Matchday 25: Toronto at D.C., Sat 24 Aug, 7:00pm

[v00d00daddy]

It makes perfect sense to hire an inexperienced manager during a rebuild because that guy can learn on the job & grow with the team. A higher quality of manager is going to have his own options & is naturally not going to choose a team that doesn't have talent to work with. The most unreasonable thing is hiring an inexperienced manager & then firing the guy because he doesn't get instant results.

I've seen nothing from Nelsen that suggests that he is some kind of burden that prevents the team from accomplishing more. Until we see what he does with a more talented roster, any judgement on the guy is rash to say the least. At the end of the day, Kevin Payne & the FO are going to have more of a hand in deciding the fate of this rebuild than Nelsen is. If the front office doesn't improve the quality of this roster, then Nelsen is going to have a tough time regardless.

There are inexperienced managers and then there are players who are not, and have never been managers. Ryan Nelsen is not just inexperienced. We were waiting for him to stop being an active player before he became our manager. There are LITERALLY more experienced coaches and tacticians on this board than Nelsen was when he joined TFC.

That being said, I agree that he deserves time. But to suggest that he hasn't failed on certain occasions with his tactics and player selection is plain wrong. He's said and done plenty of things to be critical about.

[Jeff s]

It makes perfect sense to hire an inexperienced manager during a rebuild because that guy can learn on the job & grow with the team. A higher quality of manager is going to have his own options & is naturally not going to choose a team that doesn't have talent to work with. The most unreasonable thing is hiring an inexperienced manager & then firing the guy because he doesn't get instant results.

I've seen nothing from Nelsen that suggests that he is some kind of burden that prevents the team from accomplishing more. Until we see what he does with a more talented roster, any judgement on the guy is rash to say the least. At the end of the day, Kevin Payne & the FO are going to have more of a hand in deciding the fate of this rebuild than Nelsen is. If the front office doesn't improve the quality of this roster, then Nelsen is going to have a tough time regardless.

Well he can learn on the job and grow with the team all he wants, but that STILL doesn't tell us if he's going to end up a good manager to begin with.

To help prove my point, just look at Winter. His first season was a write off with people saying it was a rebuilding season. So during his second season when his philosophy and signings has settled down, we have a horrendous 0-9 start. It was clear at this point that this was his limit at the time. He wasn't going to get any better. Thats 2 seasons wasted on poor manager.

This is again why it makes sense to get an experienced manager. He can look at his past squads and have a general idea of what type of players and style to put in. I'm not sure if Nelson knows any of this. Does he know which players work best with his tactics?

I'm hoping for the best, I really am. I would be thrilled if he proves me wrong and we greatly improve. But looking at our track record with managers in the same situation as Nelson, I'm not holding my breath for the meantime.

[ag futbol]

We have so many one dimensional players. Sigh.

This is an interesting observation. For a while, I've been trying to figure out what bothers me about the way TFC are organized without putting a finger on it. But what you've wrote sums it up nicely.

I find modern football has moved away from the idea of specialists while TFC seem to be running head-on towards it. We try to put players in roles that are very functional and narrowly focused. It provides us with consistency which helps defensively, but attack wise we are predictable and stale. It feels very old school 4-4-2, which to be frank is absolutely dead within the game right now.

[JuliquE]

To help prove my point, just look at Winter. His first season was a write off with people saying it was a rebuilding season. So during his second season when his philosophy and signings has settled down, we have a horrendous 0-9 start. It was clear at this point that this was his limit at the time. He wasn't going to get any better. Thats 2 seasons wasted on poor manager.

LAUL

[Sullivan]

No thanks to Yallop. If we're stuck on being Canadian I'll take sasho cirovski (sp).

Visiting my son who lives in the DC area, and we took in TFC at DCU.

No doubt Cirovski ends up in MLS, soon too, and most likely not with TFC.

I'm fully plugged in to NCAA footy - two sons are coaching there.

It's common knowledge that eventually Cirovski wants the US national team gig.

But if the USSF are going to go homegrown with their next coach (and that voice is getting louder) they won't appoint a guy with no pro experience.
It's why Bruce Arena left UVa; it's why Sigi Schmidt left UCLA; and it's why Caleb Porter left Akron.

Personally, I don't see TFC or DCU making coaching changes until we're into next season. However.....

Here's part of the discussion revolving around Cirovski:
- he has nothing left to prove at College Park, or the NCAA.
- this is his 20th season at College Park, he has an out clause on his contract for a pro job.
- currently, he's out of the USSF picture, Porter is making a strong claim with his work in Portland, and Sigi's window is closing, they're the frontrunners.
- his way of doing things has been very successful, both in wins and developing players to play at higher levels.
- but..... he knows Payne very well, too well, and if I'm allowed to speculate, given a choice of TFC or DCU, Cirovski leaves money on the table and takes the DCU gig.
- he won't want Payne in his kitchen, and we know Payne has put himself there with Nelson.

At last night's game, I heard a few more stories about Payne, he's certainly not missed.

Unless TFC is the only gig available, I can see Cirovski going elsewhere. Payne is just too hands on.

Should Leiweke gas all that is related to Payne, Nelson & Co., .... maybe things get a whole lot different.

[CFL]

Visiting my son who lives in the DC area, and we took in TFC at DCU.

No doubt Cirovski ends up in MLS, soon too, and most likely not with TFC.

I'm fully plugged in to NCAA footy - two sons are coaching there.

It's common knowledge that eventually Cirovski wants the US national team gig.

But if the USSF are going to go homegrown with their next coach (and that voice is getting louder) they won't appoint a guy with no pro experience.
It's why Bruce Arena left UVa; it's why Sigi Schmidt left UCLA; and it's why Caleb Porter left Akron.

Personally, I don't see TFC or DCU making coaching changes until we're into next season. However.....

Here's part of the discussion revolving around Cirovski:
- he has nothing left to prove at College Park, or the NCAA.
- this is his 20th season at College Park, he has an out clause on his contract for a pro job.
- currently, he's out of the USSF picture, Porter is making a strong claim with his work in Portland, and Sigi's window is closing, they're the frontrunners.
- his way of doing things has been very successful, both in wins and developing players to play at higher levels.
- but..... he knows Payne very well, too well, and if I'm allowed to speculate, given a choice of TFC or DCU, Cirovski leaves money on the table and takes the DCU gig.
- he won't want Payne in his kitchen, and we know Payne has put himself there with Nelson.

At last night's game, I heard a few more stories about Payne, he's certainly not missed.

Unless TFC is the only gig available, I can see Cirovski going elsewhere. Payne is just too hands on.

Should Leiweke gas all that is related to Payne, Nelson & Co., .... maybe things get a whole lot different.

Ouch. Imagine a national team's coach whose claim to fame is he's coached NCAA. What a joke that would be at this point for the US. Bradley will come back before that. And I hate NCAA coaches in the MLS at this point. Marco Schallibaum has proven that the myth of that Europeans don't know the league and can't win here is a just that. A myth. The MLS has to aspire to get better, NCAA coaches are a step back.

[jloome]

NCAA coaches are a step back.

Bruce Arena, Schellas Hyndman, Caleb Porter are all pretty good coaches. Also all former NCAA.

We don't even have that. We have a rookie and a Division III college coach. Right now, it feels like it.

[ag futbol]

Visiting my son who lives in the DC area, and we took in TFC at DCU.

No doubt Cirovski ends up in MLS, soon too, and most likely not with TFC.

I'm fully plugged in to NCAA footy - two sons are coaching there.

It's common knowledge that eventually Cirovski wants the US national team gig.

But if the USSF are going to go homegrown with their next coach (and that voice is getting louder) they won't appoint a guy with no pro experience.
It's why Bruce Arena left UVa; it's why Sigi Schmidt left UCLA; and it's why Caleb Porter left Akron.

Personally, I don't see TFC or DCU making coaching changes until we're into next season. However.....

Here's part of the discussion revolving around Cirovski:
- he has nothing left to prove at College Park, or the NCAA.
- this is his 20th season at College Park, he has an out clause on his contract for a pro job.
- currently, he's out of the USSF picture, Porter is making a strong claim with his work in Portland, and Sigi's window is closing, they're the frontrunners.
- his way of doing things has been very successful, both in wins and developing players to play at higher levels.
- but..... he knows Payne very well, too well, and if I'm allowed to speculate, given a choice of TFC or DCU, Cirovski leaves money on the table and takes the DCU gig.
- he won't want Payne in his kitchen, and we know Payne has put himself there with Nelson.

At last night's game, I heard a few more stories about Payne, he's certainly not missed.

Unless TFC is the only gig available, I can see Cirovski going elsewhere. Payne is just too hands on.

Should Leiweke gas all that is related to Payne, Nelson & Co., .... maybe things get a whole lot different.

Thanks for the post, quite insightful. I agree it is unlikely that Cirovski would show up in Toronto to work under a rather controlling Kevin Payne. But long run I would think Leiweke and Payne are on a collision course. No way those two big heads can fit under one roof.

Ouch. Imagine a national team's coach whose claim to fame is he's coached NCAA. What a joke that would be at this point for the US. Bradley will come back before that. And I hate NCAA coaches in the MLS at this point. Marco Schallibaum has proven that the myth of that Europeans don't know the league and can't win here is a just that. A myth. The MLS has to aspire to get better, NCAA coaches are a step back.

As far as the NCAA coaching pool goes, I’d say there are good ones and bad ones. Some actually do a good job preparing players for the pro game and are quite knowledgeable. Others are just prolific recruiters and milk the bastardized rules of the NCAA game to get ahead **cough** UCONN **cough.

The league is now in a position where managing a MLS team is closer to managing a MLS team is similar to managing a club elsewhere in the world. I’m not sure how much credit you want to give Schallibaumthough. Even their own fans mostly credit success in the transfer market and a strong roster.

[Blizzard]

Thanks for the post, quite insightful. I agree it is unlikely that Cirovski would show up in Toronto to work under a rather controlling Kevin Payne. But long run I would think Leiweke and Payne are on a collision course. No way those two big heads can fit under one roof.

Ya and if Payne is booted, so is Nelsen. I just hope that if that should occur, the new coach and GM don't feel the need to totally destroy the roster again.

[OgtheDim]

Schallibaum is going to wear out his welcome in Montreal. There is a reason why he bounced from team to team in Switzerland.

One of the reasons why you won't see a better quality European manager over here is the money. An assistant, like a Carver, can make a lot more in Europe then he can here.

[OgtheDim]

Ya and if Payne is booted, so is Nelsen. I just hope that if that should occur, the new coach and GM don't feel the need to totally destroy the roster again.

If we are so bad that those two get fired, darn right the roster will get blown up again.

Its why MLS teams take far longer to pull the trigger on GM's these days. A GM change is a 3 year exercise.

[Oldtimer]

Can we stop having this obsessive focus EVERY match about Nelsen's lack of experience prior to TFC? One, it's not helpful. Two, in case you guys haven't noticed, he's no longer inexperienced, he has nearly one whole season behind him. So give it a rest already.

[OgtheDim]

Can we stop having this obsessive focus EVERY match about Nelsen's lack of experience prior to TFC? One, it's not helpful. Two, in case you guys haven't noticed, he's no longer inexperienced, he has nearly one whole season behind him. So give it a rest already.

Oh, I think its just getting started.

I said at the beginning of this season, in that thread about how long you would give Payne and Nelsen until you started judging them, that I would give them until June of next season.

I see no reason to change my mind.

[BuSaPuNk]

Can we stop having this obsessive focus EVERY match about Nelsen's lack of experience prior to TFC? One, it's not helpful. Two, in case you guys haven't noticed, he's no longer inexperienced, he has nearly one whole season behind him. So give it a rest already.

Bingo! +1

Wish people would stop with the constant fire and torch routine it's getting old. You can't win anything with consistant changes at GM, Coach, players the way we have.

Even if we believe that Payne and Nelsen arnt the right people for the job they have to have time to show what that they can do.

[Sullivan]

But long run I would think Leiweke and Payne are on a collision course. No way those two big heads can fit under one roof.

Inevitable.

Others are just prolific recruiters and milk the bastardized rules of the NCAA game to get ahead **cough** UCONN **cough.

Good example. Would have been the 1st one that I would have listed.

[v00d00daddy]

I don't think Nelsen should be fired. He needs more time.

But that doesn't mean that his inexperience doesn't come shining through.

I don't care if its tiresome. It's the truth. And it could very well be the biggest success or failure in Paynes tenure here when all is said and done.

If we can praise the team or players when they do well then we should be able to be critical of people when they fuck up.

Nelsens tactics and player selection yesterday were complete shit. Call it inexperience or incompetence. Either way. It was bad.

It may be getting old to hear but that doesn't make it untrue.

[jloome]

I don't think Nelsen should be fired. He needs more time.

But that doesn't mean that his inexperience doesn't come shining through.

I don't care if its tiresome. It's the truth. And it could very well be the biggest success or failure in Paynes tenure here when all is said and done.

If we can praise the team or players when they do well then we should be able to be critical of people when they fuck up.

Nelsens tactics and player selection yesterday were complete shit. Call it inexperience or incompetence. Either way. It was bad.

It may be getting old to hear but that doesn't make it untrue.

Yes; "it's getting tiresome" isn't a point. It's a statement. It doesn't invalidate any of the arguments about what his inexperience is costing us as we rebuild. It's also not the same as saying "we want him gone, now."

People reach better decisions when the recognize nuance. It's quite possible, based on the number of issues involved, to think they're both useless wankers but that firing either right now is still premature.

[BuSaPuNk]

I don't think Nelsen should be fired. He needs more time.

But that doesn't mean that his inexperience doesn't come shining through.

I don't care if its tiresome. It's the truth. And it could very well be the biggest success or failure in Paynes tenure here when all is said and done.

If we can praise the team or players when they do well then we should be able to be critical of people when they fuck up.

Nelsens tactics and player selection yesterday were complete shit. Call it inexperience or incompetence. Either way. It was bad.

It may be getting old to hear but that doesn't make it untrue.

You have to have a chance to gain experience before you have it. I believe Payne went into this year knowing we're in a mess. Our cap and lack of quality was a big problem. He's addressed alot of those issues.

I have no problem having Nelsen learn on the job with an inexperienced group of players they can build a foundation together. If there's not a soild start next season then it's time to address him as coach. Until them we back him and give him support.

[v00d00daddy]

Sure. But what does that mean? Back him and support him means that he can do no wrong because this is a building year?

I wish I could get a job like that.

Absolutely no expectations and free reign to make as many mistakes without the fear of any consequences.

[Ivy]

He was hired to learn on the job - Payne knew that, MLSE knew that. The "disciplinary" actions towards someone who is hired to learn on the job are different than they would be on someone who is brought it due to their resume or pedigree. If Nelsen was showing complete incompetence and damaging the team, I could see disciplinary action being taken towards him. However, though it may not be as quick as soon people wish, TFC has, and still is, going through a major overhaul. I see a lot of positives, and much more improved play over last year.

Everybody is a bad driver when they first get in a car - give him time and allow him to get comfortable in his own shoes.

[BuSaPuNk]

Sure. But what does that mean? Back him and support him means that he can do no wrong because this is a building year?

I wish I could get a job like that.

Absolutely no expectations and free reign to make as many mistakes without the fear of any consequences.

Mistakes through the eyes of yourself. We don't know if management thinks there bad decisions. Anything they do could be made as a bad decision.

[BuSaPuNk]

Sure. But what does that mean? Back him and support him means that he can do no wrong because this is a building year?

I wish I could get a job like that.

Absolutely no expectations and free reign to make as many mistakes without the fear of any consequences.

Listen if a mass firing and torches and pitchforks is what you want I'm sure this is the wrong place for you. I'm pretty sure I don't need to post our charter do I?

There's a time and place to make complaints. Jumping on failure means nothing. Working to bring us to what we should be is what we should be doing.

[Ivy]

Mistakes through the eyes of yourself. We don't know if management thinks there bad decisions. Anything they do could be made as a bad decision.

That seems to be the agenda for many.

[v00d00daddy]

Mistakes through the eyes of yourself. We don't know if management thinks there bad decisions. Anything they do could be made as a bad decision.

Doesn't that go without saying? It's just my opinion.

Listen if a mass firing and torches and pitchforks is what you want I'm sure this is the wrong place for you. I'm pretty sure I don't need to post our charter do I?

There's a time and place to make complaints. Jumping on failure means nothing. Working to bring us to what we should be is what we should be doing.

Hold on. What have I said that violates the charter? Pitchforks and a mass firing? I said that I don't think he should be fired and that he should be given more time. All I'm saying is that during that time, if I think he (or any other person at TFC), does something that I don't agree with I should be allowed to say so.

That seems to be the agenda for many.

I don't have an agenda. But if this is a place to talk about this team with other people who want to see TFC succeed then why is voicing an opinion, backed up with evidence in the form of things said and done, seen as an agenda?

This is getting a little bizarre.

[ag futbol]

He was hired to learn on the job - Payne knew that, MLSE knew that. The "disciplinary" actions towards someone who is hired to learn on the job are different than they would be on someone who is brought it due to their resume or pedigree. If Nelsen was showing complete incompetence and damaging the team, I could see disciplinary action being taken towards him. However, though it may not be as quick as soon people wish, TFC has, and still is, going through a major overhaul. I see a lot of positives, and much more improved play over last year.

Everybody is a bad driver when they first get in a car - give him time and allow him to get comfortable in his own shoes.

The direction of the team undoubtedly changed once Leiweke joined MLSE. Remember all the talk of this being a rebuilding year? That dried up very quickly once that hire happened. You could say the same about the “no old guys” DP policy which suddenly morphed into finding an exception if that involved a superstar player.

Leiweke did an interview a little while ago and he frequently made references to TFC starting to “act” like a big club as opposed to what they’ve done in the past. He said TFC repeatedly made small-time moves when their potential means they should have been shooting for the fences.

So given this is the type of vision he’s been articulating, I have a really hard time believing that his plan includes giving a young manager a lot of rope to get up to speed.

[jloome]

Doesn't that go without saying? It's just my opinion.



Hold on. What have I said that violates the charter? Pitchforks and a mass firing? I said that I don't think he should be fired and that he should be given more time. All I'm saying is that during that time, if I think he (or any other person at TFC), does something that I don't agree with I should be allowed to say so.



I don't have an agenda. But if this is a place to talk about this team with other people who want to see TFC succeed then why is voicing an opinion, backed up with evidence in the form of things said and done, seen as an agenda?

This is getting a little bizarre.

Like I said, no nuance. There were some pitchforks on that page of posts, dude, but they were aimed at you, not payne and nelsen.

Eek.

I frequently disagree with people who are hasty to call for peoples' heads. At the same time, being a supporter or part of a supporter's group should never mean you're forced to lack objectivity. That's when groups stop serving a socially beneficial purpose, typically.

[jloome]

The direction of the team undoubtedly changed once Leiweke joined MLSE. Remember all the talk of this being a rebuilding year? That dried up very quickly once that hire happened. You could say the same about the “no old guys” DP policy which suddenly morphed into finding an exception if that involved a superstar player.

Leiweke did an interview a little while ago and he frequently made references to TFC starting to “act” like a big club as opposed to what they’ve done in the past. He said TFC repeatedly made small-time moves when their potential means they should have been shooting for the fences.

So given this is the type of vision he’s been articulating, I have a really hard time believing that his plan includes giving a young manager a lot of rope to get up to speed.

It's quite possible based on his past that Nelsen gets until mid season next year and no more before Lieweke loses patience and starts slinging dough for someone more high profile.

But I doubt he'll react until they've had a preseason with room to maneuver under the cap. Let's face it, we're still fielding a 60-75% 'B' team compared to most sides.

[ag futbol]

It's quite possible based on his past that Nelsen gets until mid season next year and no more before Lieweke loses patience and starts slinging dough for someone more high profile.

But I doubt he'll react until they've had a preseason with room to maneuver under the cap. Let's face it, we're still fielding a 60-75% 'B' team compared to most sides.

Oh I agree with you there. I give Nelsen a 95% chance of being the coach opening day 2014... but I think the pressure to perform will be there from very early on.

Prior to Leiweke I think a "soft" season next year would probably have been tolerated. But now I don't see it as a possibility.

[BuSaPuNk]

Hold on. What have I said that violates the charter? Pitchforks and a mass firing? I said that I don't think he should be fired and that he should be given more time. All I'm saying is that during that time, if I think he (or any other person at TFC), does something that I don't agree with I should be allowed to say so.



I don't have an agenda. But if this is a place to talk about this team with other people who want to see TFC succeed then why is voicing an opinion, backed up with evidence in the form of things said and done, seen as an agenda?

This is getting a little bizarre.

You didn't do anything to violate the charter and i'm not saying you did, but the charter says clearly that we support this team on the pitch for 90 mins through thick and thin.

We have outlets to have our voices heard about mismanagement though different channels. But when the boys are on the pitch we support. Leave the bull and politics at the door.