Matchday 24: Toronto at Columbus , Sat 17 Aug, 7:30pm

[trane]

I think one of the reasons you hear from fewer of us older guys is that we're at a bit of a loss for words sometimes these days; yes, they're fixing some of the staff problems of the past.

But I have to wonder, honestly, if picking a coach who is new and learning on the job didn't make it twice as hard.

Look we can talk all we want about strong efforts or weak players, but if a team is tactically under-prepared it won't matter. We have elementally incorrect tactical issues that never seem to be addressed.

* The most important is our off-the-ball movement. The biggest reasons why it always seems like we're playing against compact teams and have no space to operate is that our players off the ball do NOTHING to break the opposing team's shape up, such as dragging defenders out of their zones or positions, so that other players can use that space. If you can't spread a defence, or overload it to one side, your man on the ball always has to beat two or more players, because there's always someone close to support his defender. When I see zero effort to move off the ball unconventionally, or out of lanes, that tells me it's not being taught. NO ONE moves off the ball on our team. We're rigid.

* We are not teaching young players to consistently attack the ball. Both Doneil Henry and Ashtone Morgan continue to make the fundamental mistake that was drummed out of any school kid when I was a young lad across the pond, which is taking an intercept position at the ball's apex destination, instead starting from behind that spot and accelerating to attack the ball. Instead, our guys get position, then try to win the ball when it gets there. This is basic, basic defending 101. Our coach is a defender. I simply refuses to believe attacking the ball is being taught, as it rarely happens unless it's Mattias Laba or Stephen Caldwell.

* When the ball is wide in the final third, one of the midfielders has to be pinching in. We are so concerned about losing defensive shape that it's rare for that extra body to get there untilt he ball is delivered. But the encroaching midfielder's job isn't just to attack; it's also to create havoc and space for the strikers. You can't do that if your ten yards shy of the edge of the box when crosses are delivered.

*We play the fullback overlap far too often. Today, twice our fullbacks began to overlap before we were even out of our defensive third; on one occasion, it so suprised Bobby Convey that he misplayed his pass and had to drop back to fill Morgan's role.

* By placing the entire attacking burden on the two strikers and having them basically play "posts" (one cuts near post across the penalty marker, the other goes far post in expectation of crosses to those spots) we don't have a striker ever holding up the ball and giving midfielders time to get into position. One of the reasons why 433 variants are favored is that they allow a pivot of the attack to a new position very quickly. Our rigidity means that's impossible, which makes unbalancing the field to one side very difficult.

I just get a general sense that our time is spent on scenarios and setting up basic triangle support play; it just seems wholly insufficent, and basic problems aren't being addressed.

Still, early days I guess....

The systems I like for these league are 4-3-3, 4-4-1-1 or a 4-5-1, which in some ways can all look like one another. But for me the key to success, is having that ONE classic Center Forward that can hold up the ball and pass it back to runners, and one rely DP quality or almost, AM/SS, a 10 if you will everyone else can play off these
two. the rest of the team needs to stay organized and support INTELLIGENTLY. To this day, I still think that we so some of our most efficient attacking play when Dichio was upfront, and provided both focus and a pivot for the attack. Clearly the team was full of other problems, but his presence allowed for the team to attack in a logical manner. De Ro was clearly our greatest offensive threat, but much of what he did was individual effort and skill. In some way I would like to see a De Ro type behind a real quality DP. It is a simple but effective was of playing.


* A good DM CM, knows too read the game so that he can support the attack without sacrificing defensive positioning, meaning he will come forward when opportune and know to get back to defend without being left behind by a counter.

[OgtheDim]

Question cause I can`t remember. Did Brennan attack the ball? He is, technically, the defenders coach.

[trane]

Jloome, what I was always taught, always try to intercept the ball first, kill the attack before it starts, but never do it unless you are sure that you will get there, or someone is covering you, as far as defensive positioning, always stay between the attacker and the net, then work to cut space until you can win the ball.

[v00d00daddy]

Jloome, what I was always taught, always try to intercept the ball first, kill the attack before it starts, but never do it unless you are sure that you will get there, or someone is covering you, as far as defensive positioning, always stay between the attacker and the net, then work to cut space until you can win the ball.

Totally agree. It's a skill that takes more brains than physical ability. Caldwell seems to do it quite well.

Henry needs to learn this skill and he'll be fine.

Ecks and Morgan seem incapable. Once they get a little older and lose a step they'll be doomed.

A good defender lays in wait, makes the attacking player think an option is there, and then snuffs it out before it can materialise in to anything.

Trane...the intelligent player we need is a guy just like higuain. If we had a general like that...that can attack, hold up balls, AND distribute, we'd be in much better shape.

[ensco]

Is it coaching or personnel? We just seem lacking in team speed, except for Osorio and Laba.

[Richard]

Is it coaching or personnel? We just seem lacking in team speed, except for Osorio and Laba.

The realistic answer is its both. It is for sure personnel as we don't have capable players, and its also a bit of coaching because Nelson is inexperienced, team still doesn't do some of the fundamentals right.

[ag futbol]

Is it coaching or personnel? We just seem lacking in team speed, except for Osorio and Laba.

That's funny I just posted the same thing about our lack of pace in the roster thread. I'm not caught up on having a fast team, but we should probably have someone who can challenge for pace.

I don't want to give a firm opinion on this coaching staff until the end of the season but let me say this: Ryan Nelson's lack of experience isn't making life any easier.

[Dreadlocks]

Haven't checked the entire thread but did anyone else notice Henry and Earnshaw going at it in the first half? Henry got the ball caught up in his feet in the 6 yard box and if he looked up he would have found Earnshaw in space at the top of the 18. He decided to try to turn to get a shot off instead and had it blocked and kicked the defender in his chest on the follow through.

If it was an argument on the field between them I would ask Earnshaw what he expects from a 21 year old centre back in a scoring position. Some of the most experienced centre backs don't make the right choice in the attacking penalty area - that's not their job! Earnshaw should be called out for HIS lack of finishing in the area. He's missed a tonne of sitters this year iirc.

Did anyone else pick this out?

[OgtheDim]

...

Did anyone else pick this out?

Yes, a few comments at the time.

Me, I though Earnshaw at the time called out Henry for stopping with the play after he kicked the guy in the chest. We had the ball in their area and Henry looked down and reached towards the guy on the ground rather then continue with the play.

But, on hindshight, ur probably right. Although every forward wants the ball, Henry is going to be useless in the box until he gets some years behind him. Earnshaw should know better.

[trane]

Totally agree. It's a skill that takes more brains than physical ability. Caldwell seems to do it quite well.

Henry needs to learn this skill and he'll be fine.

Ecks and Morgan seem incapable. Once they get a little older and lose a step they'll be doomed.

A good defender lays in wait, makes the attacking player think an option is there, and then snuffs it out before it can materialise in to anything.

Trane...the intelligent player we need is a guy just like higuain. If we had a general like that...that can attack, hold up balls, AND distribute, we'd be in much better shape.

Agreed. Maybe we can try for his little brother, Gonzalo.


If you have speed, as a defender you should use it too neutralize the play early, not to catch up to people, sooner or later you will not be able too. Ecks, has always been troubleshooting for me. He has the want, and physically he has the tools, but always too aggressive and gets caught.

[Jeff s]

Haven't checked the entire thread but did anyone else notice Henry and Earnshaw going at it in the first half? Henry got the ball caught up in his feet in the 6 yard box and if he looked up he would have found Earnshaw in space at the top of the 18. He decided to try to turn to get a shot off instead and had it blocked and kicked the defender in his chest on the follow through.

If it was an argument on the field between them I would ask Earnshaw what he expects from a 21 year old centre back in a scoring position. Some of the most experienced centre backs don't make the right choice in the attacking penalty area - that's not their job! Earnshaw should be called out for HIS lack of finishing in the area. He's missed a tonne of sitters this year iirc.

Did anyone else pick this out?

I saw the incident as well.

TBH, I found it ironic that Earnshaw was complaining. He's the one who has a habit of getting the ball and keeping his head down.


As for the game itself, every single player was poor. Nelson also didn't seem to change anything tactically, especially trying to prevent Oduro from using his speed and not closing down Higuain at all.

[metaxa]

Yes, a few comments at the time.

Me, I though Earnshaw at the time called out Henry for stopping with the play after he kicked the guy in the chest. We had the ball in their area and Henry looked down and reached towards the guy on the ground rather then continue with the play.

But, on hindshight, ur probably right. Although every forward wants the ball, Henry is going to be useless in the box until he gets some years behind him. Earnshaw should know better.

I thought the same.. cause Henry stopped playing... I thought Earnshaw was telling him to keep playing... deal with it after the plays dead... that's just me... you keep goimg till the ref blows the whistle... its pretty basic

[jloome]

Question cause I can`t remember. Did Brennan attack the ball? He is, technically, the defenders coach.

He was actually a winger at the start of his career and moved to fullback when he got slower. And his positioning was routinely awful, always pinching in too tight to the box in the defensive end and rarely getting a serious challenge in on a cross. The idea of keeping his guy out wide and marking him out of the play without overplaying him would have been pretty much lost on him.

And Trane's right -- if you're positioned properly, between the man you're marking out and the ball, you're usually going to win it. I will note on Henry's error on the first one that he had position on his player, but he was still our closest defender to the ball, so he had to attack it. Plain and simple he got caught ball watching.

I'm a little cooler headed about the whole thing today than I was over the last two days (ranting at Usector at the board was down, lol) but I do think they're either being exceptionally patient in how they address fundamental problems or there are deeper issues.

[69Chevy396]

He was actually a winger at the start of his career and moved to fullback when he got slower. And his positioning was routinely awful, always pinching in too tight to the box in the defensive end and rarely getting a serious challenge in on a cross. The idea of keeping his guy out wide and marking him out of the play without overplaying him would have been pretty much lost on him.

And Trane's right -- if you're positioned properly, between the man you're marking out and the ball, you're usually going to win it. I will note on Henry's error on the first one that he had position on his player, but he was still our closest defender to the ball, so he had to attack it. Plain and simple he got caught ball watching.

I'm a little cooler headed about the whole thing today than I was over the last two days (ranting at Usector at the board was down, lol) but I do think they're either being exceptionally patient in how they address fundamental problems or there are deeper issues.

The deeper issue is clear to me; would mlse hire a defenceman who played his entire career in Switzerland, and having never managed a team, be hired to coach the Leafs?

[miker]

The deeper issue is clear to me; would mlse hire a defenceman who played his entire career in Switzerland, and having never managed a team, be hired to coach the Leafs?

To be fair, MLS is not the NHL of soccer, English Premiership is hardly Switzerland and Nelsen has played in MLS and knows the league. Mixed results so far but it may work out.

[jloome]

The deeper issue is clear to me; would mlse hire a defenceman who played his entire career in Switzerland, and having never managed a team, be hired to coach the Leafs?

I don't disagree. But with a past as turbulent as ours, we are now wedded to it for at least two years.

Even MLSsoccer.com questioned this week in the team rankings why TFC doesn't seem to be addressing basic technique issues:

"

Obviously, they could be playing out the season at this point, but in addition to giving the younger guys minutes, Ryan Nelsen and his coaching staff need to work on specific skills with his group, especially on the defensive end."

Specific skills. Specific tactical movement. Right now we're not even at that point.

To me, that's as much a failure of the coaches. Even relatively workman like teams like San Jose and Columbus can put together flow, recognize positional responsibilities broader that "this is your zone."

But there's just no point starting again now. We all know that. There have been examples in the past of coaches learning quickly on the job, and that's what we have to hope for. We also need to recognize that both Payne and Lieweke have come under some pretty fair criticism as well in the past, and that the verdict is out there, as well. If they land a couple of crackerjack DPs and strengthen the team significantly before the end of next seasons' preseason, that'll make the learning curve easier on Nelsen and O'Leary.

Oh, and the analogy's a bit flawed; Nelsen played in MLS for several seasons.

[TFC07]

Next season is do or die situation for Nelsen and co. I get the feeling if Lewieke gets the big name players he wants, then he might go after a big name manager to manage the team This is where is there's going to be a conflict between Lewieke and Payne which will result in Nelsen and co getting fired or demoted to academy, scout or USL team.

[T-boy]

I saw the incident as well.

TBH, I found it ironic that Earnshaw was complaining. He's the one who has a habit of getting the ball and keeping his head down.


As for the game itself, every single player was poor. Nelson also didn't seem to change anything tactically, especially trying to prevent Oduro from using his speed and not closing down Higuain at all.

I actually think Earnie is right/ok for complaining at Henry. Equally, if Earnie came back to defend, tackled badly and gave away a penalty, Henry would have the right to shout at Earnshaw for doing "his" (Henry's) job badly for him.

All good strikers are selfish asshats really, and that's what makes them good strikers!

[69Chevy396]

I don't disagree. But with a past as turbulent as ours, we are now wedded to it for at least two years.

Even MLSsoccer.com questioned this week in the team rankings why TFC doesn't seem to be addressing basic technique issues:

"

Obviously, they could be playing out the season at this point, but in addition to giving the younger guys minutes, Ryan Nelsen and his coaching staff need to work on specific skills with his group, especially on the defensive end."

Specific skills. Specific tactical movement. Right now we're not even at that point.

To me, that's as much a failure of the coaches. Even relatively workman like teams like San Jose and Columbus can put together flow, recognize positional responsibilities broader that "this is your zone."

But there's just no point starting again now. We all know that. There have been examples in the past of coaches learning quickly on the job, and that's what we have to hope for. We also need to recognize that both Payne and Lieweke have come under some pretty fair criticism as well in the past, and that the verdict is out there, as well. If they land a couple of crackerjack DPs and strengthen the team significantly before the end of next seasons' preseason, that'll make the learning curve easier on Nelsen and O'Leary.

Oh, and the analogy's a bit flawed; Nelsen played in MLS for several seasons.

I didnt know he played for DC. I should
have wiki'd this, but why in the world would a pro club recruit an unproven, inexperienced coach? It makes no sense to me whatsoever. I know there are exceptions (gattuso), but this organization was, and remains, in desperate need of solid management particularly after what we have endured these past 7 years.

[Initial B]

It all comes back to the fact that no coach would touch this club with a 10-foot pole at the start of the season. Who would want to go to a club where no coach has lasted more than 1 season? There was too much history of Anselmi and not enough of Payne to be able look past. However, after Nelsen's contract runs out, at least TFC can say it has had some stability that they can point to for potential future coaches.

[spark]

It all comes back to the fact that no coach would touch this club with a 10-foot pole at the start of the season. Who would want to go to a club where no coach has lasted more than 1 season? There was too much history of Anselmi and not enough of Payne to be able look past. However, after Nelsen's contract runs out, at least TFC can say it has had some stability that they can point to for potential future coaches.

I used to think that too but know from 2011 even up to before Nelsen was hired, experienced coaches both in Italy and Germany were interested in coming here and quite simply their calls were never returned.

[trane]

He was actually a winger at the start of his career and moved to fullback when he got slower. And his positioning was routinely awful, always pinching in too tight to the box in the defensive end and rarely getting a serious challenge in on a cross. The idea of keeping his guy out wide and marking him out of the play without overplaying him would have been pretty much lost on him.

And Trane's right -- if you're positioned properly, between the man you're marking out and the ball, you're usually going to win it. I will note on Henry's error on the first one that he had position on his player, but he was still our closest defender to the ball, so he had to attack it. Plain and simple he got caught ball watching.

I'm a little cooler headed about the whole thing today than I was over the last two days (ranting at Usector at the board was down, lol) but I do think they're either being exceptionally patient in how they address fundamental problems or there are deeper issues.

I did not realize that Brennan was the defensive coach, I would never have thought of him as someone that I would pick to be one.

[jloome]

I used to think that too but know from 2011 even up to before Nelsen was hired, experienced coaches both in Italy and Germany were interested in coming here and quite simply their calls were never returned.

This is the larger issue. This team has suffered under corporate egos who want to constantly re-invent the wheel instead of hiring experience and buying solid players. Instead we've had experimental coaches and cast-off "talents" whose careers they've tried to resurrect. I remember a Southampton fan back about a decade ago telling me about the next big thing to come out of his team's youth squad. "Leandre Griffit will tear the Premier League a new one," he said, or something along those lines.

Yeesh.

The latest example of this, to me, was the two Canadians in the draft.[ One good combine for Bekker seemed to be all it took, as neither was rated anywhere near their selection point before the draft and with Kekuteh Manneh, Andrew Farrell, Deshorn Brown and DIllon Powers all see as "can't miss" I sort of wonder why we didn't get one of them.

Oh that's right: we didn't need help right away. Apparently.

[maninb]

It all comes back to the fact that no coach would touch this club with a 10-foot pole at the start of the season. Who would want to go to a club where no coach has lasted more than 1 season? There was too much history of Anselmi and not enough of Payne to be able look past. However, after Nelsen's contract runs out, at least TFC can say it has had some stability that they can point to for potential future coaches.

There's not a manager on the planet who could have made this collection of twits a winner...We've never had ANYONE who can put the ball in the back of the net consistently....

[OgtheDim]

There's not a manager on the planet who could have made this collection of twits a winner...We've never had ANYONE who can put the ball in the back of the net consistently....

Koevs strike rate in MLS in 2012 was every 131 minutes

It was 94 minutes in 2011, which is unheard of.

[jloome]

Koevs strike rate in MLS in 2012 was every 131 minutes

It was 94 minutes in 2011, which is unheard of.

Consistently implies ... consistently. I can't say he's played for us enough to be called a consistent threat for us.