Time for results

[CoachGT]

I get the concept of time and respect, and readily admit that 10 games is nowhere near a reasonable time for a coach or team management to start over.

A few points that get to me and make me uncomfortable:

- while there is discussion about having to get rid of deadwood, even a new team will have to do that following an expansion draft. And there are pieces here worth keeping.
- graduating from the academy does not mean that you are ready for a starting spot on the team. Henry and Morgan are still not ready for full on starting assignments, although both have promise. Not without more playing time at a more appropriate level, between MLS and academy, maybe at a USL or NASL level.
- if you can compete, really compete, for 80 minutes, then an additional 15 minutes should not be out of reach for professionals. For that reason, I don't buy our current results. A competing team wins at least some of the time. I'm not sure if this team plays up to the level of the opponent or if the opponent plays down to them (I'm certainly leaning that opponents play down except for a few minutes)
- the "complete rebuild" isn't what I thought was bring sold here. Parts, yes, but at this point, very few players who started for us last year are seeing the pitch this year. Injuries are a part of the game. While there is some modest improvement, the league around us appears to have improved more than we have. I don't get that part of it, if we have changed so much of the team supposedly for the better.

I have lowered my expectations to just enjoying the company in the stands. But I'm really hoping to see some better quality in the pitch soon.

[Derko]

I woulld expect to see some major signings in the summer, but those new players will need time to gel, so again we are mid summer with a team that will really have no chemistry.
Just give us some success, and full effort.
Nelson and Payne need at least 2 years, to be fair.

As much as there were numerous player changes in year 1 and most of year 2, we could be pretty confident of coming away with 1 point or 3 points at home, BMO really was a Fortress, what has happened to that.
I think the marginal players that we had back then at least had a desire to fight and play, and scrap out results, they may not have been the pretty football players, playing the pretty football that we all wish for, but at least they fought for themselves,the results,the crest, and the supporters. There seem to be only a few that are playing like that.

[Yohan]

As much as there were numerous player changes in year 1 and most of year 2, we could be pretty confident of coming away with 1 point or 3 points at home, BMO really was a Fortress, what has happened to that.
I think the marginal players that we had back then at least had a desire to fight and play, and scrap out results, they may not have been the pretty football players, playing the pretty football that we all wish for, but at least they fought for themselves,the results,the crest, and the supporters. There seem to be only a few that are playing like that.

I think a lot of the 'Fortress' had to with the fact that it was turf...

[Haddy]

Again...I agree with being patient because its not fair to Nelsen to expect strong results so early in his campaign.

I just wonder...why now?

Why is the three year notion okay now?

I would personally prefer, as stated earlier, three transfer windows to see strong improvement. Not three years.

I used to be more aggressive about change when TFC hit the skids. So basically, every week

But that hasn't worked so far. Might as well try something different for a.....wait for it....change!

[trane]

I get the concept of time and respect, and readily admit that 10 games is nowhere near a reasonable time for a coach or team management to start over.

A few points that get to me and make me uncomfortable:

- while there is discussion about having to get rid of deadwood, even a new team will have to do that following an expansion draft. And there are pieces here worth keeping.
- graduating from the academy does not mean that you are ready for a starting spot on the team. Henry and Morgan are still not ready for full on starting assignments, although both have promise. Not without more playing time at a more appropriate level, between MLS and academy, maybe at a USL or NASL level.
- if you can compete, really compete, for 80 minutes, then an additional 15 minutes should not be out of reach for professionals. For that reason, I don't buy our current results. A competing team wins at least some of the time. I'm not sure if this team plays up to the level of the opponent or if the opponent plays down to them (I'm certainly leaning that opponents play down except for a few minutes)
- the "complete rebuild" isn't what I thought was bring sold here. Parts, yes, but at this point, very few players who started for us last year are seeing the pitch this year. Injuries are a part of the game. While there is some modest improvement, the league around us appears to have improved more than we have. I don't get that part of it, if we have changed so much of the team supposedly for the better.

I have lowered my expectations to just enjoying the company in the stands. But I'm really hoping to see some better quality in the pitch soon.

You have hit it on the nose, as to why I want to see some results soon, because if not, it is hard to really judge if we are as close to being competitive as the stats may indicate, as a you say a competitive team gets results sometimes.

[trane]

Derko, the return to the Fortress, hard to beat at home is a must for me. This is what I hope to see, to be be confident that this is the right coach.

[tfc2008]

After ten months forced at the zijlaan stands to come to stamp Danny Koevermans defense in action for Toronto FC. The attacker anticipates self clearly its rentree in the American competition.


Koevermans hit in July geblesseerd during the competition against New England Revolution. After a knee operation, he had to have months revalideren. Past Saturday he made its comeback with the promises of Toronto FC against Columbus Crew.


'It felt delightfully', wanted to begin Koevermans this week on the website of its club back on its rentree within the lines. 'I feel prevent me as a small child. I am can move and clench so fortunately again on to hit. It is fantastic.'


'Through the defeat was had to work one bad day, but for me personal one victory after ten months hard. I am fed up of it that the training of today again past is.'


Koevermans want to walk self calliper rule enough for a rentree in the head power of Toronto FC, but late the next competition yet. 'I do not want to defy the fate. I do not go with to Boston', according to the ex-international. In the stadium of New England Revolution, it went wrong after all a year ago. 'Only a week from now hope I that the coach home against Philadelphia Union an occupation on me can do.'

O Danny Koevermans Koevermans Koevermans Koevermans.

[Derko]

Derko, the return to the Fortress, hard to beat at home is a must for me. This is what I hope to see, to be be confident that this is the right coach.

You've got that one right, I am with you Trane

[T-boy]

I think a lot of the 'Fortress' had to with the fact that it was turf...

This, plus we (the fans) made it a very intimidating place to come and play for the opponents. We were loud, obnoxious, threatening and aggresive. All that has now gone. The south east corner does an ok job, but we are like a quiet kitten purring in comparison to the first 2 to 3 seasons where we sounded like a wild lion looking for blood.

[trane]

^ I agree. But allot of that support was wasted on crap performances. Hence the new atmosphere.

[Haddy]

This, plus we (the fans) made it a very intimidating place to come and play for the opponents. We were loud, obnoxious, threatening and aggresive. All that has now gone. The south east corner does an ok job, but we are like a quiet kitten purring in comparison to the first 2 to 3 seasons where we sounded like a wild lion looking for blood.

Sad to say this is very true. I hope BMO is a fortress again some time soon.

In the SW corner (118-119), we fed off the energy from RPB and U-Sec. You folks were an inspiration to the whole stadium. TRN had their drums going in 118 and we sang loud and proud non-stop for a solid few years. But each year the energy slowly dwindled. Now the drums might start at half-time, if they start at all. We act like a deflated balloon, tossed to the ground and walked all over. We lost our voices and spend the whole time grumpy.

Here's to better days on the horizon.

[BuSaPuNk]

Sad to say this is very true. I hope BMO is a fortress again some time soon.

In the SW corner (118-119), we fed off the energy from RPB and U-Sec. You folks were an inspiration to the whole stadium. TRN had their drums going in 118 and we sang loud and proud non-stop for a solid few years. But each year the energy slowly dwindled. Now the drums might start at half-time, if they start at all. We act like a deflated balloon, tossed to the ground and walked all over. We lost our voices and spend the whole time grumpy.

Here's to better days on the horizon.

I think we all feel the difference than years past. That's why me and Flush are bringing plans for a Mashup at the GO station or the Salt Lake game. As well were looking to get alot of two sticks banners and such going in the next few weeks. Details will be posted soon.

[FreekAce]

After ten months forced at the zijlaan stands to come to stamp Danny Koevermans defense in action for Toronto FC. The attacker anticipates self clearly its rentree in the American competition.


Koevermans hit in July geblesseerd during the competition against New England Revolution. After a knee operation, he had to have months revalideren. Past Saturday he made its comeback with the promises of Toronto FC against Columbus Crew.


'It felt delightfully', wanted to begin Koevermans this week on the website of its club back on its rentree within the lines. 'I feel prevent me as a small child. I am can move and clench so fortunately again on to hit. It is fantastic.'


'Through the defeat was had to work one bad day, but for me personal one victory after ten months hard. I am fed up of it that the training of today again past is.'



Koevermans want to walk self calliper rule enough for a rentree in the head power of Toronto FC, but late the next competition yet. 'I do not want to defy the fate. I do not go with to Boston', according to the ex-international. In the stadium of New England Revolution, it went wrong after all a year ago. 'Only a week from now hope I that the coach home against Philadelphia Union an occupation on me can do.'

O Danny Koevermans Koevermans Koevermans Koevermans.

as someone who's native language is Dutch, that translation gives me a headache.

[T-boy]

^ I agree. But allot of that support was wasted on crap performances. Hence the new atmosphere.

It goes in circles really - crap performances dwindle the crowd enthusiasm - then lack of noise from the crowd don't really pump up our team or scare the opponents. Now we have a limp crowd AND team.

I know we can't really control much of the on field activity, but we sure can put all our efforts into bringing back that crazy intimidating atmosphere to BMO once again.

[Gilberto9]

I remember U SECTOR used to be loud.. they're invisible now. The south east of the stadium is the only source of noise.

[Dreadlocks]

On the thread topic, I give Nelson AND Payne one FULL season after the summer transfer window to show the results. I keep hearing that we need better players. Well this will give them 4 windows.

At the end of the coming transfer window they should have their 'nucleus' in place and they'll have some time to gel. The winter and next summers window should be to add complimentary pieces to push them over the top.

So reopen this thread in August or Sept 2014 and we'll see where things are.

[Hitcho]

We've tried hiring and firing players and coaches at will in an effort to turn things around quickly. It hasn't worked. We still suck. I would rather keep this coach and suck than go through another change of coaching regime and playing squad and still suck.

If we give someone more than 2/3 of a season then he might actually settle into the role and do well. All good clubs are built on stability and embedding a system and ethos from the ground up in order for it to be effective. You can't do that in half a season or even a full season. It takes time. A gap between transfer windows is a useless amount of time to give someone to turn an entire club around. This club's single biggest problem has been its insistency on panicked regime changes. We got burned by Mo and have never recovered - even now his legacy is still poisoning us.

I would like to see the FO give someone a real chance at overhauling the club. I think Payne will do that and I hope he does. Who knows? It might work. Wouldn't it be nice to find out though instead of reaching for the reset button again?

[DoubleUp]

What kind of tactics would you play with these players? They aren't exactly Barcelona. Winter found that out fast enough, lol. What I've said all along is judge Nelsen once he has a team, not of quick fixes, but one that he and Payne feel at least somewhat comfortable with. Nelsen might be crap, he might be great, but you can't possibly tell at this point. The only thing you do hear is the tremendous respect that players have for him. That's something positive to put at least a little hope in.

I disagree!. With the talent in this team Atm I think with Winter we would be playing "Football" and Winning.


I like Nelsen('s character) as well, I like that he plays an uptempo style on defence and the boys always come flying out of the gates. But his actual tactical setup/system is lacking.

To take some blame off Nelsen,the whole coaching staff as no real coaching experience at any level.

If people say the supporters are playing football manager,! then guess what the coaching staff is essentially doing.


I will re-state that the team prep/fitness etc is top notch, but the tactical component is missing.


I am willing to continue to support the staff if they maximize their players potential and stop trying to force them to play a style of football that doesnt mesh with the players playing style.

I will say this!. The team can play more of possession game than we currently do atm, we have the talent and enough footy brains in our veterans to get it done.(dont be fooled by the "we dont have the players" argument,maybe before but not now!)


With the Window in August, there no excuse too not look like a better team and gets some points as well.

[billyfly]

Another week gone without results.

[trane]

No results, and it is hard to point at tangible improvement, as a squad. This is what I am worried about 5-10 or more performances like this, no results no improvement, we cannot not ask questions. This we should keep a poor coach for the sake of continuity makes no sense, it simply means we stay the same.

Again I am not of the Nelsen bandwagon yet. I am ready to even wait for the next transfer window, but I am not sure who do you bring in that would change things substantially. A player at each position, at the back, at the mid, at forward might, or a really top class CDM to help both at the back and organizing going forward, like Fringgs did for us, but that only lasted so long.

[jloome]

No results, and it is hard to point at tangible improvement, as a squad. This is what I am worried about 5-10 or more performances like this, no results no improvement, we cannot not ask questions. This we should keep a poor coach for the sake of continuity makes no sense, it simply means we stay the same.

Again I am not of the Nelsen bandwagon yet. I am ready to even wait for the next transfer window, but I am not sure who do you bring in that would change things substantially. A player at each position, at the back, at the mid, at forward might, or a really top class CDM to help both at the back and organizing going forward, like Fringgs did for us, but that only lasted so long.

To me, it wouldn't matter, if we kept playing a wing-based counterattack with no time of possession until we're behind. Our striker yesterday was 5-foot-fuck-all Robert Earnshaw yesterday, and yet until the second half, when Osorio came in and created, we were continually dumping the ball down the wings. To what end? A cross? To Earnshaw, a fox-in-the-box?

I like Nelsen's attitude, and Payne. But if we're like this at the end of the season, it will be because all of the responsibility for change is once again laid on the players, and no one reacts to the lack of tactical acumen until too late.

[Richard]

I don't think were going to see tangible improvement, it wont matter as half of these players are not returning next season. Next season essentially starts from zero again with no team chemistry, I don't think we will nearly get the players needed this summer window.

[trane]

To me, it wouldn't matter, if we kept playing a wing-based counterattack with no time of possession until we're behind. Our striker yesterday was 5-foot-fuck-all Robert Earnshaw yesterday, and yet until the second half, when Osorio came in and created, we were continually dumping the ball down the wings. To what end? A cross? To Earnshaw, a fox-in-the-box?

I like Nelsen's attitude, and Payne. But if we're like this at the end of the season, it will be because all of the responsibility for change is once again laid on the players, and no one reacts to the lack of tactical acumen until too late.

You know I agree with you. I am trying to be positive. But I agree 100%.

[brad]

This, plus we (the fans) made it a very intimidating place to come and play for the opponents. We were loud, obnoxious, threatening and aggresive. All that has now gone. The south east corner does an ok job, but we are like a quiet kitten purring in comparison to the first 2 to 3 seasons where we sounded like a wild lion looking for blood.

This - plus we were also the first team in the league to really do the above. I suspect a lot of the players were not used to playing in a hostile environment. It's much more common place now and likely less effective as a result.

[Hitcho]

This is what I am worried about 5-10 or more performances like this, no results no improvement, we cannot not ask questions. This we should keep a poor coach for the sake of continuity makes no sense, it simply means we stay the same.

How can you possibly judge a coach in just 5-10 games more? No coach in the world could come in and turn this club around in that period of time. This type of attitude has been a huge factor in our continued stay at the foot of the league. Anselmi kept firing coaches and looking for a quick fix without giving anyone a chance to bed in. Do you really want to continue that trend and fire another coach? This season is toast. So what if we don't improve radically in the next 5 games? If we fire Nelsen after that, then someone else comes in and we sell half the squad in the off-season, and then by this time next year the new coach is playing without a settled squad or set of tactics and then what - we just repeat the whole sorry saga all over again? Sound familiar?

You have to give somebody time to build at some point. Realistically a coach needs at least a season, and probably two, to start to turn things around. You have to build a squad, get them used to each other and your set up, get the academy kids playing the same way to blood in young players who are coming through, turn around old hands into what may be a new style of play, get your coaches on the same page as each other and the players. No way can that be achieved in half a season.

To me, it wouldn't matter, if we kept playing a wing-based counterattack with no time of possession until we're behind. Our striker yesterday was 5-foot-fuck-all Robert Earnshaw yesterday, and yet until the second half, when Osorio came in and created, we were continually dumping the ball down the wings. To what end? A cross? To Earnshaw, a fox-in-the-box?

I like Nelsen's attitude, and Payne. But if we're like this at the end of the season, it will be because all of the responsibility for change is once again laid on the players, and no one reacts to the lack of tactical acumen until too late.

This makes a lot more sense in terms of critiquing the coach, but I still think we have to give someone time to build a squad before we judge how they play. MLS is a funny creature - it's not like taking over a Premier League club and buying whoever you want. A lot of trades seem to get made with a view to moving people on for other players a window or two down the line, or just acquiring rights because they give some hidden value in terms of allcoation, DP or international spots, etc and in the meantime you have to sit with those players on your roster. I imagine it would take a minimum of three seasons to take over an MLS side and even get close to the kind of playing squad you really want, if you have to build from scratch which with TFC you clearly do.

Bottom line - it's pointless to judge a coach after half a season, and probably before the end of his second season. If after 2 straight years we've made zero progress, then sure call for the guy to be fired. But if we keep sacking coaches after less than a season in charge, then we will never see a meaningul turnaround in our fortunes and the cycle will just continue indefinitely. Six years of constant resets is enough for me. Let's try and be patient and see where this goes. We're going to suck anyway in the short term, so what difference does it make?

[Oldtimer]

Another week gone without results.

Panic~! Fire the coach!

Because that's worked so well over the last 6 years,

[lanarkist]

I feel as if far too many want to act and react in terms of personnel as if we were a top flight European club, where one poor season is an unacceptable outcome. If we were in fact a powerhouse, whether it be an MLS equivalent of City, Chelsea, Real, etc... I could understand the desire to ensure that every season is as competitive as those past. But when we have no set style that we expect our Managers to embrace and build upon, nor a model in place where we can evaluate whether the Manager in question fits our style and will be a success moving forward or needs to be replaced, we need to temper our willingness to sack anyone and everyone.

I will never advocate for a long leash or a blind eye to failure, but as a Man U fan I can't help but realize the value of patience (waiting out Sir Alex and not sacking him) as well as the importance of setting up a style of play so that the replacement fits that model and not simply the biggest or shiniest name available (Moyes vs Mourinho/Pep/Klopp/etc...). I know any comparison to ManU isn't fair or reasonable, but United are hardly the only organizations to embrace consistency.

[Torontotonto]

To all those who seem not to want a coaching change not matter what the rest of the season looks like, are you not tiered of losing more? Again we have not been a bad team because of the coaching changes, we have had so many coaching changes, ( for the most part) because none of the coaches have been able to turn this team around. Giving another coach two years or more just because will not necessarily make him into a great coach in year three. If Nelsen goes the entire year with no points, we regress both in attacking and defending WHY bring him back next year?

Again I am not calling for his firing, but lets just be vigilant, but not unresonable.

Agreed Trane
Don't know what the hell you do when you have 1 win in the past 26 MLS games since last July 18, 2012.
This is not about a coaching change, it's bigger than that.
SSH 7 years in paying money for this circus, never mind the 50% discount.
Right now it's not worth the price of admission.

[Yagbod]

This will be the 'new low' that we point to we won't win until at least July 20. That way there will be a terrible calling card for them again this year.

Last year it was the winless start, every year is a new number with no playoffs, etc...

[gate7]

Cochrane still around??? hes the curse.