Yes. He was attending the reserve game, specifically to watch Danny K. Danny only played the first half.Originally Posted by Rudy
Yes. He was attending the reserve game, specifically to watch Danny K. Danny only played the first half.
I've always believed that if you completely change the management team of any club - and begin what seems like a rebuild - the new staff should be given THREE full windows to pull their roster together. That's not to say that they can't, at the very least, show improvement over that time. But I really believe patience should be exercised - whether you can tolerate it or not.
I'm personally so sick and tired of high manager turnover. I'd like to believe that many of us cringe and complain when managers in England and/or other parts of Europe are scrapped too soon.
The winter window was more like a partial window for Payne/Nelsen. Heck, they were still making signings hours before the first match - just to fill temporary holes. That sums it up right there.
There's obviously a ton riding on this summer. If any improvement doesn't occur by September, sure, I'll buy a ticket for the complain train. But I won't get on board until after next season starts.
Until then, my ticket cost was cut in half this season and I renewed fully expecting my wife to see the standings and murder me for wasting our money...just so I still have my seat when it's worth it next year. **GULP**
Winter had an entire season before those 10 games....
the thing is, Nelsen should not have been hired in the first place. not to say i'm in favour of sacking him now, but, you know, you hire a guy with no experience, no certs, and this is what happens...no real direction.
There are still many holes to fill in the roster so I agree that it will take multiple windows to complete the makeover. One hope for short term results now is the re-insertion of DK into the lineup. He even made Mariner look like a decent coach for the 5 games he was healthy. If he can show that form again, bury some of the chances the current 'strikeforce' has left begging, he could give Nelsen and this team some much neede relief from the pressure of this dreadful start.
if it makes anyone feel better, there are 2 teams 'worse' than TFC right now (though tied with Chicago on pts)
http://www.mlssoccer.com/standings/supporters-shield
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
To all those who seem not to want a coaching change not matter what the rest of the season looks like, are you not tiered of losing more? Again we have not been a bad team because of the coaching changes, we have had so many coaching changes, ( for the most part) because none of the coaches have been able to turn this team around. Giving another coach two years or more just because will not necessarily make him into a great coach in year three. If Nelsen goes the entire year with no points, we regress both in attacking and defending WHY bring him back next year?
Again I am not calling for his firing, but lets just be vigilant, but not unresonable.
That Jason Kreis of RSL, no experience at all - even at a college level expecting him to coach a professional MLS team. What were they thinking???? And that Bruce Arena that Payne hired for DC. Sure he had experience at a University level program (combined with being assistant coach of the lacrosse team because it wasn't enough of a job to justify having a full-time coach), but he had never coached a pro or even semi-pro team before, even in the USL. What was Payne thinking??? Obviously he has no idea what he is doing.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Jason Kreis' RSL sucked for a year and a half, then barely squeaked into the playoffs. You should read the media reports from that period, you'd find it enlightening. Many people thought he had no idea what he was doing. Your timeline is blatantly unrealistic for Nelsen.
I expect nothing from this year. Zero. Nada. Next year I expect playoffs, or very close to it. After that I want a regularly competitive team.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
read the press of other rebuilding teams on their year 1 of rebuilding plan and most would think that the coach blows. i suppose this depends on how you define progress.
for me, the thing I look most for is whether the players still believe in their coach, despite the terrible results.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Must admit, it doesn't particularly make me feel much better, especially considering I could see either of those teams winning before us, and voila! We're in last place overall. But if another season of finishing in dead last is a necessary by-product of building a competitive squad for next season and beyond, I suppose I'm OK with it. Just more points than last year, please.
I agree we need to be vigilant, absolutely. The team right now though is probably as far away from a finished product as any we've fielded so far in TFC's history. And obviously so. It's really hard to gauge his coaching in that context. I do know that I have respect for him and like him, unlike many of our coaches/management. That goes a certain distance. Maybe what Yohan said is the best - if the players still want to play for him, then keep him there.
I'd actually disagree with that. Past teams may have been "finished", but the talent judges were lousy, so really, they weren't finished products -- at least, not competitive ones.
Look, we're -5 on goal differential. We're not being dominated by other teams, we are improving, we have a better roster already than any of our past editions.
I have faith. I think Nelsen and Payne are going in the right direction and what's more, assuming he's given this season and next to prove it, I think Nelsen can turn the team around.
I've been following this team from day one and most of the people on here with whom I discuss anything at length know my track record, so I will let it speak for itself. People may not be seeing it, but the improvement is there. It's just not enough, yet.
The giving time part and respect parts I definitely agree with.
By "finished" I mean we have 5 or 6 players who likely won't be around after the summer transfer window because of loans. That's different than past years.
we would not be having this discussion if half the individual defensive brainfart on late games costing goals did not happen.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
But it's not a relevant difference, really, because those teams were so bad. They were "full" rosters, but they were full of guys who couldn't compete in this league. So if anything, not having a "finished" roster now, and yet it still being generally stronger than the last three years, is a good thing.
I do NOT want to see us finish in last place, as that would just make me want to hunt down Mariner and throttle him for trading away a number one draft pick for a player who is no longer with the team. That's even worse than what Burke did with Kessel.
And yes Trane, I'm tired of all the losing too. But I don't see any way out of it for the rest of this season. We were destined to be this year's punching bag (along with ChivasUSA) no matter what coach was in place here, so I'd rather have Nelsen make the mistakes and get the experience he needs this year so he can be more effective next year.
We'd have somewhere between 14 and 22 points, as well, and be in the playoff hunt. I get what the critics are saying, in terms of "if its and buts were...." but the statistical reality is that we ARE in every game. We're not being dominated, with the exception of the Massacre in Montreal.
I even agree with Payne's somewhat rosy projection that the playoffs are still possible -- not likely, but possible. If Earnshaw and Koevermans stay healthy they could be the best partnership in the league (outside of donovan keane, when donovan's upfront); Brockie's an unknown but has been lighting it up in the A-league recently. Laba looked great in the last game, spring openings all over the place; timing with his teammates will come.
Obviously we have some holes still in that both our fullback positions are weak; but maybe they're not so weak that we can't compete.
I'm bitterly disappointed each week. But with the exception of Montreal and the second half last week, I haven't felt like the team has turned off and been out of it.
what a pathetic position that is to take. would you be saying that if they had hired one of us instead? no wonder this club can get away with what its done over the last 7 years with blind ass supporter like this. Nelsen should never have been hired. longball tactics without anybody to actually hold the ball up. thats shitty management, full stop.That Jason Kreis of RSL, no experience at all - even at a college level expecting him to coach a professional MLS team. What were they thinking???? And that Bruce Arena that Payne hired for DC. Sure he had experience at a University level program (combined with being assistant coach of the lacrosse team because it wasn't enough of a job to justify having a full-time coach), but he had never coached a pro or even semi-pro team before, even in the USL. What was Payne thinking??? Obviously he has no idea what he is doing.
the only reason i can still maange to care is that i don't put one penny into this team.
^ I agree that we have improved, and I agree that we are in most if not every game. This is why I am ok with were we are now. But I would like to see some of these into points.
As for those pointing to other MLS coaches and teams and media, I do not care. I analyze what I see from our team now. I am not discontent, I believe, and as I said I like and belief in Nelsen. I just think that to be truly able to say he is the guy, we need to see SOME results, some games were defense and offence is there for 90, or we just toughen it out and get points, MORE draws would be fine by me. Being a team that is hard to beat but is not quite there in terms of winning is fine by me, in terms of progress. But we are not quite there yet.
What kind of tactics would you play with these players? They aren't exactly Barcelona. Winter found that out fast enough, lol. What I've said all along is judge Nelsen once he has a team, not of quick fixes, but one that he and Payne feel at least somewhat comfortable with. Nelsen might be crap, he might be great, but you can't possibly tell at this point. The only thing you do hear is the tremendous respect that players have for him. That's something positive to put at least a little hope in.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Well by that definition no team is really finished. I think it's relevant to a discussion of how your head coach is doing if half your team is different halfway through the season (by design no less).
Last edited by Canary10; 05-23-2013 at 10:01 AM.
That is the proper attitude to have... Don't expect instant success. Have patience, but while doing so demand constant improvement of some sort.
This was my hope as well! Hopefully that's how it turns out, and it is worth the wait!
Very good point. If it was Danny K in the lineup last weekend instead of Braun, it would have been a VERY different game. No way Danny misses a sitter like that.
^ This.
^ And this.
Again, season ticket prices were brought back to Season 1. In my opinion, that basically means the past seasons never happened and we are back at ground zero. Any points are a fun, hopefully entertaining, bonus.
That also means Danny D. scored his first goal 11 days ago...and a couple hours later I went on a first date with my future wife. See - not everything is bad in an expansion year!
There is no doubt that there are successful coaches out there without their badges.That Jason Kreis of RSL, no experience at all - even at a college level expecting him to coach a professional MLS team. What were they thinking???? And that Bruce Arena that Payne hired for DC. Sure he had experience at a University level program (combined with being assistant coach of the lacrosse team because it wasn't enough of a job to justify having a full-time coach), but he had never coached a pro or even semi-pro team before, even in the USL. What was Payne thinking??? Obviously he has no idea what he is doing.
But to be frank here, education says something. It's no guarantee of quality, but all else equal I'd prefer a coach with an education to one with none. Especially when that coach has no prior experience behind the bench. It shows dedication to a career path and provides usable knowledge. Some people will throw away that knowledge and lack skills in other areas that end up making them the example of "poor managers with licenses". But that doesn't invalidate the point of hiring someone who's educated. You could argue that the managers who are 'good' would still be better with education.
I'm not writing this to dismiss Nelsen, I believe it was a reasonably justified hire given the success of some of the new faces in the league. But I'd still be more confident in him if he had the qualifications. Some of the things we've seen so far look to me like learning from mistakes on the job a coaching course would have helped you avoid in the first place.
It's an unfinished story and we'll find out if he adjusts long run. I find his performance to be a mixed bag so far, neither particularly good or bad.
Last edited by ag futbol; 05-23-2013 at 11:31 AM.
Again...I agree with being patient because its not fair to Nelsen to expect strong results so early in his campaign.
I just wonder...why now?
Why is the three year notion okay now?
Why should we be okay with giving a "zero experience" coach 3 years to compete?
I'm okay with doing it but I just wonder if people were willing to give Winter 3 years?
Winter and co. were tasked with implementing a complete overhaul of the philosophy of this club. Top to bottom. And he was run out of town. He was run out of town long after people had already called for his head (which happened in his first season).
People were talking shit about the "total football" propaganda in his first season.
Now we have to stomach long ball garbage because its a time for patience?
Fine...I'll be patient but I won't stand for people preaching patience when they were on the fire Winter bandwagon not so long ago.
I can't stomach the idea of preaching patience just because the guy at the helm plays a style that people are more accustomed to.
Because other than that, I don't see why some people who called for Winters head are now calling for patience from Nelson and Payne.
As for wanting results...I'll stop asking for results when Payne stops telling me that we haven't once been outplayed and we're still in the playoff hunt. Lol
^ all about checkpoints and incremental progress on the way to winning. It's not always a straight up trajectory but it should show certain things.
AW year two, massive losing streak, the team should have been beyond that point. If Nelsen puts one of those up next year, I'd fire him because it shows major cracks in the foundation. But for now? He can have some time to identify players and clean out crap.
If that doesn't eventually lead to small gains, then I doubt it would lead to big ones long run either. But until that time, I give him free-reign to figure it out.
No question, the main advantage of having your badges is that you've already learned how to handle some situations and that speeds up the learning curve. It's not like some fields, however, where your schooling is everything, it's just a help. Even if you do have your badges, you are going to make mistakes, it takes years to learn the finer parts of the game. Unfortunately with our track record there is no way a highly experienced coach is going to come here. JC and Winter had the most experience, and none of them had a first team coaching background (except JC as caretaker).
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I didn't advocate firing Winter either. I wanted him to stay out the season and see what the second half would bring with him at the helm. Personally, I think Mariner's early success was because the players were finally beginning to gel, then Mariner changed the line-up to 'his guys' and things quickly degraded after that.
This is pretty tired. Let's say out loud that what we're seeing isn't all hypocrisy, ok? There are people who had patience for EVERY coach some time or every time but the opposite is true as well. I don't like the inference that if you preach patience now, and because all his predecessors have been let go that it was WE who didn't give them time.
edit: This post is for everyone not the quoted poster.
Last edited by Fort York Redcoat; 05-23-2013 at 12:10 PM.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Yep, the horror show that was the start of the 12' season did Winter in and I think it would undo Nelsen if he bombs out next year.
The difference with this current situation is the FO structure. The president is an MLS football man who surveyed the available coaches and went with his first choice based on what he saw out there and his personal history. It can be argued that an NASL or College coach would have been better but Payne was hired to make the decision and Nelsen was his first choice. Given Payne's history with coaches and some recent examples quoted above such as RSL I am not too concerned with him learning on the job this season.
TFC has never been spoiled for choice with coaches and came off a historic season that required major roster surgery. Building correctly now and positioning for next year looks like the best and only option for the club and unfortunately offers worse short term pain than imagined. For me I will just watch with interest at the pieces assembled and how they work out and evolve. If there is not evidence of a mid table team after 14' summer window I think there will be some hard questions asked of the FO and at that point they will be on the clock.
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