Matchday 18: Toronto at Sporting Kansas City, Sat 13 July, 8pm

[Oldtimer]

Fact is, TFC is at the low point that comes in any MLS rebuild -- when you've gotten rid of your marketable players to free up cap space but haven't yet brought in their replacements.

Anyone that thought that this game would be anything other than a loss against one of the top teams would be dreaming.

However, the next step in the rebuild is bringing in several good key players. You'd be surprised at how a few good signings can change the nature of a team. As I said at the beginning of the year, I expect very few players who were starting for TFC at the start of the season to be starting in 2014. Many will be gone, some may be relegated to the bench, but the team will look quite different. We haven't seen Payne's team yet, not even close.

RSL went through the same type of struggles while rebuilding, and so did KC. The results came later.

[ensco]

All I can say I cant wait for my ticket rep call for renewal this year!

This year was a writeoff, who could be surprised by that?

I took the year off, but could come next year, actually.

They have now dealt with 3 of the 5 problem contracts they inherited (Frings, Hassli, Koevs, O'Dea, Ecks) ... they are obviously about the make some very significant moves.

The only thing I didn't like was moving Silva for short term assets. But most of the rest makes sense to me.

[Abou Sky]

I feel pretty damn low today. I don't know how much more I can handle.

[69Chevy396]

Fact is, TFC is at the low point that comes in any MLS rebuild -- when you've gotten rid of your marketable players to free up cap space but haven't yet brought in their replacements.

Anyone that thought that this game would be anything other than a loss against one of the top teams would be dreaming.

However, the next step in the rebuild is bringing in several good key players. You'd be surprised at how a few good signings can change the nature of a team. As I said at the beginning of the year, I expect very few players who were starting for TFC at the start of the season to be starting in 2014. Many will be gone, some may be relegated to the bench, but the team will look quite different. We haven't seen Payne's team yet, not even close.

RSL went through the same type of struggles while rebuilding, and so did KC. The results came later.

This is still very difficult to stomach. The term 'rebuild' has been used so often in relation to TFC that for me it is meaningless. How can you turn scrap metal into titanium simply by adding and removing scrap metal? In addition, the term rebuild should measured against the more accurate term: failure. Constant replacement of players during the season indicates management continuously make stupid decisions in the off season, and this includes hiring inexperienced managers

[ensco]

^We have never used the offseason properly. Payne was hired halfway through it.

Not that it mattered much, we had zero cap room.

[tfcleeds]

There was no way we were going to get a result last night, on the road against the best team in the conference, with a shorthanded squad. I expected it to be an ugly game, although not quite as ugly as that. And as much as I hope there might be some optimism surrounding this club starting next week with some incoming players, I think last night's game was finally, for me, the straw that broke the camel's back. At least as far as away games are concerned, I don't think I'll be making this club the focal point of my Saturdays, especially during the summer. There's so much more I would rather be doing than watching tripe like that. Home games, of course, are another issue, but at least for away games, I'm not going to let TFC get in the way of other stuff for the next little while.

[tfcleeds]

This franchise has been a dejavu since year two. Every season new hope, quickly killed by the reality. What is amazing that from a low start it has dug a whole. Building almost nothing positive. We are not a dogged, scrappy, physical team, we are too often 11 pylons, or eleven north american children running around like headless chickens.

I kind of blame the supporter for this, had you woken up to the reality when I did, in about year 3 and had we taken action while there was still enthusiasms for the club we may have saved this club, now, whatever dream we had may take awhile.

I think we were actually on an upwards trajectory up until the end of Year 3. Most people would point to the 5-0 loss in New York as the true turning point for this franchise when it began its real downward spiral. There was still a lot of interest surrounding the club, the stands at BMO were still relatively full, and we were on the cusp of making the playoffs. Once Mo and his old KC Wiz buddy Preki got together, that was really the beginning of the end. At least, that's the way I see it.

[jazzy]

Painfully put but hopeful

[69Chevy396]

^We have never used the offseason properly. Payne was hired halfway through it.

Not that it mattered much, we had zero cap room.

Hiring Payne was a shrewd decision, but his hiring Nelsen, Ephrain, Martinez, Cesar et al.--not so shrewd. RIM becoming Blackberry is still RIM.

[jabbronies]

^We have never used the offseason properly. Payne was hired halfway through it.
Not that it mattered much, we had zero cap room.

KP has done something no other guy before him has done - quick fixes without taking cap hit.
I'm liking his use of loan deals so far. In the past we would've been stuck with guys like Bostock. Instead we had a clean break from a guy who only performed in 1..maybe 2 matches for us. Same can be said for others as well.

[jabbronies]

On the bright side - at least we got to see the top team in MLS not play down to the worst team in MLS history.

Was a good gauge on what this league is made of.

[tfcleeds]

KP has done something no other guy before him has done - quick fixes without taking cap hit.
I'm liking his use of loan deals so far. In the past we would've been stuck with guys like Bostock. Instead we had a clean break from a guy who only performed in 1..maybe 2 matches for us. Same can be said for others as well.

The good news is, we aren't stuck with players who are totally useless. The bad news is, this club is as much a revolving door as ever. I don't see how the team can build any cohesiveness as a unit when there are so many player comings and goings. Of course, we HOPE this will begin to change starting next season, once Payne and Nelsen have had time to implement their vision.

[adam1001]

+1. I'm so sick of hearing this rebuild crap being thrown around for 7 years. It's a pathetic excuse for being a garbage team, especially considering what Montreal and Vancouver have done in their short tenure in this league.

This is still very difficult to stomach. The term 'rebuild' has been used so often in relation to TFC that for me it is meaningless. How can you turn scrap metal into titanium simply by adding and removing scrap metal? In addition, the term rebuild should measured against the more accurate term: failure. Constant replacement of players during the season indicates management continuously make stupid decisions in the off season, and this includes hiring inexperienced managers

[v00d00daddy]

KP has done something no other guy before him has done - quick fixes without taking cap hit.
I'm liking his use of loan deals so far. In the past we would've been stuck with guys like Bostock. Instead we had a clean break from a guy who only performed in 1..maybe 2 matches for us. Same can be said for others as well.

I like it too, except the Earnshaw being given a contract for the year (or beyond).

That's not a good use of money at all. He scored a couple goals on pk's and on HUGE blunders by the opposition and has done nothing since.

[v00d00daddy]

The good news is, we aren't stuck with players who are totally useless. The bad news is, this club is as much a revolving door as ever. I don't see how the team can build any cohesiveness as a unit when there are so many player comings and goings. Of course, we HOPE this will begin to change starting next season, once Payne and Nelsen have had time to implement their vision.

I really hope you're right. I've heard the "implement their vision" line before and that didn't work out well.

This season is lost. And if we start next season poorly I fully expect bad shit to happen again. We'll be hearing stuff about the mistake of hiring an inexperienced coach, bloated coaching staff, GM that is incapable of getting the players he needs/wants.

I think apathy might be the only thing that gives Nelsen and Payne the time they need if the poor play continues. They may be saved by the fact that there are fewer people who care.

Leaving the Montreal game when we gave up the 3-1 lead I was shocked to see and hear how little people were upset. You could tell people were not shocked anymore about the collapse and the minute the final whistle went most people packed up and started thinking about what they would do next. The game was already out of their minds. It was eerie to see.

[tfcleeds]

I really hope you're right. I've heard the "implement their vision" line before and that didn't work out well.

This season is lost. And if we start next season poorly I fully expect bad shit to happen again. We'll be hearing stuff about the mistake of hiring an inexperienced coach, bloated coaching staff, GM that is incapable of getting the players he needs/wants.

I think apathy might be the only thing that gives Nelsen and Payne the time they need if the poor play continues. They may be saved by the fact that there are fewer people who care.

As much as I'd like to believe "but this time, it's different", I do think Payne and Nelsen should at least be deserving of some patience from the fanbase (at least those who remain interested enough) while they get things sorted. We all knew going in, that this season would be a write-off, and the previous regime left the club in such a sorry state, cap-wise and otherwise, that even a MLS "dream team" like Bruce Arena and Sigi Schmidt probably couldn't sort out this mess in a one-year timeframe. I must admit, there are a lot of things about Nelsen I'm really not liking so far, but I just put it down to the fact that he doesn't have the pieces that he needs right now to be effective. But then again, when life gives you lemons, you make lemonade, and I've noticed other MLS clubs do that a lot better than us, while all our GMs/coaches seem to be able to do from Day 1 is make excuses for why we are so crap.

[TFC07]

Fact is, TFC is at the low point that comes in any MLS rebuild -- when you've gotten rid of your marketable players to free up cap space but haven't yet brought in their replacements.

Anyone that thought that this game would be anything other than a loss against one of the top teams would be dreaming.

However, the next step in the rebuild is bringing in several good key players. You'd be surprised at how a few good signings can change the nature of a team. As I said at the beginning of the year, I expect very few players who were starting for TFC at the start of the season to be starting in 2014. Many will be gone, some may be relegated to the bench, but the team will look quite different. We haven't seen Payne's team yet, not even close.

RSL went through the same type of struggles while rebuilding, and so did KC. The results came later.

Well said.

Once we get players coming in this week or next, then vibe surrounding around club and fanbase will change for a positive.

I didn't watch this game since I had better things to do on a Saturday night, so I can't comment on the game itself.

Btw: who started as LB in this game?

[Ivy]

Ecks

[Masked Man]

^We have never used the offseason properly. Payne was hired halfway through it.

Not that it mattered much, we had zero cap room.

The people in charge at TFC don't seem to grasp that you need to hire management people early on in the off-season so that they have time to at least make some moves. The fact that this has been done more than once, is flat out disgraceful.

I'm watching the game last night feeling nothing but a gigantic sense of deja vu if anything, watching another regime have their off-season during the season. Seeing another TFC squad going into an away building short handed, knowing that these players are in trouble with their opponent & are probably wondering deep down if they are the next ones to go. Kevin Payne deserves a chance to have the time to really reshape this club but fuck last night was all too familiar.

I will say this about Kevin Payne, if next year he is stripping his team down & we go into a game short handed like TFC did last night, like TFC have done almost every season in their existence. Then he should be gone. He has to do some good work in this transfer window & off-season. Don't give a shit who he brings in, they better be fucking good though.

[Ivy]

The people in charge at TFC don't seem to grasp that you need to hire management people early on in the off-season so that they have time to at least make some moves. The fact that this has been done more than once, is flat out disgraceful.

I'm watching the game last night feeling nothing but a gigantic sense of deja vu if anything, watching another regime have their off-season during the season. Seeing another TFC squad going into an away building short handed, knowing that these players are in trouble with their opponent & are probably wondering deep down if they are the next ones to go. Kevin Payne deserves a chance to have the time to really reshape this club but fuck last night was all too familiar.

I will say this about Kevin Payne, if next year he is stripping his team down & we go into a game short handed like TFC did last night, like TFC have done almost every season in their existence. Then he should be gone. He has to do some good work in this transfer window & off-season. Don't give a shit who he brings in, they better be fucking good though.

it isn't fair to compare this year to any of the other year. Fans have been crying for a football oriented president for years, and you finally got one - when would you bring him in?
Now that Anselmi is not in control, the new president makes moves and choices with the limited time and funds that he has... And I have to personally say that I'm impressed with all the moves and decisions that he has made...

[jabbronies]

I like it too, except the Earnshaw being given a contract for the year (or beyond).

That's not a good use of money at all. He scored a couple goals on pk's and on HUGE blunders by the opposition and has done nothing since.

I'm willing to give Earnshaw until the end of the season before I'll judge him.
I agree he should be finishing the chances he does get, but his chances are few and are for the most part in difficult spots.
At times he does make things out of next to nothing, but he has been flubbing the chances that he should be hitting.

He's 8th overall (or 11th if you don't include the tied stats) on SOG and tied for 6th (or 16th IYDITS) on Goals scored.
So he's average overall on a shit team.

As you can see I'm divided on him. If we do get some decent attacking reinforcements, then he should be getting the ball in better spots and he should be finishing a lot more.

[v00d00daddy]

it isn't fair to compare this year to any of the other year. Fans have been crying for a football oriented president for years, and you finally got one - when would you bring him in?
Now that Anselmi is not in control, the new president makes moves and choices with the limited time and funds that he has... And I have to personally say that I'm impressed with all the moves and decisions that he has made...

Sorry, but this is an excuse. Yes, we've been crying for a football oriented president for years. But we've also been crying for a good coach, good players and a good GM.

If, every time something goes sideways, we have an excuse built in we'll get nowhere. I can appreciate that Payne had a bad roster committed to way too much salary but we can still be skeptical of things that look strange. He doesn't get a pass because of his past. I have faith that he can do a good job but that doesn't mean that I don't like some of the things he's already done.

I HATE that he hired a guy like Nelsen. A player is not the coach we needed. With so many other things that had to be changed why have a guy with no experience too? Why add to the pile of obstacles?

I love the Laba addition so far. Caldwell too. But beyond that we haven't added anything of substance for the future. We've subtracted some substance too.

Jury is very much out on this incarnation of TFC. Time will tell but at some point we need to see progress. Haven't seen it yet.

[Richard]

The reason Payne had no offseason was Anselmi and Cock were about to give Mariner the keys until MLS stepped in. There was no plan whatsoever on their part, glad that idiot is not involved anymore. As for Cock, I have no idea what Payne sees in him. As for the game, its to be expected. My bet is another few more bad results coming up until we get a few players.

[jabbronies]

S
I love the Laba addition so far. Caldwell too. But beyond that we haven't added anything of substance for the future. We've subtracted some substance too.

I've also been happy with Osorio and TBH I'm glad we have a guy like Convey - a true MLS vet who can take on a small leadership role up the pitch - important especially when our Captain is at the back of the pitch.

Russel has been good off the bench. Good depth guy, but not a starter.

My verdict is also out on Brockie. We'll see what happens when these guy start to get smarter balls tossed their way (that's what she said)

[Ivy]

Sorry, but this is an excuse. Yes, we've been crying for a football oriented president for years. But we've also been crying for a good coach, good players and a good GM.

If, every time something goes sideways, we have an excuse built in we'll get nowhere. I can appreciate that Payne had a bad roster committed to way too much salary but we can still be skeptical of things that look strange. He doesn't get a pass because of his past. I have faith that he can do a good job but that doesn't mean that I don't like some of the things he's already done.

I HATE that he hired a guy like Nelsen. A player is not the coach we needed. With so many other things that had to be changed why have a guy with no experience too? Why add to the pile of obstacles?

I love the Laba addition so far. Caldwell too. But beyond that we haven't added anything of substance for the future. We've subtracted some substance too.

Jury is very much out on this incarnation of TFC. Time will tell but at some point we need to see progress. Haven't seen it yet.

Which coach would you hire?
Name me a team that was able to get consistent results during rebuild?
how can the new management bring players when they don't have cap space? Or international spots? And a full transfer window?
All the players that departed this year, and will continue departing, do not deserve or do not belong here - tell me how substance was subtracted? Silva? Show me a single game he played well this year...

the jury is out? On who? I don't understand this analogy of crucifying people before they get a chance to do anything.

[v00d00daddy]

Which coach would you hire? Based on the needs of our club (no success since inception) I'd hire a coach who is actually a coach. Not a player.
Name me a team that was able to get consistent results during rebuild? Nobody is asking for consistent results. We've won 2 games in 18. SOME results here and there would be nice.
how can the new management bring players when they don't have cap space? Or international spots? And a full transfer window? Agreed. They have to find stop gap measures until they can pursue their long term targets. I'm okay with that. I just think that they're stop gaps have been hit and miss.
All the players that departed this year, and will continue departing, do not deserve or do not belong here - tell me how substance was subtracted? Silva? Show me a single game he played well this year...You don't think he played well at ALL this year? Please. If he hasn't played ONE game well this year then can everybody.

the jury is out? On who? I don't understand this analogy of crucifying people before they get a chance to do anything. Who's been crucified? I actually think that, considering how awful we've been this year, Nelsen and Payne are being afforded a lot of leeway. But to be honest, I think that's more attributable to apathy then actual happiness with the job done so far. We've won 2 games and been played off the park several times this year and you call criticism of Nelsen and Payne crucifixion? I've seen you write that you've followed this team since 2011. I think you need to add 4 or 5 years of sustained incompetence to your overall picture of this team and then ask the question as to why people are critical. I can not, and will not write off an entire year as if it doesn't exist just because it's going to take time to right the ship. Following a team without expectations is pointless for me. Nobody gets that kind of a free pass.

[Ivy]

I'm not sure where you're getting the 2011 thing from, but that's not true...but regardless if I was following them from 2007 or 2013, you need to be realistic. DC made playoffs last year, this year they're last place. The bar is set unachievably high on the CURRENT management. They're doing the best they can with what they have - its our choice if we want to wait and see, or prematurely judge all their moves.
and no, I don't think Silva had a single good game this year. In fact, the only good pass I remember him making was when he set up Wiedeman at Amway.

[OgtheDim]

In the spirit of loopy conjecture.

We transfer O'Dea to Shakhtar Donetsk.

In return Donestk sends out on loan, http://www.transfermarkt.com/en/alan...er_104505.html to Internacional (5 days ago)

Who plays at Internacional again? Forlan you say? Well imagine that.

[69Chevy396]

I'm not sure where you're getting the 2011 thing from, but that's not true...but regardless if I was following them from 2007 or 2013, you need to be realistic. DC made playoffs last year, this year they're last place. The bar is set unachievably high on the CURRENT management. They're doing the best they can with what they have - its our choice if we want to wait and see, or prematurely judge all their moves.
and no, I don't think Silva had a single good game this year. In fact, the only good pass I remember him making was when he set up Wiedeman at Amway.

Silva was highly touted and many in this forum had very high expectations given his talent and skill level. His game went south because he was not used properly and this was Nelsen's doing. His confidence shot he faded just like others before him who have landed here (so manyexamples since 2007). When he gets his game back he may very well become an mls all star. The mediocre coaching, training and high turnover will always affect talented players more than the bums on the team- no cohesion, no creativity and hoof ball are features we have endured. I would rather have 11 silvas on my team and let them play together for an entire season than the crap we have now.

[Ivy]

In the spirit of loopy conjecture.

We transfer O'Dea to Shakhtar Donetsk.

In return Donestk sends out on loan, http://www.transfermarkt.com/en/alan...er_104505.html to Internacional (5 days ago)

Who plays at Internacional again? Forlan you say? Well imagine that.

Wow.
Good for Darren. Very rich team with lots of skill.
This Patrick player also plays AM...