Are the fans getting value for money watching TFC?

[Canary10]

In my mind, DARK GREY are the worst value - and that's exactly where my tickets are...

TFC should have very limited 'Premium Priced Seats' and that should be 123 with Club Access - a significant dip to sections 122 & 124 (West) and lower 107/108...

After that - every ticket in the stadium should be in the range that the majority of the population see them as 'affordable'...

With so many varying factors (some out of the clubs control) having tickets priced as they are will continue to drop the fan base...

The simple fact that the weather can kick your ass - paying $69 per seat is something people will simply say "no thanks" to season seat package ($50ish at SSH prices) - but at say $35 (SSH Price) per ticket per game, a large majority in this city can/will embrace as decent value.... This is even before we get into the product on the field...

123 can be priced to the heavens - as the corps can fill them out. 107-108 / 122 & 124 can be priced 'stupid' as the rich and 'want to be seen' will purchase and actually show up June-July-August when it isn't raining. The rest of the stadium needs to be quite differently priced from those - and they will be filled, most games, most weather conditions, if priced accordingly...

That strategy will keep the "buzz" about it being a 'full' (not 100%) stadium. Keep the concessions going. And keep the entertainment value for those who are there...

Plus, it would give the club leverage to raise ticket prices for 'special occasions' (PLAYOFFS should they ever happen). Right now, if the stadium remained the way it is, the club would have no leverage really to raise prices for playoffs - there's no guarantee they'd fill it, in winter...

The type of decisions / pricing are fine balance - you have to find that 'perfect zone' of cheap enough to attract, not too cheap to detract your value... The year-1 pricing was an excellent idea, but the next step is lowering the 'mid-level' tickets...

Keep the corp seats jacked - in fact they could even raise the SS seats a touch (you'll all kill me for saying that, but at $9-$10 a game it's less than a movie), and trim down the mid-level - to ensure their number-1 marketing point (that being atmosphere and game-day experience) remains there to market...

Yeah, totally agree with you there. And that's where mine are too. A lot of other people must agree also, because I essentially have my entire row to myself game in and game out. No one is buying those tickets.

[Prof]

Yeah take your family of 5 and go and watch a Raptor or Leaf game. You might find a parking spot. The value is there if you compare.

Hard to argue with south end pricing.

Tickets elsewhere are mostly 2x what they should be. I have a family of 5, it's $200 minimum for us to see a bad minor league soccer team. I can afford it, but I don't like feeling like a putz.

Guess what? We haven't been as a group in 3 years. Doubt we're going anytime soon.

No biggie. They'll run their business, I'll run my life. But just since someone's asking, the whole thing is moronic, they get their inflated attendance with empty seats by the thousands, and my kids play soccer but are growing up not caring about TFC.

[ensco]

Yeah take your family of 5 and go and watch a Raptor or Leaf game. You might find a parking spot. The value is there if you compare.

Seriously?

That's a comparison that has the whole professional sports business in trouble on game attendance.

They are benchmarking off a corporate dinner that costs $200-300. But I can take my family out for a nice meal, or go to the movies, for $75-100. Without a 50% chance that I'll freeze, or boil, or face a midge invasion.

[cmonyoureds]

Yeah take your family of 5 and go and watch a Raptor or Leaf game. You might find a parking spot. The value is there if you compare.

In terms of a Raps game, attendance the past few season's would argue there's no-one finding value there either.

[ag futbol]

That's a comparison that has the whole professional sports business in trouble on game attendance.

Couldn't agree more.

[ensco]

^If Leiweke's number one priority is next year's SSH sales (or put more precisely, TFC's relationship with the ticket-buying public), he needs to take this on ASAP. Most of the people here are grandfathered into $10 seats and don't care enough about this.

Years are going by, while thousands of people stay home. Those people would go if the seat prices were reasonable, by an objective standard (ie not the Leafs)

Leiweke spinning stories about how Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are imminent signings, is actually not a good sign.

[ag futbol]

^ Agreed.

It's way too early in the game to use ticket price increases as a way to increase profit for TFC. They should be thinking mega long term and trying to bring in as many people as possible to the stadium.

The untapped portion of the soccer market in this city is astronomical. If this was run right and priced properly, we could draw seattle like numbers to every game. Maybe that's just me extrapolating, but I honestly believe that's the potential, and it could be even bigger than that long run. We could talk about a new world class stadium instead of BMO 15-20 years out.

[Canary10]

There are a ton of people who are big football fans to whom TFC is a complete joke, not just for how bad we've been but how bad the football has been at times throughout as well. TFC needs to find a way to get that crowd interested and back to BMO. Ticket pricing is definitely part of the picture, but they also have to be sold on them playing decent football. That's a bit harder of a job.

[ManUtd4ever]

There are a ton of people who are big football fans to whom TFC is a complete joke, not just for how bad we've been but how bad the football has been at times throughout as well. TFC needs to find a way to get that crowd interested and back to BMO. Ticket pricing is definitely part of the picture, but they also have to be sold on them playing decent football. That's a bit harder of a job.

Agreed. The ticket pricing issue is entirely overblown (based on this year's pricing model) in comparison to the actual product on the pitch. If TFC continues on it's current trajectory this season, there will come a point later in the season wherein a disturbing number of fans will once again decide to forego attending games which they've already paid for in advance, and can't give away the tickets for free either.

[ensco]

There are a ton of people who are big football fans to whom TFC is a complete joke, not just for how bad we've been but how bad the football has been at times throughout as well. TFC needs to find a way to get that crowd interested and back to BMO. Ticket pricing is definitely part of the picture, but they also have to be sold on them playing decent football. That's a bit harder of a job.

It's too late for that. I believe that most casual fans won't just come back quickly if TFC start playing better. I think it will take years. I don't think the team can play well for long enough to ever get things back to where they were in, say, 2008, in terms of demand and the price level.

Beirne et al have believed that they would come back lickety-split, and it was true for the first 3-4 years, but it's wrong now. I don't think a better product gets them back quickly. But they're trapped - acknowledge that, and you may as well put a "fire me" sign on your office door.

The casual fan base has been burned badly. They have been abused and insulted (they bore the brunt of the ransom-packs, for instance), and they aren't invested in the team the way we here all are.

The supporters, who are part of the "brand" (ie the marketing) of the team, and pay only a fraction of the cost, are fine.

NYRB have this problem in spades btw. Prices are way too high. Reported attendance is a joke. And they have Henry and a good team!

[Canary10]

It's too late for that. I believe that most casual fans won't just come back quickly if TFC start playing better. I think it will take years. I don't think the team can play well for long enough to ever get things back to where they were in, say, 2008, in terms of demand and the price level.

Beirne et al have believed that they would come back lickety-split, and it was true for the first 3-4 years, but it's wrong now. I don't think a better product gets them back quickly. But they're trapped - acknowledge that, and you may as well put a "fire me" sign on your office door.

The casual fan base has been burned badly. They have been abused and insulted (they bore the brunt of the ransom-packs, for instance), and they aren't invested in the team the way we here all are.

The supporters, who are part of the "brand" (ie the marketing) of the team, and pay only a fraction of the cost, are fine.

NYRB have this problem in spades btw. Prices are way too high. Reported attendance is a joke. And they have Henry and a good team!

I'm talking about people who are football fans, have maybe gone to one game and never gone back because the football is shit. By shit I mean poor quality football, not where we are in the standings. They have to be convinced there is some quality in this league or they'll just watch EPL games on Saturdays. I can't give my tickets away to my own soccer team because everyone hates the quality. If football fans won't even go, who will?

[Fort York Redcoat]

I agree ensco. There are those that would recognize improvement that would return but they number in the hundreds, if that. Most will return only for a playoff run and then the following year...perhaps.


Canary I think your target football fans would take a lot longer to come back. Even if they did hear the team was playing better I'd reckon they'd let the team qualify for something and prove their quality because its the quality that has to sell them over and above and PAST the league which many feel wanting.

[ensco]

I'm talking about people who are football fans, have maybe gone to one game and never gone back because the football is shit. By shit I mean poor quality football, not where we are in the standings. They have to be convinced there is some quality in this league or they'll just watch EPL games on Saturdays. I can't give my tickets away to my own soccer team because everyone hates the quality. If football fans won't even go, who will?

This market will never come imho. These are just different markets. We are a minor league team. Big Champions League games draw 20x what TFC does on TV.

In LA, there was no bounce in attendance at USC or UCLA football games when the Raiders left.

[Canary10]

This market will never come imho. These are just different markets. We are a minor league team. Big Champions League games draw 20x what TFC does on TV.

In LA, there was no bounce in attendance at USC or UCLA football games when the Raiders left.

Yeah fair enough. I understand now what market you are talking about and agree with you on that.

[Abou Sky]

I'm talking about people who are football fans, have maybe gone to one game and never gone back because the football is shit. By shit I mean poor quality football, not where we are in the standings. They have to be convinced there is some quality in this league or they'll just watch EPL games on Saturdays. I can't give my tickets away to my own soccer team because everyone hates the quality. If football fans won't even go, who will?

Just met a guy yesterday at my son's soccer who is from Argentina and I mentioned Laba, he had never heard of him and it came out that he doesn't watch MLS at all because he had been to a couple of TFC games and they were garbage, I asked what he followed and he said 'everything but MLS' (which I am sure isn't true but you get the point.)

I don't know how many dads I know at soccer who said 'I had seasons for a few years but the soccer was so poor I stopped going'

When people like those that frequent the boards are jumping ship, that is the final nail in the coffin, they need the regular 'fans' back, not supporters, MLS has a few VERY good teams, SKC are a real pleasure to watch, RSL, NYRB, SJ etc are all quite enjoyable. Why do you think that SKC sells out their stadium every week? It isn't because they hoof the ball up to a big guy to put it in, they play very nice football AND win.

I see people post on facebook 'free TFC tickets' pretty regularly and they don't get taken up. People don't want to spend their time on TFC anymore.

I will continue to go and support and have fun but we need 'the average joe' to go and watch, and 'the average joe' knows more about football than people give him credit for.

[ag futbol]

This market will never come imho. These are just different markets. We are a minor league team. Big Champions League games draw 20x what TFC does on TV.

All comes back to product access IMO.

If they want TV dollars, they need a wide market of people to be interested. They want that wide market of people, they need to set ticket prices at a very affordable level to bring in as large of an audience as possible. Not only that, they need to commit to price stability. The way they've handled that side of things has been absolutely insane.

The path they are heading down right now, TFC will be *at best* a team that sells out and commands high ticket prices but never really appeals to anyone outside of it's niche of fans.

[ensco]

I don't really care much what they do anymore. It's their business.

I'm not a south end guy, and I'm not interested in paying what they're asking for OK seats.

I'm just noticing the connection between the unwillingness to admit defeat on the pricing front, and the pointless signing of players like Frings (or whoever the 2013 version of that will be) for a team in our circumstances.

[brad]

There are a ton of people who are big football fans to whom TFC is a complete joke, not just for how bad we've been but how bad the football has been at times throughout as well. TFC needs to find a way to get that crowd interested and back to BMO. Ticket pricing is definitely part of the picture, but they also have to be sold on them playing decent football. That's a bit harder of a job.

I actually think a lot of those folks would be able to stomach the bad record if the football was better. Lots of those folks have grown up watching losing teams and don't have the sense of entitlement a lot of TFC fans do.

On the football - I have family from the UK that grew up watching dreadful quality lower division stuff in the UK in the 60's and 70's, and they can't stomach how bad TFC are (and have been). Not exactly a high bar they are measuring against.

[brad]

I'm talking about people who are football fans, have maybe gone to one game and never gone back because the football is shit. By shit I mean poor quality football, not where we are in the standings. They have to be convinced there is some quality in this league or they'll just watch EPL games on Saturdays. I can't give my tickets away to my own soccer team because everyone hates the quality. If football fans won't even go, who will?

Man forget the EPL - I can't convince my uncle who watched Birmingahm City in the 60's to go back. He couldn't believe TFC were actually getting paid to play they were so bad. Basic fundamentals just not there.

[brad]

The other big problem is that the constant revolving door of players means there is no one for people to really build associations or attachments to. I know several people that have cited that as their reason for losing interest. In the first few years, we were bad but had some generally likeable players that stuck around for a least a little while.

[Prof]

I'm talking about people who are football fans, have maybe gone to one game and never gone back because the football is shit. By shit I mean poor quality football, not where we are in the standings. They have to be convinced there is some quality in this league or they'll just watch EPL games on Saturdays. I can't give my tickets away to my own soccer team because everyone hates the quality. If football fans won't even go, who will?

That is sooo sad. Are they really football fans then? Would they take Leaf, Raptor or Blue Jay tickets who other than the leafs this year have been crap longer.

[Abou Sky]

Through my life I must have turned down near 100 blue jays tix, probably a dozen Raptors tix and one pair of leafs tix.

My time is more important than my money, I don't have much of it and I am not going to waste it.

[Wombat]

I actually think a lot of those folks would be able to stomach the bad record if the football was better. Lots of those folks have grown up watching losing teams and don't have the sense of entitlement a lot of TFC fans do.

Most teams are losing teams, unless you grew up a Man Utd or Liverpool fan. That's what makes football fans so special... it takes fortitude, passion and loyalty to go to the game every week, risking rain, hard core UK football hooligans back in the 70's & 80's, and paying your hard earned money from working on a trawler, factory floor or down a coal mine.

I watched my home team Leicester City for 25 years, home & away with a dozen mates - travelling up to places like Blackburn on a wet Tuesday night to stand on crumbling terraces with 400-500 other hardy souls, and have a three hour drive home after a 3-0 defeat is what I mean by the fortitude / passion / loyalty of a true fan.

TFC could have developed a dynasty - the passion is there embodied by the RPB, and the fan-base of soccer fans in Toronto's four million population is there, but they failed to build on the potential of the first 2-3 years and many people like me, who really wanted to attach themselves to this new franchise drifted away, based on poor value for money and seeing journeymen 4th rate players who can't control a football or make a telling forward pass.


Football fans will persevere with a losing team if they see players they love & associate with, giving 100% on the pitch, and the club they support making them feel valued & appreciated - TFC can learn for the lower league British teams who have a rock-solid hardcore fan base.

I think that's why most neutrals were happy to see Wigan beat Man City for the FA Cup this year. It can't be easy being a Wigan fan stuck between Manchester & Liverpool, but these are the true fans!

[cmonyoureds]

It's too late for that. I believe that most casual fans won't just come back quickly if TFC start playing better. I think it will take years. I don't think the team can play well for long enough to ever get things back to where they were in, say, 2008, in terms of demand and the price level.

Beirne et al have believed that they would come back lickety-split, and it was true for the first 3-4 years, but it's wrong now. I don't think a better product gets them back quickly. But they're trapped - acknowledge that, and you may as well put a "fire me" sign on your office door.

The casual fan base has been burned badly. They have been abused and insulted (they bore the brunt of the ransom-packs, for instance), and they aren't invested in the team the way we here all are.

The supporters, who are part of the "brand" (ie the marketing) of the team, and pay only a fraction of the cost, are fine.

NYRB have this problem in spades btw. Prices are way too high. Reported attendance is a joke. And they have Henry and a good team!

One of the best posts I've seen on the state of the union at TFC. ^^^^^

I would also add that there is also a "non-casual" portion of the fan base that has been burned badly by the F/O and won't be coming back to BMO as full time ticket holders. I include myself and several others I know in this group. We buy the odd game now from ticket trader, after consulting the schedule and weather forecast. Oh, I still watch every game and follow the roster moves. I'll probably end up paying over the odds for tix should this team ever make playoffs or a cup final, but in the long run the owners are getting significantly less $ from me than the first 6 years.

[Masked Man]

The other big problem is that the constant revolving door of players means there is no one for people to really build associations or attachments to. I know several people that have cited that as their reason for losing interest. In the first few years, we were bad but had some generally likeable players that stuck around for a least a little while.

The turnover rate that TFC has been on is just insanity. It's very valid reason in my opinion. You don't really feel a connection with any of the players because by next season the roster will be different. TFC needs an era of competitiveness & all the good things that come with it. The competition, the mainstay players that embody the franchise & become folk heroes so that fans feel that connection.

With MLSE though who really knows if TFC will ever get there. They're like King Midas, except that instead of turning everything into gold, they turn it into something else.....