Garber: MLS expansion near top of agenda

[Haddy]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/mls/g...top-of-agenda/

I understand that MLS sure does love those expansion fees. But at what point is too much? A small part of me wanted expansion to stop at 20 to create a really high demand. But I get that we're talking about a much bigger land mass than usual.

I'll be realistic and say they'll hit 24 no problem. That could coincide with Garber's 2022 prophecy of a top league. But I truly hope it stops there.

Let the NASL, USL and nameless Canadian league(s) pick up the slack.

[Super]

I'm definitely against further expansion. I fear that we'll only water down the talent pool even more than at present, and it'll mean tougher odds for everybody to win anything. I think the better move would be to move teams from failing markets to better ones (Chivas is one such example). However, if a city comes knocking with another 100 million dollars and promise of a brand new stadium, then yeah, that's not going to drag the league down for sure.

[ensco]

How long do dogs lick their balls? Answer below...

They play lip service to the 20 team limit, it keeps the purists calm, but I think it's a ruse.

There are 30+ teams in the other major NA sports.

Answer: They'll keep going as long as they can.

[billyfly]

Would there be a Canadian addition?

[OgtheDim]

The Nuck fks make it 20.

I can see Miami, and Orlando, although they are not making friends in MLS management and didn't get the arena deal they thought they were going to get.

Then I suspect an outlier like San Antonio, a team in the west with just too much support to not get a team.

And another Mid West team, like Minneapolis St. Paul.

There's your 24.

After that, the road to 30 would go through

Indy, North Carolina, Pittsburgh, Sacramento, Atlanta, Tampa, Phoenix, St. Louis, Calgary (more likely to financially support a team long term then Edmonton), San Fran, or any other city with more money then sense

As for teams with current issues:

Chivas is more likely to be resold and move within the LA area.

NE just needs new owners. I can't see MLS giving up on that area.

I must admit, I have no idea how Columbus makes money. Consistently under perform, in a small market, with little growth potential. I suppose that's why the Hunts are, its rumoured, finally bringing in some local ownership tomorrow. I could see them moving in 5 years, probably to a Southern city like Atlanta.

Dallas has a nice arena far from where anybody lives.

[Richard]

I think 20 is perfect but 24 is doable as well. I would rather MLS increase the cap and quality of play immensely before they even think about going to 30.

[MartinUtd]

I think 20 is perfect but 24 is doable as well. I would rather MLS increase the cap and quality of play immensely before they even think about going to 30.

I have to agree with you here. And to add to that, how many times are we going to beat the Florida dead horse? Maybe, just maybe Orlando will get in. But Tampa and Miami as well? North Carolina could be suitable, but Atlanta seems to have problems supporting teams, I'm pretty sure it would be the second coming of FC Dallas: A big city with no transit system and an unwillingness to secure premium real estate for a soccer team. North Cali won't get another team as San Jose is poised to move into their new stadium and I doubt MLS wants to siphon off fans so soon. That leaves the southwest and the midwest and San Antonio notwithstanding, its a craps shoot on any choice between Phoenix and Detroit.

[Haddy]

Don't forget Detroit. Privately funded stadium offered, sort of.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/silve...ls-to-detroit/

[Cashcleaner]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/mls/g...top-of-agenda/

I understand that MLS sure does love those expansion fees. But at what point is too much? A small part of me wanted expansion to stop at 20 to create a really high demand. But I get that we're talking about a much bigger land mass than usual.

I'll be realistic and say they'll hit 24 no problem. That could coincide with Garber's 2022 prophecy of a top league. But I truly hope it stops there.

Let the NASL, USL and nameless Canadian league(s) pick up the slack.

20 teams for me is the magic number for several reasons - it leaves the talent pool fairly undiluted, it encourages support on a regional level, and it stops expansion being a primary economic driver for the league.

Now, 24 clubs is definitely doable for MLS, but I know we can kiss any possibility of a balance home/away schedule goodbye with 24 teams in competition. I'm probably not what people would consider a strict purist when it comes to soccer, but for me a balanced schedule is something we really should strive for as the current playoff format and plethora of extra-league tournaments makes more individual matches all that more important to win.

I'm definitely against further expansion. I fear that we'll only water down the talent pool even more than at present, and it'll mean tougher odds for everybody to win anything. I think the better move would be to move teams from failing markets to better ones (Chivas is one such example). However, if a city comes knocking with another 100 million dollars and promise of a brand new stadium, then yeah, that's not going to drag the league down for sure.

I definitely agree the league needs to seriously look at the chronically under-performing teams and figure out exit strategies for those franchises. There's little sense in my mind of granting a franchise to Sacramento or San Diego while Chivas in Los Angeles continues to struggle.

How long do dogs lick their balls? Answer below...

They play lip service to the 20 team limit, it keeps the purists calm, but I think it's a ruse.

There are 30+ teams in the other major NA sports.

Answer: They'll keep going as long as they can.

My worst fear is that you will be proven to be right on this. I have a bad feeling that as long as the league can demand huge franchise fees and people continue to pay them, there is no limit to expansion.

Would there be a Canadian addition?

I have my doubts, but if the league wanted a fourth Canadian club, Calgary and Ottawa would make the most sense to me.

[habstfc]

There are at least five teams not being supported right now. Dallas, Colorado Columbus, chivas and new england. Sort them out first or move some of them. Chicago isn't exactly packing them in either.

[Fort York Redcoat]

There are at least five teams not being supported right now. Dallas, Colorado Columbus, chivas and new england. Sort them out first or move some of them. Chicago isn't exactly packing them in either.

It's all relative. Anywhere else in the world this would take of itself but with rev share/ single entity propping these cities are fine (minus Chivas). I feel sorry for the small but great support that devote so much effort to a failing cause.

[sashavukelich]

There are at least five teams not being supported right now. Dallas, Colorado Columbus, chivas and new england. Sort them out first or move some of them. Chicago isn't exactly packing them in either.

Having been to a NE Revs game, they still get about 14k to their games, no way they move. Also their ownership are looking for a downtown boston site for a SSS.

Dallas, also better supported than people think. Chivas for me....they gotta go. I say remake Chivas into "LA Espanyol" and make it a inclusive team open to anyone with Latino heritage of any kind (and us north americans)

[brad]

20 teams for me is the magic number for several reasons - it leaves the talent pool fairly undiluted, it encourages support on a regional level, and it stops expansion being a primary economic driver for the league.

Now, 24 clubs is definitely doable for MLS, but I know we can kiss any possibility of a balance home/away schedule goodbye with 24 teams in competition. I'm probably not what people would consider a strict purist when it comes to soccer, but for me a balanced schedule is something we really should strive for as the current playoff format and plethora of extra-league tournaments makes more individual matches all that more important to win.

As the number of teams increase, I think we will increasingly see a focus on the conferences and East will play West a lot less frequently. The purist in me would like a balanced schedule. However, decreasing the amount of travel might have a positive impact on the quality of the league overall. We are a fairly unique league in regards to the amount of distance teams need to cover.

I definitely agree the league needs to seriously look at the chronically under-performing teams and figure out exit strategies for those franchises. There's little sense in my mind of granting a franchise to Sacramento or San Diego while Chivas in Los Angeles continues to struggle.

So long as they keep their paws off one chronically under-performing team North of the Border (I know you meant financially, and we are in a better state than a lot of other teams - but couldn't resist)

My worst fear is that you will be proven to be right on this. I have a bad feeling that as long as the league can demand huge franchise fees and people continue to pay them, there is no limit to expansion.

I think this is the case. The other thing to consider is that the real money is in TV, having entire markets unrepresented by a team can hurt there. The national networks are going to be far more interested in a league that has coverage across the major markets as opposed to missing a bunch of them.

I have my doubts, but if the league wanted a fourth Canadian club, Calgary and Ottawa would make the most sense to me.

Garber has said recently that another team in Canada is not a focus. I'm sure his head would turn if someone ponied up a stadium and expansion fee though. I suspect that Canada is not a priority is Canadian teams won't help him with TV deals with US networks. I also suspect that having Canadian teams make a run in the playoffs is probably a nightmare for him (an All Canadian MLS Cup final would be a ratings nightmare).

[Oldtimer]

I can't see another Canadian team. I think D-2 (NASL) or a Canadian D-3 league is the way to go for smaller markets.

I also don't see 30 teams. If anything, one of the huge differences between MLS and the old NASL is how they treated expansion. I expect slow growth to 24. Anything more than that would be moving into marginal markets.

[Globetrotter]

I dreamed of the day that we could say we finished 24th in the league.

[prizby]

I must admit, I have no idea how Columbus makes money. Consistently under perform, in a small market, with little growth potential. I suppose that's why the Hunts are, its rumoured, finally bringing in some local ownership tomorrow. I could see them moving in 5 years, probably to a Southern city like Atlanta.

revenue sharing


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24 teams could almost make a 'balanced' schedule

2 conferences of 12 = play everyone in your own conference twice (22 games) and play everyone in the other conference once (12 games) = 34 games

Why can't MLS expand like the J-League did and just create a 2nd division? the talent difference isn't too much (Shinji Kawgawa came from a 2nd division team straight to Dortmund)...I don't see why they can't follow the way Japan has grown its league as a way to do things over here.

[kodiakTFC]

I've always liked the idea of a 24 team league with two conferences of 12. You play home and away versus your own conference and you play the other conference once (half home, half away). This works out to that magic MLS number of 34 games.

[Mark in Ottawa]

24 teams could almost make a 'balanced' schedule

2 conferences of 12 = play everyone in your own conference twice (22 games) and play everyone in the other conference once (12 games) = 34 games

This seems like the most logical scheme to start with.
Allow smaller markets the time to build NASL teams and fan following at the same time.

And then somewhere down the road institute a North American FA Cup and way down the road ...
Cross League Promotion/Relegation with the financial transfer/cushions built in.

[prizby]

This seems like the most logical scheme to start with.
Allow smaller markets the time to build NASL teams and fan following at the same time.

And then somewhere down the road institute a North American FA Cup and way down the road ...
Cross League Promotion/Relegation with the financial transfer/cushions built in.

i don't think NASL will be the 2nd division...MLS will create their own 2nd division...don't think there will be a north american FA Cup either; not with the US Open Cup

[Mark in Ottawa]

i don't think NASL will be the 2nd division...MLS will create their own 2nd division...don't think there will be a north american FA Cup either; not with the US Open Cup

That's ok. If MLS starts there own second div. it will probably end up with the strongest/best established clubs from the NASL.

The US Open Cup can generate a US "Champ" and here in Canada we can start up a more inclusive version of the Nutralite or Voyageurs Cup to determine our national Champ.

Then a North American cup game would seem a natural.

[Haddy]

HI say remake Chivas into "LA Espanyol" and make it a inclusive team open to anyone with Latino heritage of any kind (and us north americans)

Ya that is still discrimination. Not gonna fly.

This seems like the most logical scheme to start with.
Allow smaller markets the time to build NASL teams and fan following at the same time.

And then somewhere down the road institute a North American FA Cup and way down the road ...
Cross League Promotion/Relegation with the financial transfer/cushions built in.

North America is still years and years away from appreciating the relegation / promotion concept. In a culture that typically pays to watch scoring and success, relegation is a death sentence for a franchise. One day, I'd love to see it. But not for a couple decades if ever.

[prizby]

North America is still years and years away from appreciating the relegation / promotion concept. In a culture that typically pays to watch scoring and success, relegation is a death sentence for a franchise. One day, I'd love to see it. But not for a couple decades if ever.

japan didn't have promotion/relegation until jleague 2

they got a 2nd division running in 7 years; we are way behind the ball here

[Fort York Redcoat]

japan didn't have promotion/relegation until jleague 2

they got a 2nd division running in 7 years; we are way behind the ball here

Japan. North America. You really don't see the difference?

[TOBOR !]

Due to the size of North America, an MLS construct of two divisions with promotion / relegation would still need to be done with East / West conferences in mind.

Say, clubs move up and down between East 1 and East 2, with the same going on in the West. Table toppers of West 1 and East 1 play for all the marbles at the end of the year.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Due to the size of North America, an MLS construct of two divisions with promotion / relegation would still need to be done with East / West conferences in mind.

Say, clubs move up and down between East 1 and East 2, with the same going on in the West. Table toppers of West 1 and East 1 play for all the marbles at the end of the year.

And 20 owners (well a little less than 20) agreeing to possible relegation. Imagine the above teams attendance...

Not that I'd stand in the way of promo/rel. I prefer it as well.

[Haddy]

There are at least five teams not being supported right now. Dallas, Colorado Columbus, chivas and new england. Sort them out first or move some of them. Chicago isn't exactly packing them in either.

The first four teams you mentioned seem to suffer from misguided ownership while the Revs suffer from that as well as a lack of a good stadium.

But Columbus is announcing a new owner today. So with the league's health in mind, here's hoping they turn things around.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/articl...ports-ventures

[brad]

And 20 owners (well a little less than 20) agreeing to possible relegation. Imagine the above teams attendance...

Not that I'd stand in the way of promo/rel. I prefer it as well.

And the potential drop in revenue from sponsors & TV being less interested in 2nd tier football. I can't see the MLS wanting two tiers. How does it benefit them?

[PopePouri]

The first four teams you mentioned seem to suffer from misguided ownership while the Revs suffer from that as well as a lack of a good stadium.

But Columbus is announcing a new owner today. So with the league's health in mind, here's hoping they turn things around.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/articl...ports-ventures

Possible move elsewhere on the horizon for the Crew?

[TOBOR !]

Possible move elsewhere on the horizon for the Crew?

Hmm.. if not a move to the Bay Area, at least a rebranding has to be on the table.

[PopePouri]

It was my first thought when they announced the news. I doubt they'll be able to grow the Crew brand in a place like Columbus and even a rebrand will only draw a handful.

Unless, they invest heavily in a downtown stadium with all the bells and whistles and rethink their season ticket prices which I highly doubt.