Why descent matters so much to some people?

[C.Ronaldo]

To keep the "transfers" thread on topic, I thought I would ask this in its own thread


With my parents being portuguese, why would I care if whether a player comes from Portugal or Korea?

I don't get the argument of using descent as a filter for picking players.

The globe is our talent pool, I could care less where the player is from.


I am Canadian of luso origins, but I am still first and foremost Canadian. If I move to Portugal, THEN I am portuguese.


I watch the english, portuguese & spanish leagues which have BOAT loads of foreigners. So why would someone who CHOSE to live in Canada, watching a north american league, care where a player is from?

I would understand domestic vs international, but even then i dont think its TFCs primary job to play domestics over intls.

[Villa TFC]

Brilliant! Thank you for saying this and posting it. These are my sentiments entirely. All I want is the best for my team!

[miker]

The domestic versus international part is easy enough since MLS teams only have so many international spots and you have to be careful how you allocate them. So, in a sense, we do have a "job" of having a certain number of domestics on our team.

As far as specific countries, some people may feel the team should be developed playing the style that is favoured in particular countries and would tend to want players from those areas. Or it's a matter of where the team's braintrust has contacts ... or if the players are easier to obtain ... or if there are undiscovered gems in overlooked places.

But I agree with the posters above - I don't care where they're from, so long as they're good.

[Blizzard]

To keep the "transfers" thread on topic, I thought I would ask this in its own thread


With my parents being portuguese, why would I care if whether a player comes from Portugal or Korea?

I don't get the argument of using descent as a filter for picking players.

The globe is our talent pool, I could care less where the player is from.


I am Canadian of luso origins, but I am still first and foremost Canadian. If I move to Portugal, THEN I am portuguese.


I watch the english, portuguese & spanish leagues which have BOAT loads of foreigners. So why would someone who CHOSE to live in Canada, watching a north american league, care where a player is from?

I would understand domestic vs international, but even then i dont think its TFCs primary job to play domestics over intls.

You would have hated that aspect of the old NASL.

You had to start three North Americans and maintain a minimum of three North Americans on the field at all time. If the Blizzard were going to remove a Randy Ragan, Paul James or Colin Miller from the MF, they'd have to replace them with a Pasquale Deluca or a Charlie Falzon to maintain the magic number of three.

As it were, the Blizzard generally played more than three so it wasn't really a problem and it did turn Ragan, James and Miller into solid Canadian internationals and the Blizzard did make it to the cup final in 83 and 84 with those players.

Truthfully, it was an even playing field as every team in the league had to do it. Did it effect the quality of the spectacle? Well, I suppose so if you were going to replace all the domestic players with higher paid Euro or SA players but then you go broke ... or in this league, you max out your cap.

[OgtheDim]

Lets not forget the one NASL championship team from Toronto was actually the Toronto Metros-Croatia.

Eusébio got the winner

[v00d00daddy]

To keep the "transfers" thread on topic, I thought I would ask this in its own thread


With my parents being portuguese, why would I care if whether a player comes from Portugal or Korea?

I don't get the argument of using descent as a filter for picking players.

The globe is our talent pool, I could care less where the player is from.


I am Canadian of luso origins, but I am still first and foremost Canadian. If I move to Portugal, THEN I am portuguese.


I watch the english, portuguese & spanish leagues which have BOAT loads of foreigners. So why would someone who CHOSE to live in Canada, watching a north american league, care where a player is from?

I would understand domestic vs international, but even then i dont think its TFCs primary job to play domestics over intls.

I'd like to ask the braintrust of TFC for the last 7 years that very question.

Why, other than Canadian and American players, have TFC focused more on one part of the world than all the others?

Why did they brand the team like a UK team?
Why did they hire so many UK trained players/coaches?

It went so far that our equipment manager was/is from the UK. Lol

Colours....stadium...nickname. It's not exclusively UK but its definitely familiar.

It's ingrained in this country's footballing brain.

And I honestly would not care one bit if it produced results. (TFC and the national team programs) but it hasn't and it continues to fail.

Thankfully Payne seems different. Time will tell.

[MartinUtd]

There is no reason other than: Because my group of people is better than your group of people so we should get players who are from the same group as me.

[Mark in Ottawa]

I'd like to ask the braintrust of TFC for the last 7 years that very question.

Why, other than Canadian and American players, have TFC focused more on one part of the world than all the others?

Why did they brand the team like a UK team?
Why did they hire so many UK trained players/coaches?

It went so far that our equipment manager was/is from the UK. Lol

Colours....stadium...nickname. It's not exclusively UK but its definitely familiar.

It's ingrained in this country's footballing brain.

And I honestly would not care one bit if it produced results. (TFC and the national team programs) but it hasn't and it continues to fail.

Because the original "braintrust" of TFC had its background in the UK and therefore the majority of its contacts were there.
The franchise got mired down into a lack of ability to look at the world view but that changed in later seasons with more players from all over the world being looked at if not necessarily signed to play in Toronto.

It is hard to develop a team "identity" with so much change of personnel both on and off field.

[Kaz]

MLS was formed for the purpose of helping encourage the development of American players. Canadian MLS teams for Canadian talent to give a path for Canadians to move into that doesn't require leaving home at 15-16 to go to Europe or giving up on a professional career. The Super draft was designed to improve the college game and improve the quality, I'm assuming with the hopes of a trickle down effect resulting in strong youth clubs.

Football is 100 years old in Europe the leagues and training infrastructure is as old as Hockey, Baseball, Basketball and Gridiron is in Canada and the US. In Canada and the US the infrastructure isn't in place.

And so the MLS which is a Domestic not International league is here to help develop the sport here.

More to that point, the price of international Players is high. The Cap limit (though too low) is in place to help prevent MLS from going under and more importantly provide the appearance of Stability for even the least profitable teams. (at least in MLS 2.0)

And I'm sorry I live in Brampton, I have watch Portugal fans honk and act like buffoons for hours after a Euro Group stage wins without even knowing Canada was even in WC qualifying 30km down the road. Most Portuguese fans seem to care about Portugal and not Canada when it comes to Football.

[v00d00daddy]

MLS was formed for the purpose of helping encourage the development of American players. Canadian MLS teams for Canadian talent to give a path for Canadians to move into that doesn't require leaving home at 15-16 to go to Europe or giving up on a professional career. The Super draft was designed to improve the college game and improve the quality, I'm assuming with the hopes of a trickle down effect resulting in strong youth clubs.

Football is 100 years old in Europe the leagues and training infrastructure is as old as Hockey, Baseball, Basketball and Gridiron is in Canada and the US. In Canada and the US the infrastructure isn't in place.

And so the MLS which is a Domestic not International league is here to help develop the sport here.

More to that point, the price of international Players is high. The Cap limit (though too low) is in place to help prevent MLS from going under and more importantly provide the appearance of Stability for even the least profitable teams. (at least in MLS 2.0)

And I'm sorry I live in Brampton, I have watch Portugal fans honk and act like buffoons for hours after a Euro Group stage wins without even knowing Canada was even in WC qualifying 30km down the road. Most Portuguese fans seem to care about Portugal and not Canada when it comes to Football.

That's quite the generalization there.

I'm Canadian of Italian descent and I support Italy when they play.....unless it were ever against Canada. I'd be cheering for Canada to obliterate them. I go to World Cup qualifiers and Intl friendlies to support Canada. And I was also partying in the streets in 2006 when Italy won the World Cup.

My loyalties lie firmly on the side of my country of birth and the city I was born and raised in, but that doesn't mean that I can't see the gross incompetence at both TFC and the CMNT/CWNT.

Our footballing identity in Canada and the first 5 years of TFC (it's still there but not as pronounced) were built with an antiquated view of football. We still employ people who think that kick and run athleticism first football is going to get us somewhere. It's ridiculous. It's been dead forever and, really, it's never worked.

How we could have a guy like Paul Mariner and his tactics and views on the game at the helm of this club after 5 years of futility was mind boggling and a perfect example of how fucked up our view on football is here. Not only did he get promoted, but people who were looking to bring TFC (and by extension canadian football) in to the 21st century were fired and their plan discarded.

Now the league has stepped in to fix the mess. It's sad that the only way we can move forward is to be bailed out by someone who helps run the league.

[v00d00daddy]

Because the original "braintrust" of TFC had its background in the UK and therefore the majority of its contacts were there.

Why is that okay?

Why would they build a team around people that want to play it as it was 30 years ago and that, even then, didn't produce results?

[Richard]

Why is that okay?

Why would they build a team around people that want to play it as it was 30 years ago and that, even then, didn't produce results?

I don't want to generalize to much here buts its because the top of MLSE is "White, Anglo". Naturally there is a disposition to pick people you relate to, and are more comfortable with. UK is seen the grandfather of Canadian heritage.

[Kaz]

I grew up in Niagara Falls and went to a high school that was 80-90% Italian, heck my senior year there was a mob hit up the street from me. During the World Cup run in 94 I remember the reactions and they behaved in a expected manner.

During the Euro Cup the Portuguese Fans shut down the downtown core of Brampton for 6 hours to Celebrate a Group stage (netherlands or denmark) win a day after Canada played Honduras at BMO, when I asked what they thought of that I didn't find a single person the even knew Canada had played, and several said the didn't know Canada had a National team. I've never came across that in Niagara.

I thought they had won a Semi Final match or something.. 6 hours for a group stage win? seriously? Yet you don't know Canada has a National team?

My statement was only about those that I've encountered in Brampton.

That's quite the generalization there.

I'm Canadian of Italian descent and I support Italy when they play.....unless it were ever against Canada. I'd be cheering for Canada to obliterate them. I go to World Cup qualifiers and Intl friendlies to support Canada. And I was also partying in the streets in 2006 when Italy won the World Cup.

My loyalties lie firmly on the side of my country of birth and the city I was born and raised in, but that doesn't mean that I can't see the gross incompetence at both TFC and the CMNT/CWNT.

Our footballing identity in Canada and the first 5 years of TFC (it's still there but not as pronounced) were built with an antiquated view of football. We still employ people who think that kick and run athleticism first football is going to get us somewhere. It's ridiculous. It's been dead forever and, really, it's never worked.

How we could have a guy like Paul Mariner and his tactics and views on the game at the helm of this club after 5 years of futility was mind boggling and a perfect example of how fucked up our view on football is here. Not only did he get promoted, but people who were looking to bring TFC (and by extension canadian football) in to the 21st century were fired and their plan discarded.

Now the league has stepped in to fix the mess. It's sad that the only way we can move forward is to be bailed out by someone who helps run the league.

[v00d00daddy]

I grew up in Niagara Falls and went to a high school that was 80-90% Italian, heck my senior year there was a mob hit up the street from me. During the World Cup run in 94 I remember the reactions and they behaved in a expected manner.

During the Euro Cup the Portuguese Fans shut down the downtown core of Brampton for 6 hours to Celebrate a Group stage (netherlands or denmark) win a day after Canada played Honduras at BMO, when I asked what they thought of that I didn't find a single person the even knew Canada had played, and several said the didn't know Canada had a National team. I've never came across that in Niagara.

I thought they had won a Semi Final match or something.. 6 hours for a group stage win? seriously? Yet you don't know Canada has a National team?

My statement was only about those that I've encountered in Brampton.

Yeah that sucks. It's a vicious circle. Those fans in the streets of Brampton who didn't even know Canada had played the day before could be stupidly oblivious or they could just not know that Canada was playing because we've done such a shitty job of promoting the game here.

And most people who don't care but love football are probably fed up with the fact that we as a nation have NEVER been good. One World Cup qualification almost 30 years ago that was helped because the host nation didn't have to qualify and we didn't have to play them. We didn't score a goal in 3 games.

Now, 27 years later, when we were so close to making the hex we shit the bed in embarrassing fashion. It's hard to argue with people who have lost interest in a program that has been so bad, for so long.

The same goes for TFC, except they haven't been bad as long.

Add to all of this the fact that tons of football fans can watch a CMNT game from 2009 or a TFC game from 2009 and say "why the fuck do they play this brand of football?"

How do you answer that question without looking at where that style of football is still revered?

[v00d00daddy]

I don't want to generalize to much here buts its because the top of MLSE is "White, Anglo". Naturally there is a disposition to pick people you relate to, and are more comfortable with. UK is seen the grandfather of Canadian heritage.

I have no problem with that when talking about Canadian heritage.

But what about Canadian FOOTBALLING heritage or culture? We don't have one that has ever produced anything good. Why not change it? It should have been done a long time ago. And we'll NEVER compete until it's gone.

For example...if John Herdman keeps the ladies playing the kick and run style that they play, they will soon drop from a decent world team to a bottom feeder. Lots of countries that love football, but have been ignoring the ladies game, are starting to push it. They will pass our ladies soon.

[Shakes McQueen]

Language and culture matters, to an extent. So does the style of soccer you are trying to play. Beyond that, it doesn't matter.

- Scott

[Red CB Toronto]

I love it baby, I am on fire bitches.

[TFC07]

It matters because we're shit in soccer and need something to keep people coming to games. If we had winning and exciting soccer team, then I highly doubt we will have this discussion.

In my dream world: I wish TFC was filled with players from Southern Ontario only regardless race or cultural background so we don't have to go across the world to get players to represent Toronto soccer.

[69Chevy396]

Makes you wonder if the makeup of the club would be more diverse if an experienced, world class manager was hired instead of Nelsen.

[TFC07]

Our footballing identity in Canada and the first 5 years of TFC (it's still there but not as pronounced) were built with an antiquated view of football. We still employ people who think that kick and run athleticism first football is going to get us somewhere. It's ridiculous. It's been dead forever and, really, it's never worked.

How we could have a guy like Paul Mariner and his tactics and views on the game at the helm of this club after 5 years of futility was mind boggling and a perfect example of how fucked up our view on football is here. Not only did he get promoted, but people who were looking to bring TFC (and by extension canadian football) in to the 21st century were fired and their plan discarded.

Now the league has stepped in to fix the mess. It's sad that the only way we can move forward is to be bailed out by someone who helps run the league.

This always been a problem with soccer in this country, but however, I think grassroot level is changing for the good. Hopefully LTPD works out where skills and technique is equally as important than being an athlete who can run fast or kick the ball really hard.

[rant]Personally speaking, I remember as a kid playing for Scottish coach who flavour athleticism over skill which suck because I played more skilled/technique game. I remember how I got benched or wasn't coach's good side at all, but yet, I still manage to make all-star team as a starter while kids that coach flavour and went out his way to recommend to all-star coach to pick for his team didn't make it or weren't starters. I think this is where my hate for British soccer comes from. lol [/rant]

[bolduc]

Makes you wonder if the makeup of the club would be more diverse if an experienced, world class manager was hired instead of Nelsen.

Yeah, I'm sure Mourinho, Lippi, Trappattoni et al are lining up to come to Toronto.
Maybe next year we will be able to come to terms with them.

[Alonso]

Makes you wonder if the makeup of the club would be more diverse if an experienced, world class manager was hired instead of Nelsen.

[Masked Man]

I have no problem with that when talking about Canadian heritage.

But what about Canadian FOOTBALLING heritage or culture? We don't have one that has ever produced anything good. Why not change it? It should have been done a long time ago. And we'll NEVER compete until it's gone.

For example...if John Herdman keeps the ladies playing the kick and run style that they play, they will soon drop from a decent world team to a bottom feeder. Lots of countries that love football, but have been ignoring the ladies game, are starting to push it. They will pass our ladies soon.

Does style really matter at the end of the day for the national team? The Men's national team doesn't really have a choice to change their tactics because the talent pool for soccer players in Canada is too shallow. There aren't enough places in Canada for players to grow & develop their game. We don't have a professional league so how can we compete on the pitch with countries that do? We need infrastructure if we want to get better as a soccer country.

TFC is another story. This franchise was doomed to fail from day one because of the unqualified people that were hired to oversee it, who were scrambling for band-aid's with little vision because that's the approach MLSE took with all their franchises. Which is why the people in charge put them all in the toilet. You can't do anything in professional sports without planning ahead. All they did was try to look for things to sell so they could lead the fans along. Sell potential trades & signings, Sell the young canadians even though the team throws them in without being ready, sell Winter's style....they didn't believe in any of this drivel. When they knew it wasn't working they moved on to something else.

[West220Side]

Supporting is much more fun when you can relate yourself to somebody within the organization, when there's a player on the pitch from where you're from. If you're from Oakville, you're probably going to really like Bekker and want him on the pitch representing you.

Toronto FC as a brand is the team I support, but if I want a name on a jersey, or a favorite player it takes a special someone to build that relationship between club and supporter.

A lot of people liked De Rosario, if he was from Ghana would it have been the same? Maybe not. He's a Canadian boy from Scarborough who had a very good relationship with supporters. That's why people still say "De Ro come home."

Its that simple, it has nothing to do with talent, quality, or anything like that. I personally don't care where they sign players from I just think it would be nice if you could make throw up a banner made from a flag of your backround. I've never had the chance.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Makes you wonder if the makeup of the club would be more diverse if an experienced, world class manager was hired instead of Nelsen.

So the outrageous "world class" part is what you're more focused on, right?

Because Preki and Winter went outside the UK when they went scouting for talent. We've had diversity just not from where you're specifically targeting.

[Roca]

Yeah, I'm sure Mourinho, Lippi, Trappattoni et al are lining up to come to Toronto.
Maybe next year we will be able to come to terms with them.

I bet we could get Sven! lol

[Kaz]

The problem is they often 2nd and 3rd generation. I'm Canadian. I didn't care about Football before 2007, (as I don't watch sports) but fell hard for the game. This year I follow but rarely watch and haven't been to BMO in a while, because sadly my money can be better spent else where.

I however have never known any group of people who celebrate such a meaningless game for several hours (particularly as I think they were eliminated from the group stage) while not knowing anything about the Canadian Game. And so yes speaking of the Portuguese fans (in Brampton in general) they seem to care more about Portugal then Canada when it comes to Football. It wasn't a blind statement. I'll leave it there.

[Mark in Ottawa]

Why is that okay?

Why would they build a team around people that want to play it as it was 30 years ago and that, even then, didn't produce results?

I never said it was OK ... or that it wasn't. It was what it was.
The franchise tried in true Canadian form to have the team name, logo etc ... to be as plain vanilla and not culturally identifiable as any one ethnic group as possible. They wanted the club to feel inclusive to everyone.

The original football management team was definitely more UK experienced than anywhere else. They hired what they thought were the best people available given the unique makeup of Major League Soccer with its salary caps, designated players and allocation money scheme. Obviously, for whatever reason, it didn't work out.

The franchise has been searching for an identity since day 1 and what with all the changes of direction over the years have not achieved this to date. Now ... new ownership and a new management team with MLS experience and a different set on contacts.
Time will tell what they can achieve.

[crozack]

I'm of Croatian heritage and proudly wear the checkers during the Euro's and World Cup(hopefully that continues in Brazil but I digress).....I would have no issues with Italians, French, Serbs....etc coming to TFC as long as the are proud to wear the jersey and make us a top contender. I actually like the appeal of a multi-ethic "Toronto" team that represents all of the peeps in the seats.