Neither Mariner or Winter deserved to keep their jobs. Winter's track record in league play was even worse than Nelsen's, and many of those losses were complete blowouts. How soon we forget...
Neither Mariner or Winter deserved to keep their jobs. Winter's track record in league play was even worse than Nelsen's, and many of those losses were complete blowouts. How soon we forget...
Absolutely that whole experience is unforgettable, even if you are no longer a fan now that was just one hell of a run.Originally Posted by Oldtimer
An elimination game, on the road, to a side we weren't doing well against.....everyone and their black cat was thinking, "im gonna be hopeful, but in the back of my mind we're as dead as a Stark"
Then we paste their asses 3-0 like we're the boss? WE FUCKING RE-DEFINED WHO WE ARE. Right then and there. We said in our performance, that we aren't pushovers, we win big games on the road. Then we showed those cunts from LA, in full strength, that we aren't afraid of you and put 2 nice goals past them before Beckham's hair style got messy. Then we faced adversity because they put 2 past us and got edge, so we went INTO THEIR FUCKING HOUSE AND DID IT AGAIN.
That moment, we changed what Toronto FC was. We no longer were a punching bag.
Then we got unlucky on the 9 game run, outside of about 2 of the 9, I thought we competed despite the results (unlike today where we are just shit). We then went to clown shorts and redefined ourselves once more, "we are who we used to be". And there we remain.
^ That's the thing, we started to feel some pride during that run. Then came the 9-run loss and the "3 year plan" went down the drain. What we now know is that Mr. Shorty-Pants was undermining Winter with Anselmi, and had scuttled negotiations with some players to set up Winter to fail.
Who knows what would have happened if the course had been stayed? Could Winter have turned things around? We don't know. However, the right thing now is to stay the course.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I give him a lot of credit for the CCL. But to me that does not offset being beyond dreadful in your domestic league.
to be clear I'm in no way thinking we should turf Nelsen or Payne - just a feeling of being totally flat after last night and remembering how angry i was when Winter was let go - I phoned the FO and vented vehemently - anyway we'll see if signings pick me/it up or not but last night was a dreadful experience - and i know there's little point wondering what if....but anyway - i don't think i'll be F5ing much today.
The Dutch contingent can't be totally absolved due to Mariner's incompetence. They were really struggling to understand the league and to adapt in a way PM can't fully be responsible for.
I fully agree with them being fired. It was year two, they had time to bring in the players they wanted, we should have been well above that level of futility. The disappointment is that the club didn't continue on with the same vision. That would have reduced the amount of player turnover needed and would have built on the few things that were actually done properly.
This is everything I want to say. Also: I lol'd.
This is my feelings exactly.
The Dutch experiment was off to a slow start, Javier Martina was a bust besides that brace against Portland. Once they got rolling, Soolsma was excellent with his little toe drag on the wings, and Danny K burying goals left and right.
There was some promise. The 0-9 start to the 2012 season was disheartening to any and all fans of this team and completely derailed things. The reason, I believe, why Winter and Co didnt make more moves to bring in players sooner is because he was waiting for the summer transfer window to open. Winter loved his European players, and I feel like he was waiting for summer before making a splash. He may not have had a DP spot open at the time, but to think he was absolutely clueless about who to bring in wouldn't make sense. He was a very calculated person and understood the game. I think he had a plan...nevermind, I KNOW he had a plan. Things got out of control early on in the season, and he fell on his sword.
I think if he was given until that summer...things would've improved greatly. No one can speculate on who his potential targets would've been, but I'm sure there were more than a few.
Just curious, has any other MLS team tried this kind of 'big philosophy' approach?
Not sure this is accurate; you're always going to have one or two players that maybe aren't getting time and are a little unsettled.. but, I don't think he lost the dressing-room. If he did, then even more praise is due his way for picking things up, after one or two sit-downs with all the players being permitted to speak freely on what they felt the problem was.. as they went on to win the next two or three games, in all competitions, following a rough-patch. He was a very humble and principled guy -- firm when he needed to be.
I don't think there's any questioning that he cared and continues to care most for this club than any coach we've had and you could always see how filled with glee and proud he was to be at the helm, seeming, now, to always be keeping an eye on us and staying connected; I have to believe that we could have benefited more than we did from all his passion, certainly if Mariner was not Mariner. As I've mentioned elsewhere, he might have at some point hit a ceiling and not be the one to take us forward, from there.. but, if that is true, it was certainly not when we let him go.
I agree with Oldtimer on staying the course, but it's just depressing to think on what could have been.
It's starts to sound like excuses, but we lost, arguably, our best player to injury, in our captain. I remember that players -- not just the opposition keepers -- were saving our shots on goal with the backs of their necks and knees -- it was insane how unlucky we were. Through it all, I really never felt like we couldn't score a goal, the way I am shocked if we do, now.
*sigh*
Well they're labelling Caleb Porter's 433 "Porterball" but he's publicly come out to say 'no, it's just discipline' already to put a kibosh on all that nonsense.
agree.
Winter was to stubborn with the 4-3-3 formation. If it isn't working, than do something else.
Mariner... was just garbage.
Would be nice to get an experienced manager for once..... just once...
For a time I wanted Winter gone, I figured it couldn't be worse... how wrong I was...
I have been told that Winter had 'locker room problems'
I think he also likely didn't have the ability to do as he liked with staff.
If both of those things continued, it wouldn't have mattered if he stayed or left.
If however, he had the ability to do as he liked and had free reign of the club, I think we would be in a much better position right now. Maybe we would have some players here on loan from Ajax and I can only believe that he would have eventually gotten the pieces right and put together a squad to do what he wanted to do and had, at the very least, some exciting football for us.
WE DID IT!
Pure speculation on my part but if I had to guess on the locker room problems I'd say that it was likely the Mariner sympathizers on the roster. The guys that didn't like the style of play that Winter wanted to play and they had a shoulder to cry on in Mariner. I'd also guess that they didn't want to play that way because they couldn't.
I'm really trying to let go of the whole implementation, and subsequent dismantling of the new philosophy that came with the Dutch regime. It's what I wanted for TFC and the CMNT from day one and we had it, and it was snatched away in favour of a terrible coach/gm with an archaic view of football.
Now we have some hybrid of I don't know what yet. Half a season in and I don't know what we will represent. What style of play we wanna have. All I know is that we have a VERY experience MLS guy at the helm and that's comforting. What isn't comforting is that the same very experienced guy has chosen a player to play the part of coach.
Many complained about how inexperienced Winter was as a coach. Well we now have someone that is WAY less experienced than Winter was. But it's okay because Payne picked him? God I hope he's right.
Agree with this 100%
Such a short sighted view to let Winter go when they did - even shorter sighted view to hire Mariner as replacement.
Having Winter and Mariner on the same management team was trying to mix oil with water. Easily one of the worst decisions this FO has ever made.
Cap management was a big Winter problem and so was his evaluation of talent. He was saying how quality Iro was. Everyone forget this?
Also he was guilty of either crazy talk, being unrealistic, or lying to the fans and possibly even to himself. People are going nuts now because Nelsen is still mentioning playoffs. When Winter was here he was saying we were the better team and outplayed our opposition (for 9 matches ) including when we lost 3-1 at home to DCU and were already on a hefty winless skid. His idea was good but not for the way the salary cap is structured in MLS. With $3M you couldn't get good enough players to play his style effectively and with what we had it was easy to shut down. I wanted it work but it never would have.
What kills me is that we were only months away from marrying a decent philosophy and style (Winter) with a proper GM (Payne).
The W-L record meant nothing to me. Winter had a plan and a vision. It would have taken quite some time, potentially 5-10 years but the result could have been TFC coming closer to European cities.
Instead we elected to get back on the treadmill of MLS re-hashes. How does this league expect to get anywhere when we are just recycling the same players, management and ideas?
We have to teach our kids in the city of Toronto how to play soccer properly. Until we do that, nothing else matters. And to do that, you need something to emulate. Something worth while and professional to emulate.
Sure, we can keep trying to sign stop-gap, 1 or 2 year washed up vets but ultimately they will get you no where. The dream is to field an 11 of players from the city of Toronto. Then we can be called a real football club.
Don't disagree with the cap management point.
On Iro, I think that Winter didn't want to throw Iro under the bus. Being a former player I think he would have know that the media isn't the place you go to criticize a players ability. If he did that he would lose all trust of his players. (as a side note: how do you think the current TFC players took to the comments from Nelsen on O'Dea's contract?)
Looking at the type of centreback Winter coveted (could play defensively but was also good on the ball) I find it very hard to believe that Iro was a player he sought after. Iro seems to fit the Mariner vision of player much more than Winter.
On the second point I think that is where his initiative with the academy was to come into play. Finding players that had the skill set he was looking for on the open market to fit in under the cap was near impossible but making them would've been an achievable goal.
I am assuming you mean GTA since our best players come from 905 region not 416 area these days.
How long have you been watching the MLS, and do you watch any other teams besides TFC? This league quality in this league has grown massively since we started playing in it.
I call nitpicking.
bingo! its amazing how people can't seem to grasp the concept that neither Winter nor Mariner were good head coaches and should ever have been given the job
It's amazing how we've always had a shit roster, yet everyone ignores the fact that Winter was the only one to ever find anything that resembled success. All while having knives stuck in his back.
inb4 we fall back on "CCL doesn't matter"
Also, by your logic, Nelson shouldn't be here either. Is that your stance?
You don't need to lecture me on the CCL thanks, I was there in LA. Winter was also the only TFC coach to lose 9 MLS games in a row to begin a season, shows how low the standards are of most people round here that its even considered he should've kept his job.
....and a year later that locker room has itself lost almost everyone....its good to see all the Winter supporters come out. Last year at this time he was the scapegoat...
If only we could go back to that Galaxy win at Skydome last year and do things different thereafter.
Nelson has been dreadful for both domestic and CCL. the difference is that "Mr. Shorty-Pants" and Anselmi didn't stay the course not because of the fans but because they were/are both morons.
Last edited by gate7; 07-18-2013 at 09:14 PM.
Nelsen has been bad - but that has no bearing on whether or not Winter should have stayed. Difference is Nelsen has a significant chunk of the cap open and Winter did not. Granted a lot of that was the result of the previous regime. No team int this league would be anything but terrible with at least 1/3 of their cap open.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote