,000 professional or semi-pro footballers worldwide. We could be looking at a DP From the J-League, from Sweden or Germany, from Colombia, from Albania. Who gives a shit as long as they're good. And when the job has to be done, it has to be done. Payne didn't do it.

And it's the new trend in MLS. Cheap(er) DPs that produces the goods. Guys like Valeri, the Hernan the DM guy in Montreal, Federico Higuain, etc. Or go proven, IE Wondo, Javier Morales.

Big names are nice, but cheap DPs get same amount of production. And you can get a lot of them in their 20s, so you can build your team around them. They'd also likely be hungrier, and want to use MLS as stepping stone for Europe.

As for attracting DP calibre players, MLS is probably the most stable league in terms of finance. No risk of your cheque bouncing here. And excellent quality of life for them and their family. Plus with every EPL/La Liga/Serie A/Bundesliga player that plays in MLS, better the quality of league is, and these big name players talk to their mates back in Europe about how good it is to play in MLS, more players get interested.

Seriously, he couldn't fucking shortlist 20 guys, then offer then each at least six or seven million dollars a year until one said 'yes'? (EDIT: I'll add that I've interviewed plenty of pro athletes. They know the average career window is about four years. THey'll take the money and wont' give a shit if it's Toronto instead of LA. When Dempsey said he was interested in MLS, his terms according to SI's grant wahl were that it had to be LA, Toronto or Seattle. He wants the Atmosphere.)

It's really, really not that fucking complicated. Guys who were plodder footballers with minimal schooling or other outside interests in life manage to do it all the time. It only becomes complicated when the politics and egos common to large corporate environments get involved.

Man, Dempsey must have not seen a TFC game in a while... Our atmosphere is maybe like 10th in MLS or something. Many clubs have surpassed us, and even plays like Dallas, Houston, Colorado are better organized and they are just as loud as we are nowadays.

[TOBOR !]

I don't think it's necessarily a south america thing as much as it is casting too small of a net and being stuck on certain names. It's still the primary feeder for this league along with central america.

maybe it doesn't have to be.. scratch that - I guess it does by proximity. However, given the trouble extricating players of worth from South America (as we've experienced) and the coin-toss you get with aging/middling Euro stars (also witnessed first hand), why not cast our gaze elsewhere ? I'm not speaking specifically about DPs, but decent squad players who might be happy to come here.

[Sullivan]

I still don't understand how TL thinks this will all be solved by January which will be decision time for SSH? Where will these DP's come from?

Spot on.
He'll have to tap-up to ensure a January signing - most windows don't open till the 1st, how does he expect to close a deal concurrent to a period in which supporters evaluate roster moves?

[shwade]

So is it a given that it'll be someone with mLs experience or might he pull a Ruud Gullit?

[Yohan]

So is it a given that it'll be someone with mLs experience or might he pull a Ruud Gullit?

i'd be very shocked if he got a non MLS GM. either the coach or the GM has to be MLS savvy. since Nelsen isn't, the GM has to be

[ag futbol]

maybe it doesn't have to be.. scratch that - I guess it does by proximity. However, given the trouble extricating players of worth from South America (as we've experienced) and the coin-toss you get with aging/middling Euro stars (also witnessed first hand), why not cast our gaze elsewhere ? I'm not speaking specifically about DPs, but decent squad players who might be happy to come here.

I dunno, I still think our scouting department has lacked something. South America isn't as hard of a nut to crack as we make it seem. Not every player has to be Laba or Urruti. Most of the effective players in this league have nowhere near that profile.

Javier Morales was playing for a nothing club with a meddling career, many other guys were in similar scenarios. It's not always about high caliber talent as much as it can be adding simple pieces clubs would have no trouble parting with.

[69Chevy396]

I dunno, I still think our scouting department has lacked something. South America isn't as hard of a nut to crack as we make it seem. Not every player has to be Laba or Urruti. Most of the effective players in this league have nowhere near that profile.

Javier Morales was playing for a nothing club with a meddling career, many other guys were in similar scenarios. It's not always about high caliber talent as much as it can be adding simple pieces clubs would have no trouble parting with.

Hope I am wrong, but Urruti has shown nothing so far. I get it he was unfit. But a 21 year old pro athlete does not need a month to get in shape.

[jloome]

Hope I am wrong, but Urruti has shown nothing so far. I get it he was unfit. But a 21 year old pro athlete does not need a month to get in shape.

I think his movement was really good in the last game. He didn't get long to show it, but he had a couple of open looks if someone had fed him the ball. I'd give him some time. I don't know that he'll go anywhere -- his build is very slight -- but it's too early to say.

I will say that until now, I have never had the impression that our scouting department is doing its job.

It sounds arrogant to say, but there are thousands of players out there that a lot of real hardcore fans keep track of; there are scouting networks, scouting agencies, agent recommendations, former player recs....

To go through ANY transfer period, with MLSE's resources, and not come out with an ideal player or two, is just incompetence.

It's quite permissible in transfer negotiations to tell a player "look, we want you to lead our team, and we're willing to pay you. But we've got priorities, ,and one is time. So we need to get this done before the end of the window, or we'll go with one of our other options."

TFC has talked in terms of having a handful of people involved. But transfers, for a second-tier league, should be a major revenue producer. Gareth Bale is from Wales; you sell one player like that ... well, we all know a good transfer can transform the fortunes of the sellers, not just the buyers. So the core group tasked with handling recruitment, from the youth level to the senior team, should be huge, the largest department you have, due to the research and work involved. They should have a network of dozens of localized contacts by now in every pro league on the planet.

It's been seven freakin' years. Only corporate groupthink incompetence and arrogance can lead to this kind of failure.

[69Chevy396]

I think his movement was really good in the last game. He didn't get long to show it, but he had a couple of open looks if someone had fed him the ball. I'd give him some time. I don't know that he'll go anywhere -- his build is very slight -- but it's too early to say.

I will say that until now, I have never had the impression that our scouting department is doing its job.

It sounds arrogant to say, but there are thousands of players out there that a lot of real hardcore fans keep track of; there are scouting networks, scouting agencies, agent recommendations, former player recs....

To go through ANY transfer period, with MLSE's resources, and not come out with an ideal player or two, is just incompetence.

It's quite permissible in transfer negotiations to tell a player "look, we want you to lead our team, and we're willing to pay you. But we've got priorities, ,and one is time. So we need to get this done before the end of the window, or we'll go with one of our other options."

TFC has talked in terms of having a handful of people involved. But transfers, for a second-tier league, should be a major revenue producer. Gareth Bale is from Wales; you sell one player like that ... well, we all know a good transfer can transform the fortunes of the sellers, not just the buyers. So the core group tasked with handling recruitment, from the youth level to the senior team, should be huge, the largest department you have, due to the research and work involved. They should have a network of dozens of localized contacts by now in every pro league on the planet.

It's been seven freakin' years. Only corporate groupthink incompetence and arrogance can lead to this kind of failure.

Careful there JLoome u are beginning to "sound" like me. I am never sure how to reference this, we type shit, so "sounding" seems odd. Nevertheless, this is MLS where any team, even woeful TFC can turn their fortunes around in a hurry. By default we will stumble into a winning season one of these years.

[Thomas]

Max seemed to show some good form in the last match, so I do hope you are wrong. It does sound kind of strange to call him not fully match fit....but maybe Nelson means for a starting full time role. Wasn't he backing up Scocco with NOB, and only got minutes here and there, prior to coming to TFC?

Hope I am wrong, but Urruti has shown nothing so far. I get it he was unfit. But a 21 year old pro athlete does not need a month to get in shape.

[ag futbol]

Scocco was injured at a point so he saw significant playing time this year, which Urruti made the most of.

Jason DeVos (who occasionally says something intelligent between harping about random nonsense he is bitter about) mentioned on the TSN FC podcast that TFC basically always outsourced their thinking to MLS FO, whether that be through Mo, JK, or Payne. Payne particularly strikes me as trying to work through the scouting resources of the league rather than independently. The real question is whether the best teams in this league are still utilizing central scouting or have broken away and done their own thing. Either way, the amount of stuff that gets centrally controlled is disturbing considering the huge potential for conflicts of interest. Also appears TFC usually had their head stuck in the sand. When Camilo was shopping for a MLS club his agent purportedly approached TFC first but they shrugged him off. Add it to the long list of talented players who fell in our lap but we didn't take a proper look at.

[OgtheDim]

Its Elmer's fitness I'm more wondering about.

[Ultra & Proud]

What I would like to know, but will never find out, is what is the deal with Rey, Urruti, and Elmer that Payne talked them up so much yet Nelsen barely plays them. The match fitness excuse has to reaching it's end and then what? Since none of the three are coming that cheap it makes no sense to sit them. If they truly aren't better than Lambe, Wiedeman, and Morgan then why spend a few hundred thousand cap dollars on bench options?