We may get a roof after all????

[TFC07]

I disagree. I watch the local ctv news every night in Toronto and argos get way more coverage. They will have a story from the argos practices at least once a week about an upcoming game or injury, player interviews etc. I don't think I've ever seen that with tfc. I am sure they will have a story if urutti signs but in general they only show a highlights from tfc games usually near the end of the sports broadcast.

Point proven. CTV and TSN are both own by Bell. lol Notice how non-Bell sports channel (Sportsnet) don't give much coverage to Argos? Even local sports media(FAN 590) don't talk about them (we don't even have a CFL show in Toronto sports radio like we do with soccer?).

[Marc"2L"]

TV numbers are higher in Toronto for argos than tfc.

Again, DEMOGRAPHICS.
How many of my friends have cable...?
Not many.

edit: not claiming I represent the majority, but I know a lot of people my age that will forgo cable and just require an Internet connection. If you're under 30, you probably do as well.

[Marc"2L"]

You should try and catch a youth football game in Toronto. The players come from a vary wide ethnic base. Football is a world sport.

Absolutely.
Gridiron? Not so much.

[ag futbol]

Again, DEMOGRAPHICS.
How many of my friends have cable...?
Not many.

edit: not claiming I represent the majority, but I know a lot of people my age that will forgo cable and just require an Internet connection. If you're under 30, you probably do as well.

Meh. I'd fully concede that the Argos are pulling in more currently than TFC is. Now that being said, business isn't necessary where you are but where you're going / what your potential is. I'd have a hard time reasoning the potential of a Toronto CFL team is above that of a well run MLS squad.

But they can feel free to do as they like. They can just do it outside of the confines of one of the only professional soccer stadium in the city, that plays host to numerous events outside of just TFC. Let them go to the city and try to strike a deal for their own stadium outside of BMO.

[habstfc]

Point proven. CTV and TSN are both own by Bell. lol Notice how non-Bell sports channel (Sportsnet) don't give much coverage to Argos? Even local sports media(FAN 590) don't talk about them (we don't even have a CFL show in Toronto sports radio like we do with soccer?).

I don't believe there is a conspiracy to not have tfc stories on the news because of ownership. TSN have an interest in tfc as well, they show games on tsn don't they? Watch the news tonight tfc will barely be mentioned even on sportsnet who showed the game no less. I listen to the fan 590 throughout the day the argos are talked about all the time especially the day before or on gameday.

[Marc"2L"]

What ag said, it's really about potential and where things are going.

[SoccMan2]

Where do I start "CFL" I just want to say in terms of youth football compared to youth soccer in terms of numbers not even close. The number of kids that play youth soccer compared to youth football is so so much greater it's not even a contest are you kidding me. Your argument that the only reason so many kids play soccer is because it's the parents that decide what their kids play, wow what a revelation. The majority of time no matter what the sport it is the parent that decides what sport to put their kid into not just soccer but any sport. Youth football is not a sport that many parents put their kids into here in the GTA and in many parts of Canada. When it comes to youth sports soccer, hockey and basketball are king with baseball a distant 4th, youth football even further further back in terms of registration numbers, go look up the numbers "CFL" it's easy to find. I will grant you that the Argos do much better TV numbers in terms of ratings than TFC, however, for a team that get's so much more coverage in the newspapers on TV and on the radio they should be getting at least 35,000 a game to the Rogers center, however, they have a hard time getting 20,000. Moreover, remember the Argos only play like what 9 home games and they can't get at least 30,000 to only 9 home games. TFC play something like 16 home games and even without the media coverage the Argos get are still getting close to 18000 a game and that's after being complete crap since 2007!

[tfcmanu]

Where do I start "CFL" I just want to say in terms of youth football compared to youth soccer in terms of numbers not even close. The number of kids that play youth soccer compared to youth football is so so much greater it's not even a contest are you kidding me. Your argument that the only reason so many kids play soccer is because it's the parents that decide what their kids play, wow what a revelation. The majority of time no matter what the sport it is the parent that decides what sport to put their kid into not just soccer but any sport. Youth football is not a sport that many parents put their kids into here in the GTA and in many parts of Canada. When it comes to youth sports soccer, hockey and basketball are king with baseball a distant 4th, youth football even further further back in terms of registration numbers, go look up the numbers "CFL" it's easy to find. I will grant you that the Argos do much better TV numbers in terms of ratings than TFC, however, for a team that get's so much more coverage in the newspapers on TV and on the radio they should be getting at least 35,000 a game to the Rogers center, however, they have a hard time getting 20,000. Moreover, remember the Argos only play like what 9 home games and they can't get at least 30,000 to only 9 home games. TFC play something like 16 home games and even without the media coverage the Argos get are still getting close to 18000 a game and that's after being complete crap since 2007!

That's all folks, Well said!

[habstfc]

Where do I start "CFL" I just want to say in terms of youth football compared to youth soccer in terms of numbers not even close. The number of kids that play youth soccer compared to youth football is so so much greater it's not even a contest are you kidding me. Your argument that the only reason so many kids play soccer is because it's the parents that decide what their kids play, wow what a revelation. The majority of time no matter what the sport it is the parent that decides what sport to put their kid into not just soccer but any sport. Youth football is not a sport that many parents put their kids into here in the GTA and in many parts of Canada. When it comes to youth sports soccer, hockey and basketball are king with baseball a distant 4th, youth football even further further back in terms of registration numbers, go look up the numbers "CFL" it's easy to find. I will grant you that the Argos do much better TV numbers in terms of ratings than TFC, however, for a team that get's so much more coverage in the newspapers on TV and on the radio they should be getting at least 35,000 a game to the Rogers center, however, they have a hard time getting 20,000. Moreover, remember the Argos only play like what 9 home games and they can't get at least 30,000 to only 9 home games. TFC play something like 16 home games and even without the media coverage the Argos get are still getting close to 18000 a game and that's after being complete crap since 2007!

Yes but to be fair to the Argos they play a very eratic schedule. They played on a Tuesday night last week. TFC mainly play Saturdays and the very odd Wednesday.

[OgtheDim]

Dear CFL,

I am a long time CFL fan. TiCat from before the 72 Grey cup. Had Argo season tickets when we moved here just to see games. So, I know CFL.

And I think you are wrong. Others have looked at it generally. Let me look at what you said point by point.

You are right. Football fans in Canada are hardcore. And unlike the parents and kids who play soccer, they go out and attend games, may it be local or professional.

The issue here is for potential in Ontario. CFL fans are NOT local football fans. You don't see people show up in their hundreds to see either soccer or football at the non top league level. (I don't count CIS ball, and I'll explain later)

..The Argos are suffering through what TFC will, if they don't start winning. Losing in any sport kills.

Oh please. The Argos have been a bad draw ever since they moved into Skydome, with the exception of the John Candy years, and those were wildly papered. Win or lose, 14-28K show up, much of them papered. Losing is not the issue.

I am always amazed when soccer people underestimate Canadian Football. There are two CFL teams in the region that have a long tradition say about 90 years longer than TFC. TV ratings for CFL is way way way way way above MLS games.

Yup, and will for a long time. TV ratings for soccer for anything other then the WC are bad. EPL, MLS, Seria A, La Liga....all crud. TSN does a really good job at selling CFL on TV. To the point where people prefer to stay home rather then go to a game in Toronto.

There are about 10 university football programs that hands down outdraw their university's soccer programs by about 500 to 1 Go to an OVFL youth football game and you'll find about on average about 400 people per game.

Well we are talking support at the CFL vs MLS level, but I suppose there is potential.

About the university football. That is ALL school spirit. All of it. Its fall, its tradition, and all that support is not translated to CFL. When people leave school, probably 97% of them never see a university game again.

As for OVFL, where are you getting those figures from? I've never seen that. Proof please.

Just because because a 11 year plays soccer at the request of mum or dad, does not make them a fan of the game. Nor does it make mum and dad ticket holders.

Excuse me!

Are you seriously suggesting kids only play soccer because there parents want them too!?!

Buddy, kids play games for many reasons...family, friends, they just like it, school spirit. If you think kids play football because of reasons other then family well.....

Going to football game is a Canadian experience for families.

Uh, no. CFL tickets are DARNED expensive for a family of 4. As is TFC. And in Toronto, the CFL was and remains not a family oriented game. And, ultimately, we are still talking about the Toronto market here.

TFC pissed away that chance and it's gone. It made BMO unwelcoming to families and so have a few "hardcore" supporters who felt entitled because they wore scarves to games.

But lets indulge you on this bit of trolling for a moment.

You see who comes out to MLS games across North America?

It ain't families.

It ain't soccer moms.

MLS tried Soccer Moms and families.

DID

NOT

WORK

So, what you are suggesting is MLS should give up on supporter culture, which actually brings in people who spend money in order to chase families....who don't show up anyways.

If there is going to be a roof MLSE will have to pony up for it.

Well duh......and if there is going to be a football stadium, the Argos should pay for it.

And If I was a soccer guy, that is who I would be upset with- MLSE. Not the players or the supporter groups, but that MLSE blew it massively. That buzz that was there after Danny scored.... It's dead.

Um, you think people on here like what MLSE did with Mo and Mariner?

As for the buzz...dead? No. The potential is still there. As for the CFL....no buzz either, last heard during the Rocket Ishmael days is long gone. I was around for Damon Allen. No Buzz. This year, right after a Grey Cup...no CFL buzz. The potential for CFL is even worse then MLS.

And MLSE by aiming everything at the hip trendy 20 crowd-- only works if going to the game is hip and trendy- which requires winning. Losing is never trendy.

20? Supporter culture is 28+ around North America. And the marketing, if you bothered to look, is at people with money who support the game.

If there more and more empty seats, those seats are being abandoned by those 20ish pasbt blue drinking puffs.

Who the heck drinks pabst blue ribbon? I'm pushing 50 and even I know hipsters don't drink that stuff this year.

If you are going to attempt to troll about hipsters, at least get current.

Its all about local craft beers now. (Although a lot of people on here seem to like Bud, so ur whole attempt at a stereotype is kinda out to lunch)

And until you see 1000 people at a Ontario Cup U-17 game between Oakville and Pickering- soccer is losing-

So what you are saying is 1000 people at a youth game (and I've never heard of that in football) translates into CFL support?

Uh..no.

thanks to MLSE and it's BS marketing of the team. They left the grassroots game to it's own devices. And let's face it. The OSA is a joke.

So what you are saying is soccer mom marketing = grass roots support? Uh, no.

And the CFL in Ontario has been sooooooooooo caring about local football?!?!

They tried to create a BRAND and not a club. They have created ZERO connection to the soccer community in the GTA.

Umm.......do you even know what a soccer club is these days? Club is brand.

Others on here who are connected to local soccer would be able to better critique your point about zero connection but when, if ever, did Don Matthews do a coaches clinic?

And that's why the next stadium built in this city will be for the Argos. And it will be packed with families. Dads, Granddads and moms with kids in tow. Why? they always pay the bills.

again about the paying the bills thing. Buddy, are you like 50 or something? Do you have any clue how much money people in their 20's and 30's have?

Oh, and BTW, I was in section 111 last home game.

Dads, Grandmas, kids in tow sprinkled among the 20-60 year old men and women.

As for the stadium, I really hope you are not suggesting that the city pay for it? Cause that would be the opposite of those who "always pay the bills".


On another point, I see kids all over BMO. About the same % as at Argo games.



I like the CFL.

I like MLS.

But to say that the Argos have more potential because MLSE didn't market to soccer moms and because people show up to watch Western vs. Laurier.............that's just ludicrous.

[Parkdale]

am I the only one who likes being outside? As someone who used to site on the west side in the shade, let me tell you that without sun, those shoulder season games are brutal.


I'd rather keep BMO as it is, warts and all, instead of making it more appealing to the throw-ball crowd.

[habstfc]

I think it's irrelevant how many kids play soccer vs football or the reasons why. The only thing that matters is how many people either show up to games or how many people watch on tv. The cfl is way ahead in tv numbers both locally and nationally. I like mls and cfl as well but mls has a long way to go to match interest the cfl has tv wise. There is still a menatality amongst soccer fans when it comes to mls vs euro leagues, we all know eurosnobs who care less about tfc and mls. Last year I gave a pair of tfc tickets to my sons school as a fundraiser and they got ZERO bids just to put things in perspective as to the general interest, the ti cats tickets and leafs raptors tickets all got respectable bids.

[Fort York Redcoat]

If the Argos played in a 21,000 seat Stadium, they'd sell out. As for media attention, do you not read the papers? When has the MLS ever started a TSN news broadcast. I like both teams. I like both sports. But to say that the Argos don't get media attention is not right. We all know the Leafs will always get the most. Period. They own the city and always will. The Argos after the Jays are 3rd in terms of coverage. And deservingly so. TFC needs to make the play-offs. TFC has never had any kind of on-field success. Can anyone outside this board name 4 of this year starting players? Could the average sport fan in this city, name 1?

I quote Jack Cooke who brought the Kings to LA. When asked why the Kings weren't doing so well at the gate, considering there were 800,000 Canadians living within a hour's drive of the rink, he said " Well they probably moved because they hated hockey" SO-- All these minorities, people in soccer keep talking about , may just not be soccer fans. I've met tons of Spanish people who hate the game. Rather watch anything else. BTW- How is Chivas doing at the gate? Maybe those mexicans would rather got to UCLA football games. If you want to survive in North America, you need to get families out. PERIOD. And if you don't, the tax payer won't build your roof for you. I stick to my original point, TFC marketing to the 20ish crowd is going to kill the team. Crowds are slowly shrinking away. It needs a reboot.

AND I am LOLing at the idea that the Argos don't matter that they are not owned by MLSE. Man. I bet 99% of this board would have parade the day MLSE sells the team. It's the kiss of death. I for one would embrace David Bradley as the TFC owner. He may not know soccer, but at least he knows sports. And gives a shit whether the team wins or not and lets the people he's hired, manage.

TFC and the Argos are not enemies. Both teams have a common one. The Leafs. It will be interesting to see how Ottawa manages it's CFL and NASL teams. I bet the common ownership helps both teams.

Then I'd be more careful framing your posts "CFL". This thread is about a new roof at BMO.

You should try and catch a youth football game in Toronto. The players come from a vary wide ethnic base. Football is a world sport.

Gridiron is as Worldly as MLS is popular on Canadian tv. The difference being the last 100 plus years one sport grew on the pitch while one grew on television. Go London Monarchs?

I think it's irrelevant how many kids play soccer vs football or the reasons why. The only thing that matters is how many people either show up to games or how many people watch on tv. The cfl is way ahead in tv numbers both locally and nationally. I like mls and cfl as well but mls has a long way to go to match interest the cfl has tv wise. There is still a menatality amongst soccer fans when it comes to mls vs euro leagues, we all know eurosnobs who care less about tfc and mls. Last year I gave a pair of tfc tickets to my sons school as a fundraiser and they got ZERO bids just to put things in perspective as to the general interest, the ti cats tickets and leafs raptors tickets all got respectable bids.

Irrelevant? It's irrelevant how many kids play the game? Who will play the game next if not our own kids?

The CFL knows the answer. And let me know the next starting Canadian Quarterback...

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yes but to be fair to the Argos they play a very eratic schedule. They played on a Tuesday night last week. TFC mainly play Saturdays and the very odd Wednesday.

That's not a reason but an excuse. The reason they play that unfair schedule is because the league isn't popular enough to mimic the NFL NCAA model and have the majority of games on the same day.

That regularity breeds tradition. Like mid-Sat games. Where it's just as loud as a night game but for Champions League nights.

[TFC07]

One thing I need to point out here: I am no way anti-CFL (I prefer CFL over NFL) and I feel in long term that both CFL and Canada Soccer can co-exist with each other (we need each other to build and utilize our stadiums all over Canada). That being said, BMO field was intended to be mainly used as a soccer stadium. Argos blew their chances and have no one but themselves to blame for being very short-sighted to go back to Rogers Centre when they had the chance to get their own stadium back in 2007. Don't blame soccer fans (remember we're taxpayers too) for Argos failure to get their own stadium.

[Fort York Redcoat]

One thing I need to point out here: I am no way anti-CFL (I prefer CFL over NFL) and I feel in long term that both CFL and Canada Soccer can co-exist with each other (we need each other to build and utilize our stadiums all over Canada). That being said, BMO field was intended to be mainly used as a soccer stadium. Argos blew their chances and have no one but themselves to blame for being very short-sighted to go back to Rogers Centre when they had the chance to get their own stadium back in 2007. Don't blame soccer fans (remember we're taxpayers too) for Argos failure to get their own stadium.

I'd love to know how that preseason game at U of T happened and the feedback. Honestly the biggest tease of "what could have been" ever. There would be no debate if our roles were reversed (Argos/TFC) because we've not been propped up for the better part of a century.

[Mulder]

That's not a reason but an excuse. The reason they play that unfair schedule is because the league isn't popular enough to mimic the NFL NCAA model and have the majority of games on the same day.

Incorrect. Rogers Centre gave the Argos 11 dates to play 9 regular season home games. Last season they gave 10 dates.

[OgtheDim]

As an aside, David Braley is a tight wad but the people who really pooched that decision are no longer around. Rogers gave previous ownership a sweetheart deal that allowed the Argos to not spend a lot of money when they could have got in on a stadium either for the Pan Am or the U21 WC. Now they will be paying for that.

[Mulder]

Where do I start "CFL" I just want to say in terms of youth football compared to youth soccer in terms of numbers not even close. The number of kids that play youth soccer compared to youth football is so so much greater it's not even a contest are you kidding me. Your argument that the only reason so many kids play soccer is because it's the parents that decide what their kids play, wow what a revelation. The majority of time no matter what the sport it is the parent that decides what sport to put their kid into not just soccer but any sport. Youth football is not a sport that many parents put their kids into here in the GTA and in many parts of Canada. When it comes to youth sports soccer, hockey and basketball are king with baseball a distant 4th, youth football even further further back in terms of registration numbers, go look up the numbers "CFL" it's easy to find. I will grant you that the Argos do much better TV numbers in terms of ratings than TFC, however, for a team that get's so much more coverage in the newspapers on TV and on the radio they should be getting at least 35,000 a game to the Rogers center, however, they have a hard time getting 20,000. Moreover, remember the Argos only play like what 9 home games and they can't get at least 30,000 to only 9 home games. TFC play something like 16 home games and even without the media coverage the Argos get are still getting close to 18000 a game and that's after being complete crap since 2007!

Keep up with the Us vs Them thing Soccman,

Toronto seems to be the only city in the world that lacks overall civic pride for their sports teams.

[Huyton]

One thing I need to point out here: I am no way anti-CFL (I prefer CFL over NFL) and I feel in long term that both CFL and Canada Soccer can co-exist with each other (we need each other to build and utilize our stadiums all over Canada). That being said, BMO field was intended to be mainly used as a soccer stadium. Argos blew their chances and have no one but themselves to blame for being very short-sighted to go back to Rogers Centre when they had the chance to get their own stadium back in 2007. Don't blame soccer fans (remember we're taxpayers too) for Argos failure to get their own stadium.

Exactly. The Argos nearly killed soccer in this city when they backed out of the shared stadium at York for the sweetheart deal they got from the Skydome. For them it was very much “Short term gain for long term pain”.

One of the reasons we got a dome in the first place was because the premier at the time, Bill Davis, was at a Grey Cup game in truly foul weather. What the Argos got was a truly groundbreaking design for a stadium that had a considerable number of features to it specifically put in place for CFL teams.

And if I remember correctly, when the National Soccer Stadium at the Exhibition grounds was voted on at Toronto City council, it was a certain councilor Ford who was against it. The City contributed $9.8 million in cash and land worth about $10 million.

TFC’s owners have a stake in their stadium, while the Argos are strictly renting. The Boatmen had their chance in 2005 and decided against it.

They made their bed…they’re going to have to lie in it. [IMG]file:///C:/Users/hillr/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/02/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]

[Huyton]

Incorrect. Rogers Centre gave the Argos 11 dates to play 9 regular season home games. Last season they gave 10 dates.

Also, doesn't the CFL generally want one game per day on the weekend to maximize exposure for the league on TV?

[Carts]

That's not a reason but an excuse. The reason they play that unfair schedule is because the league isn't popular enough to mimic the NFL NCAA model and have the majority of games on the same day.

That regularity breeds tradition. Like mid-Sat games. Where it's just as loud as a night game but for Champions League nights.

That's not true...

The CFL television numbers are consistently EXCELLENT! A bad game, with a bad matchup, on a bad night, will bring in 500,000 min - a decent one 800,000+, playoffs into the millions, Grey Cup reaching 4-5 million...

And of that regular audience, it's proven to be an excellent lead in viewership.. The reason they play '1-game-per-day' type of schedule on Thurs-Fri-Sat is to use that lead in to SportsCentre... If 20% of the audience sticks around, you suddenly have over 100,000 people watching SC (which regularly happens after CFL games)...

CFL numbers are also strong coast-to-coast - and have very little regional spikes during games. Scheduling the games at the same time would only fragment your total audience, and wouldn't be smart scheduling. CFL fans, more than any other sport, watch all games - not just their home team. Obviously, with only 4-games per week, it's doable (a Blue Jay fan simply couldn't watch every MLB game - there just isn't enough hours in the day), but CFL fans are very loyal to the broadcasting rights holder - moreso than any other sport...

The reason for the Argos terrible home schedule is the Blue Jays. Their lease is basically free, and therefore they simply get 'leftover' dates - in fact, concerts/motorcross/kids-midway-week will get higher priority than the Argos at the RC (the Tuesday night being the perfect example)...

I don't want the Argos in BMO Field - but don't for a second think that the CFL isn't a massive TV property in this country... It brings in big numbers, and has loyal viewers (they watch the coverage of the league after the games are over), a perfect pairing when acquiring, scheduling, and broadcasting a sports property...

[Mulder]

Ex What the Argos got was a truly groundbreaking design for a stadium that had a considerable number of features to it specifically put in place for CFL teams.

Slope of the sideline seating is horrible. Wasn't designed for any sort of football. Don't kid yourself by thinking it was designed for CFL. The only thing they designed for CFL wise was to make sure the field fit.

That being said, If they where to renovate Skydome so that the sideline seats your not miles from the field and not shouting in someone else's ear, it would help revitalize the CFL in Toronto. It's like going to the movies before stadium seating. God that was awful.

And if I remember correctly, when the National Soccer Stadium at the Exhibition grounds was voted on at Toronto City council, it was a certain councilor Ford who was against it. The City contributed $9.8 million in cash and land worth about $10 million.

Taxpayers got fleeced, MLSE contributes 18 million. Then sells naming rights for 27 million. Even after putting in grass and stadium upgrades MLSE walks away up millions.

[TFC07]

Taxpayers got fleeced, MLSE contributes 18 million. Then sells naming rights for 27 million. Even after putting in grass and stadium upgrades MLSE walks away up millions.

How so? MLSE bought naming rights from city (for $10 million?) and then sold it BMO. That's just smart business.

Blame the city if anything in this case.

[OgtheDim]

Its a bad baseball yard for all but the seats in the second tier and above behind home plate, worse football one and really bad for soccer. Its only redeeming features ar the retractable roof and the location. The sooner it was torn down the better.

But Rogers has decided to make a go of it, given the investment to build a new stadium would be close to a $1 billion and no government is going to pony up that much for Rogers.

[Red Rat]

We don't need a roof, we need a team!!!

[habstfc]

[/QUOTE]
Irrelevant? It's irrelevant how many kids play the game? Who will play the game next if not our own kids?

[/QUOTE] It's irrelevant because pretty much none of those youth soccer players that play the game in the tens of thousands obviously don't watch tfc or mls on tv.

[PopePouri]

We don't need a roof, we need a team!!!

Why not both?

[Super]

We don't need a roof, we need a team!!!

By your logic you could say we don't even need a stadium. All we need is a team. Might as well play the games on the beach.

Personally I'd like to have a nice stadium. And I'm sure our management is able to handle more than one issue at a time. Otherwise it's probably time we get rid of them and hire proper football management people who can juggle more than just building a team.

Payne made it clear that he understands that it's almost impossible to create a proper football atmosphere without a roof - unless the ENTIRE crowd is wildly into the game. But that's only something you see when a team is either a) new, or b) winning titles. Either way, I'd like to see a good atmosphere ALWAYS. We haven't had that for years. A roof would at least have helped with the atmosphere. Ours is by far the worst in the league - except maybe Chivas. We need a roof BADLY!

[Fort York Redcoat]

Irrelevant? It's irrelevant how many kids play the game? Who will play the game next if not our own kids?

It's irrelevant because pretty much none of those youth soccer players that play the game in the tens of thousands obviously don't watch tfc or mls on tv.

Pretty much none means some. You're comparing tv ratings from 60 years vs. 7. This is the first gen growing up with this league in their house but they've all played the sport. "Pretty much none" of kids play gridiron before they play footie.