View Poll Results: World class player or Pedigree Coach

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  • Player

    27 72.97%
  • Coach

    10 27.03%
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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haddy View Post
    Hell.....I'd even just take the pot roast!

    Dave67, it's a great idea. I'll admit I took it too seriously.

    So to indulge you...I'd take a player. My favourite memories at BMO involve great players, not coaches. I saw Raul and Ronaldo score for Real, in what was Xabi Alonso's first-ever match with RM (his signing was announced a day before). I saw Benfica and David Luiz beat Celtic. I don't pay money to stare at the bench. There's nothing like being able to say "I saw that guy play." And to have a top player on TFC, that's something I'd love to brag about.
    You'd be happy with Raul and Ronaldo in a TFC jersey while the team is not winning any games? sure I'd like to see it for 1,2,3 maybe 4 games, but after that those guys become TFC junk just like the rest of them...
    but if you're going to play this imagination game, at least be somewhat realistic... no MLS team is going to fork out 10 million bucks a year for a player, I dont care which coast theyre on.
    Last edited by Ivy; 05-24-2013 at 11:07 PM.

  2. #32
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    I'd take the Coach first, as perhaps he could work magic with whatever he has. It's up to him to chose the world-class player he needs to fit into his playing style, hopefully one that the marketing guys can salivate over in order to get bums in the seats and raise the volume level at BMO field. Hopefully that will energize the players who will play better for a home crowd that seems to care again, leading to increased volume at future games and a positive feedback loop that ends with TFC winning the MLS/CCL cups and the collective volume level blowing out all our eardrums after singing the Dichio song.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    You'd be happy with Raul and Ronaldo in a TFC jersey while the team is not winning any games? sure I'd like to see it for 1,2,3 maybe 4 games, but after that those guys become TFC junk just like the rest of them...
    but if you're going to play this imagination game, at least be somewhat realistic... no MLS team is going to fork out 10 million bucks a year for a player, I dont care which coast theyre on.
    The players I mentioned are from fond memories. But yes, if I was to take a player and didn't care about the cash then I would go nuts with a purchase.

    For the record, my realistic answer is earlier in the thread.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave67 View Post
    I love the sentiment, but I can't see this club ever moving on to be a contender with academy players and academy coaches. I think the academy building and supplying a stock of 2 or 3 strong bench players, maybe a starter or two would be amazing, but I can't ever see the whole club being run off of the academy.
    barcelona do it; ajax do it; atletic bilbao do it; chivas guadalaraja do it; crewe do it; you can litter your team with academy players; lots of talented players in ontario and canada; an academy with proper scouts and coaches would help develop these players.

  5. #35
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    I get an am playmaker like guevara. get vitti back play ashtone morgan up the flanks with kooves.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    So we're stuck with rookie coaches, and as far as rookie coaches, Nelsen (despite his lack of badges... I have more badges than he does) is as good as any.

    So name me the coach and then I'll start considering if its a good move. Hypothetical excellent coaches theoretically lining up to take the job means nothing.
    I'm sorry but how can you say, with a straight face, that Nelsen is as good as any rookie coach?

    How can you even stomach the fact that we've chosen a rookie coach to fix this club?

    Debating hypotheticals means nothing...that much I can agree with you on. But to suggest that Nelsen is the right guy because:

    a) we have no choice but to hire people who have never coached before (which I don't believe is true) and

    b) that he's as good as rookie coaches come

    Now that means just as little as debating hypotheticals. You WANT him to be the right guy but nothing has shown that he is or will be. At least not yet. So why the optimism? Because Kevin Payne likes him?

    Kevin Payne also thinks we're still in the playoff hunt. LOL

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    I'm sorry but how can you say, with a straight face, that Nelsen is as good as any rookie coach?

    How can you even stomach the fact that we've chosen a rookie coach to fix this club?

    ..
    Lets just say there is disagreement with you among some of us based on current results.

    Is Nelsen perfect and the next Klopp?

    No.

    Is he growing into his role?

    Yes

    I look a the adjustments made into the second half yesterday and suggest he is getting better. And I see how the team CAME RIGHT BACK FROM A GOAL AGAINST IN EXTRA TIME and Hall missed a sitter - the attitude of players has changed. And I look at how players have bought into the coaching, and he is methodical and organzied. And I trust the word and actions of every single player who have nothing bad to say about him.

    And, some of us look at past MLS rookie coaches that have gone onto success and see strong parallels.

    As for what KP is saying, he can't say what he believes, which is if we get even got a sniff at a playoff run this season, we would have been extremely lucky. If he said we had no chance, the media would hound him and he would become the story.


    None of us are enjoying this. But some of us see movement forward. And in this year, which is our sub-expansion year, that is the best we can hope for. If you want to blame somebody for that, blame Anselmi for hiring short pants, who sabotaged Winter and didn't create the necessary infrastructure to compete.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    I'm sorry but how can you say, with a straight face, that Nelsen is as good as any rookie coach?

    How can you even stomach the fact that we've chosen a rookie coach to fix this club?

    Debating hypotheticals means nothing...that much I can agree with you on. But to suggest that Nelsen is the right guy because:

    a) we have no choice but to hire people who have never coached before (which I don't believe is true) and

    b) that he's as good as rookie coaches come

    Now that means just as little as debating hypotheticals. You WANT him to be the right guy but nothing has shown that he is or will be. At least not yet. So why the optimism? Because Kevin Payne likes him?

    Kevin Payne also thinks we're still in the playoff hunt. LOL
    Don't distort what I said. I didn't say that Nelsen has proved himself, far from it. So far he's showing the type of mistakes rookie coaches make, but that doesn't prove or disprove that he's the right guy, that he's competent or incompetent.

    The only thing I have to go by at this point (since one can't judge by short-term results) is Kevin Payne's track record... he has a record of finding good coaches, including one of the best in MLS (Bruce Arena). However no GM scores 100% and Payne may have made a bad choice. Time will tell.

    Current results can't possibly give you any basis to judge Nelsen because the team still needs a lot more rebuilding. Any one who judges at this point based on results is doing exactly the sort of short-term thinking that has made our team a joke for 6 years. We need to get away from the short-term and think at least 2-3 years.

    Can you tell me that you would have given Jason Kreis even one year when his team had been in last place in MLS for years since entering the league and he only won 6 games? Because he didn't look any better than Nelsen did in year 1. In fact he looked somewhat worse, making what seemed to be really bone-headed trades (but what turned out to be building a long-term winning culture).

    As far as hiring people who have never coached before, I didn't say that, what I said is that we could not get a coach with a winning MLS history. I still believe it, and no-one has given me an example of any MLS coach who would realistically trade their club for the mess here in Toronto.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-27-2013 at 08:13 AM.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Don't distort what I said. I didn't say that Nelsen has proved himself, far from it. So far he's showing the type of mistakes rookie coaches make, but that doesn't prove or disprove that he's the right guy, that he's competent or incompetent.

    The only thing I have to go by at this point (since one can't judge by short-term results) is Kevin Payne's track record... he has a record of finding good coaches, including one of the best in MLS (Bruce Arena). However no GM scores 100% and Payne may have made a bad choice. Time will tell.

    Current results can't possibly give you any basis to judge Nelsen because the team still needs a lot more rebuilding. Any one who judges at this point based on results is doing exactly the sort of short-term thinking that has made our team a joke for 6 years. We need to get away from the short-term and think at least 2-3 years.

    Can you tell me that you would have given Jason Kreis even one year when his team had been in last place in MLS for years since entering the league and he only won 6 games? Because he didn't look any better than Nelsen did in year 1. In fact he looked somewhat worse, making what seemed to be really bone-headed trades (but what turned out to be building a long-term winning culture).

    As far as hiring people who have never coached before, I didn't say that, what I said is that we could not get a coach with a winning MLS history. I still believe it, and no-one has given me an example of any MLS coach who would realistically trade their club for the mess here in Toronto.

    I didn't distort any of what you said. I just questioned why a rookie coach is a viable option for us. You explained it by saying that you trust in Payne's decision. That's totally fair.

    As for coach selection...you said we're stuck with rookie coaches. Maybe you meant rookie as in "never coached in MLS". I understood you to mean rookie as in "never coached before".

    I disagreed with that. Montreal is an example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    I didn't distort any of what you said. I just questioned why a rookie coach is a viable option for us. You explained it by saying that you trust in Payne's decision. That's totally fair.

    As for coach selection...you said we're stuck with rookie coaches. Maybe you meant rookie as in "never coached in MLS". I understood you to mean rookie as in "never coached before".

    I disagreed with that. Montreal is an example.
    Montreal may be the only example where it seems to be working out. It's a rare thing indeed to have a foreign coach working out well in MLS. The list of foreign coaches bombing out in MLS is huge. However, if you can lure Sir Alex out of retirement to take on the TFC rebuild project, I'd be willing to give him a chance (he once thought of immigrating to Canada, you know).
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    That's a three year old article that cites coaching failures from a long time ago.

    By your logic the only guys fit to coach in this league are guys who have coached in MLS before (or elsewhere in the US) or former players?

    That's a pretty shallow pool to draw from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    That's a three year old article that cites coaching failures from a long time ago.

    By your logic the only guys fit to coach in this league are guys who have coached in MLS before (or elsewhere in the US) or former players?

    That's a pretty shallow pool to draw from.
    No foreign coach has succeeded since that article, apart from Montreal (so far), so yeah it's 3 years old, but the record still holds.. So tell me, which coach do you think TFC should have hired that would be willing to come here and succeed?
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    No foreign coach has succeeded since that article, apart from Montreal (so far), so yeah it's 3 years old, but the record still holds.. So tell me, which coach do you think TFC should have hired that would be willing to come here and succeed?
    I have no idea but that doesn't mean that I have to be okay with them hiring a guy who not only has never been a coach...but was still a player when hired. Lol

    We literally hired a CB playing first team minutes and annointed him a coach.

    Lol.

    And we're not supposed to be critical of him?

    I'd be much more patient for a guy who has coached before and has a plan coming in to the club.

    Nelsen has neither and that's not his fault. He had no time to implement or even come up with a plan...he was busy playing.

    If he fails I won't blame him. I'll blame Payne.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    By your logic the only guys fit to coach in this league are guys who have coached in MLS before (or elsewhere in the US) or former players?

    That's a pretty shallow pool to draw from.
    It's a pretty shallow pool regardless. There's a wide world out there full of coaches but the ways to get them here are limited.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    I'd love to pretend that anything, even hypothetically, could improve this team with one move, either managerial or roster wise. I think unquestionably if I were to splurge on a player, it would be in the Midfield. Earnshaw is proof of the calibre of forward that can still score a lot of goals in MLS despite being well below average elsewhere in the world. I would love to see the impact even someone like Wesley Sneijder would have in MLS, and if I was shooting for the stars I'll take Ozil.

    I think the truth is what many guys have already said though, that without changing or establishing a culture and style TFC will never take the step forward it needs to. No matter what sport, even dynasties suck at first and new coaches/styles struggle. In the absence of establishing the style of team we want here, personnel moves will never make a difference, no matter how big or small they may be. I'd rather see this team suck for three consecutive seasons under the same Manager/GM but building smartly than watch a new manager make moves every new season.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    It's a pretty shallow pool regardless. There's a wide world out there full of coaches but the ways to get them here are limited.
    You just have to look at the Raptors trying to attract Masai Ujiri to be their GM to see the difficulties ML$E has in attracting top management to their teams. He's earning $500k for the Nuggets, he's been offered $2.5 million, and there's a good chance he won't take it. TFC, with a history of replacing coaches every year is an even more poisoned cup than the Raptors of the NBA.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-29-2013 at 07:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    I have no idea but that doesn't mean that I have to be okay with them hiring a guy who not only has never been a coach...but was still a player when hired. Lol
    So it seems like what is really important to you is experience. In that case I would assume that Jimmy Brennan would be your preferred coach over Nelsen because he has his papers and coaching experience.

    In my books, I would disagree. To me character is much more important in a coach than lower-level coaching experience. You only have to read what people who know him have said about Nelsen to see that they hold him in tremendous respect. Despite an awful starting record (which I blame mostly the quality of the players) I see no reason to replace Nelsen with a Jimmy B. equivalent from here or elsewhere.

    Now if you could replace him with a highly experienced winning coach, I'd be all for it, but TFC is in a much, much worse situation than the Raptors of the NBA. In 2009 you could have reasonably argued that Mo should have gotten someone with experience instead of someone he could control. At this point no-one experienced at a high level in their right mind with options anywhere else would take the job of coaching TFC, and that's why you can't come up with a name. Bruce Arena isn't coming here, and neither is Jose Mourinho. You could pay millions and they still wouldn't come.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-29-2013 at 07:28 AM.
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    Okay, took a little time out there. Now as to the idea of a coach I'll post here what I posted to TFC in their fan survey.

    I understand that Mr Payne is new at Toronto and that it will take time to right the ship. With that said this club at some point in time needs to go after coaches with coaching experience. I'm not asking you to shoot for the moon or anything, but I need a coach I can believe in. I don't have anything against Mr Nelsen, I hope he grows as a coach and leads this team to a brighter future. With that said I have no belief in him whatsoever. If you are going to go the path of hiring Ex players then a more logical choice is to go the way Brighton Hove Albion went when they hired Gus Poyet a few seasons ago. Poyet was a player at a high level but after playing he went on to be a coaching assistant with two clubs. Then he made his move into head coach. Of course Mr Poyet is not someone who would come to Toronto anymore, he'll likely go to the Premiership, but his kind of progress chart as a coach is much more likely to produce a successful coach than grabbing someone with absolutely no experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    So it seems like what is really important to you is experience. In that case I would assume that Jimmy Brennan would be your preferred coach over Nelsen because he has his papers and coaching experience.

    In my books, I would disagree. To me character is much more important in a coach than lower-level coaching experience. You only have to read what people who know him have said about Nelsen to see that they hold him in tremendous respect. Despite an awful starting record (which I blame mostly the quality of the players) I see no reason to replace Nelsen with a Jimmy B. equivalent from here or elsewhere.

    Now if you could replace him with a highly experienced winning coach, I'd be all for it, but TFC is in a much, much worse situation than the Raptors of the NBA. In 2009 you could have reasonably argued that Mo should have gotten someone with experience instead of someone he could control. At this point no-one experienced at a high level in their right mind with options anywhere else would take the job of coaching TFC, and that's why you can't come up with a name. Bruce Arena isn't coming here, and neither is Jose Mourinho. You could pay millions and they still wouldn't come.
    I have no interest in Brennan being coach. LOL

    And yes...to suit TFC's current needs, I'd say some level of coaching expertise was a must.

    I don't know why you want to give polar opposites on this....Mourinho or Brennan? And why is it character OR experience? Is it so hard to find both?

    Character alone does not make a coach.

    How did we attract Winter? How did Montreal get Marsch after his stint with the US National team as an assistant? How did they get Schalibaum?

    Klopas at Chicago at least coached Indoor. LOL

    I think Jay Heaps in NE and Jason Kreis at RSL are the only other coaches in the league that had zero coaching experience before they was appointed.

    Everybody mentions Kreis as the success story that shows that it can be done, in defense of Nelsen. Unfortunately that's a pretty slim mark to have to hit.

    It's simple...when you're a team that has been as bad TFC have been and you're looking for a coach..you should go out and hire a coach. Not hire a player and tell him he's a coach. (not to mention that we had to wait for him to stop playing so that he could coach us).

    It's a little bush league. I hope it works out and a part of me has faith that it can because Kevin Payne has a lot of experience. I just think the deck is stacked against us.

    Btw...you said I twisted your words...and then you turn around and put words in my mouth. LOL

    You assume that I want Brennan (or equivalent) to coach? You assume wrong. Very wrong.
    Last edited by v00d00daddy; 05-29-2013 at 01:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    if we are to dream, i would like a hot big titted girl who makes a mean pot roast please
    Mmmmm, between a great coach and great player, I would chose the one with the biggest tits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post

    You assume that I want Brennan (or equivalent) to coach? You assume wrong. Very wrong.
    OK, so I go back to my first question. Who would you suggest is a realistic target to come here to coach that meets your standards? I suggest that there is no one, and that Kevin Payne's hands are tied until TFC builds up a bit of a reputation of keeping coaches more than a year or two, or even one complete season LOL.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    "You play owner.."

    There's your problem. And, I'd argue, one of the biggest problems supporter discussions have these days.

    This isn't Football Manager or Hattrick or FIFA or any of the other simulation games that most of us have played. Running a REAL football team is far more complex and far less straightforward. You don't make one decision in isolation of everything else that is going on.

    Sure, we can speculate.

    But these "do this or this and it will fix things" discussions are simplistic and underestimate the reality of what it takes to pull a team around from where we were just 5 months ago.
    Amen!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    Mmmmm, between a great coach and great player, I would chose the one with the biggest tits.
    So you want this guy back at the club?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    OK, so I go back to my first question. Who would you suggest is a realistic target to come here to coach that meets your standards? I suggest that there is no one, and that Kevin Payne's hands are tied until TFC builds up a bit of a reputation of keeping coaches more than a year or two, or even one complete season LOL.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave67 View Post
    Okay, took a little time out there. Now as to the idea of a coach I'll post here what I posted to TFC in their fan survey.

    I understand that Mr Payne is new at Toronto and that it will take time to right the ship. With that said this club at some point in time needs to go after coaches with coaching experience. I'm not asking you to shoot for the moon or anything, but I need a coach I can believe in. I don't have anything against Mr Nelsen, I hope he grows as a coach and leads this team to a brighter future. With that said I have no belief in him whatsoever. If you are going to go the path of hiring Ex players then a more logical choice is to go the way Brighton Hove Albion went when they hired Gus Poyet a few seasons ago. Poyet was a player at a high level but after playing he went on to be a coaching assistant with two clubs. Then he made his move into head coach. Of course Mr Poyet is not someone who would come to Toronto anymore, he'll likely go to the Premiership, but his kind of progress chart as a coach is much more likely to produce a successful coach than grabbing someone with absolutely no experience.
    That's the kind of person I'd go after (pre his Brighton coaching - he's not in our league now). Very realistic type of coach to sign. Logical progress in his learning curve.

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    OK, so I go back to my first question. Who would you suggest is a realistic target to come here to coach that meets your standards? I suggest that there is no one, and that Kevin Payne's hands are tied until TFC builds up a bit of a reputation of keeping coaches more than a year or two, or even one complete season LOL.
    It's not my job to pick an appropriate realistic target.

    Why is asking for a coach that is actually a coach such a bad thing?

    I'm not calling for him to be fired. I'm just saying that, given the choice, I'd have preferred somebody with experience in coaching. And having faith in Kevin Payne is good but it's not enough right now. And I don't treat the first half of this season as a write off. If that were the case I wouldn't watch the games. And to those who have no expectations until next year....why bother watching or going to games?

    Apparently Nelsen doesn't have to do anything this year. He is absolved of all wrong doing because he doesn't have good enough players. That allows him to employ shitty tactics, poor player selection and he gets away with no results too.

    What a sweet gig to have for a "coach" who's never been a coach.

    Sorry, but it just doesn't fly with me. I'm happy to give him plenty of time because, frankly, any less than that is unfair to the man. But I won't sit by and take the shit we're being fed without criticism. That's downright irresponsible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    So you want this guy back at the club?
    What ever happened to him?

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post

    Why is asking for a coach that is actually a coach such a bad thing?
    Because all you'd get is a Jim Brennan equivalent. I'm not sure that's an improvement. You seem to underestimate how bad things really are. No body wants the job. It's even worse than the Raptors going after Ujiri.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave67 View Post
    That's the kind of person I'd go after (pre his Brighton coaching - he's not in our league now). Very realistic type of coach to sign. Logical progress in his learning curve.
    Like you say he's not coming now. He was like Jim Brennan or Danny Dichio (or Aron Winter) at the time he was available, in that he lacked head coaching experience. What TFC can realistically get is someone who helps the head coach or is the head coach of an academy team, not a "proven head coach" with a winning record that some here seem to think are available. You could roll out 20 Brinks trucks. They ain't coming.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-30-2013 at 08:07 AM.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    It's not my job to pick an appropriate realistic target.

    Why is asking for a coach that is actually a coach such a bad thing?

    I'm not calling for him to be fired. I'm just saying that, given the choice, I'd have preferred somebody with experience in coaching. And having faith in Kevin Payne is good but it's not enough right now. And I don't treat the first half of this season as a write off. If that were the case I wouldn't watch the games. And to those who have no expectations until next year....why bother watching or going to games?

    Apparently Nelsen doesn't have to do anything this year. He is absolved of all wrong doing because he doesn't have good enough players. That allows him to employ shitty tactics, poor player selection and he gets away with no results too.

    What a sweet gig to have for a "coach" who's never been a coach.

    Sorry, but it just doesn't fly with me. I'm happy to give him plenty of time because, frankly, any less than that is unfair to the man. But I won't sit by and take the shit we're being fed without criticism. That's downright irresponsible.
    You're making it your job by rehashing the debate. The other side is that there are no realistic options right now and the timing isn't right. Which you go on to say yourself in the post above. Criticism on present managing is not the same discussion as replacing him. Feel free to break it down.



    And I believe that your question about watching the games is a question concerning a difference of support.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

 

 

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