Was Payne's Public Dressing Down of the Players a Good Idea?

[Canary10]

Kevin Payne basically called out all but maybe two or three players on the team yesterday. No one was named by name, but we can obviously infer some things. So my question is, was this a good idea to do so publicly? I know personally I would respond to that kind of thing with a fuck you, I'll show you and play my ass off to prove him wrong. Others might not. Jason DeVos tweeted afterward that calling out the players in public is bad for "team chemistry." I can see that point, and he knows more about what it takes to build a cohesive professional team than any of us. But was Payne justified? Curious to hear what everyone thinks.

[OgtheDim]

His use of "one or two" went too far. More like 4 or 5. Regardless, he shouldn't have said that bit at all - don't give a number. Just say "some of our guys".

But, what are they going to say in response? "He didn't respect us!" They havn't done the job. Its obvious. That to me was the bigger take away from what Payne said. People either can not, or can not yet, do the necessary job; and others are and will be brought in to do that job.

[Oldtimer]

Jason DeVos was a great player. He's never managed.

if you want to look at a great manager, ask yourself, would a Ferguson or a Capello do that in these circumstances? The answer is: absolutely they would! No question. Sometimes the "hairdryer treatment" is called for.

Coddling players' egos is sometimes the right thing to do, sometimes they need to be told to step up, or else!

Anyways, it's clear that the team problem is lack of quality, it's not like Payne is revealing some great secret.

[Phil]

For me, I look at it and think these guys have had the behind the scenes talk and their response obviously didn't impress so its next level - talk openly about it.

Most of us have figured out, publically complained about players and effort, for them to do post game interviews and say 'everything is fine' just pisses us off even more. I don't agree with the public aspect of this, but I do understand why it happens - credibility. It does blow me away a bit that Payne is realizing just now how bad some parts of this team really is.

[brad]

Jason DeVos was a great player. He's never managed.

if you want to look at a great manager, ask yourself, would a Ferguson or a Capello do that in these circumstances? The answer is: absolutely they would! No question. Sometimes the "hairdryer treatment" is called for.

Ferguson never did it in public. In an interview last week with Paul Scholes (by Gary Neville) he asked Paul what he admired most about Fergie (or what his best trait was - forget the wording) and he talked about how it was the fact that he would always stand by his players in public. He would dress them down behind closed doors when needed, but never, ever in public. Others have said the same about him.

I am going to go with the opinion that what he did is wrong - based on what the best of the best do, and also based on on how DeVos responded.

Public complaining seems more like passing the buck (hey - not my fault) than a motivational tactic.

[Canary10]

Jason DeVos was a great player. He's never managed.

if you want to look at a great manager, ask yourself, would a Ferguson or a Capello do that in these circumstances? The answer is: absolutely they would! No question. Sometimes the "hairdryer treatment" is called for.

Coddling players' egos is sometimes the right thing to do, sometimes they need to be told to step up, or else!

Anyways, it's clear that the team problem is lack of quality, it's not like Payne is revealing some great secret.

Just being a player in that situation gives him more knowledge of what happens to a team than most of would have. Of course he might just have an axe to grind too. Who knows.

I'm not sure what I think. But I tend to think that players that don't react positively to it (ie. step it up and fight for their place) aren't needed on this team anyway. I look at Montreal and how they fight for every point. Even down 2-0 to the Red Bulls they were still trying to claw back in time added. Didn't win, but they got one back. I don't see that with our team. I think we've settled to long with we played ok, we nearly won, there are positives to take from this game, etc....Maybe this was needed.

[Canary10]

Ferguson never did it in public. In an interview last week with Paul Scholes (by Gary Neville) he asked Paul what he admired most about Fergie (or what his best trait was - forget the wording) and he talked about how it was the fact that he would always stand by his players in public. He would dress them down behind closed doors when needed, but never, ever in public. Others have said the same about him.

I am going to go with the opinion that what he did is wrong - based on what the best of the best do, and also based on on how DeVos responded.

SAF has dressed down Rooney very publicly more than once. He stands by certain players, but not all players. I don't know if I agree with that assessment completely.

[Yohan]

General rule is that you praise in public, criticize in private. Singling out and embarrassing anyone in public rarely gets you the result you want. Because people do have their pride and self respect, and you destroying that in public will likely cause resentment and make that person think you don't care for that person. And his peers will lose respect for that person as well.

Rarely though, public criticism does get results, especially when private criticism failed to get the results you want, and that person(s) aren't performing to the standard you have set. Kevin Payne gave a collective tongue lashing, but he didn't name names. It was a collective public criticism which is slightly better than singling people out.

And if Nelsen and Payne play this right, they can do the 'good cop, bad cop' routine. But we'll see if this episode gets TFC players motivated or not. But after 2 months of shitting the bed, something drastic has to be done, because it seems like other methods aren't working. You don't perform to the standard, you get cut sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[spark]

Jason DeVos tweeted afterward that calling out the players in public is bad for "team chemistry." I can see that point, and he knows more about what it takes to build a cohesive professional team than any of us. But was Payne justified? Curious to hear what everyone thinks.

How so? He's never coached, never been in management, never been an executive at a professional club - never built a team or had to deal/be responsible with characters. It is interesting as well he lists coaches but nowhere on the list is Osiek.

Payne's been around the block. We can discuss his approach but let's not forget 6-10 months ago we were getting players called out by name. I don't really see what the big deal is in him voicing what everyone else and their dog already knows and has been discussing for the last 2-3 weeks.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Is it as bad as your star player coming out in the media and saying you are the worst team in the world?

[Canary10]

How so? He's never coached, never been in management, never been an executive at a professional club - never built a team or had to deal/be responsible with characters. It is interesting as well he lists coaches but nowhere on the list is Osiek.

Payne's been around the block. We can discuss his approach but let's not forget 6-10 months ago we were getting players called out by name. I don't really see what the big deal is in him voicing what everyone else and their dog already knows and has been discussing for the last 2-3 weeks.

Because he was a professional footballer. He has more insight into how those words affect the dressing room and players of a professional football team than any of us do. Unless there are some former EPLers lurking on the board. I'm not saying he's right, but none of us were in the situation of being a player at that level. He was.

[ag futbol]

I have a preference for doing it behind doors too, but I wouldn't completely rule out the public approach.

We gloss over it a bit, but a few of the guys on team (especially one or two of the ones on loan) are major disappointments

[ag futbol]

Because he was a professional footballer. He has more insight into how those words affect the dressing room and players of a professional football team than any of us do. Unless there are some former EPLers lurking on the board. I'm not saying he's right, but none of us were in the situation of being a player at that level. He was.

But this is little more than an appeal to authority. By this logic we can't question anybody or speculate on anything. Agreed, it is a fair counterpoint to the argument of "Jason DeVos has never..." but that doesn't mean his logic is flawless.

While he is one of the better ones, he sometimes comes off as naive with his opinions, especially when it comes to Canadians getting coaching opportunities, etc...

[Yohan]

Because he was a professional footballer. He has more insight into how those words affect the dressing room and players of a professional football team than any of us do. Unless there are some former EPLers lurking on the board. I'm not saying he's right, but none of us were in the situation of being a player at that level. He was.

deVos never coached, but as a pro footballer for many years (and captained teams), he knows how players would like to be treated. Yes, there is too much ego with modern footballers, but the saying 'treat people like you want to be treated' still is valid, regardless of what job you have.

[Canary10]

But this is little more than an appeal to authority. By this logic we can't question anybody or speculate on anything. Agreed, it is a fair counterpoint to the argument of "Jason DeVos has never..." but that doesn't mean his logic is flawless.

While he is one of the better ones, he sometimes comes off as naive with his opinions, especially when it comes to Canadians getting coaching opportunities, etc...

Fuck, I said he might be wrong. But the guy's actually been through this, none of us have, so that does give him some authority and insight. Maybe my experience of giving the girls on my Sport and Social Club team a real dressing down after a poor match is all the authority needed on this topic, but not sure it stacks up to DeVos'.

[spark]

Because he was a professional footballer. He has more insight into how those words affect the dressing room and players of a professional football team than any of us do. Unless there are some former EPLers lurking on the board. I'm not saying he's right, but none of us were in the situation of being a player at that level. He was.

Sorry Canary - I was responding to your point about "De Vos knowing what it takes to build a cohesive professional team" - which might not be what you were getting at, and what I was bolding. I was going directly at that quote and you are right, De Vos knows how that might effect a team/players, but I stand by the bigger picture that he doesn't know how to build a cohesive team because he's never had the shoe on the other foot - that was what I was going for and I might have misunderstood the bigger point.

[Oldtimer]

Just being a player in that situation gives him more knowledge of what happens to a team than most of would have. Of course he might just have an axe to grind too. Who knows.

DeVos has a huge axe to grind. He was angling to get the GM position before Payne was appointed. His campaign was pretty transparent, and played quite heavily on the Maple Syrup factor -- that Toronto's team should be managed by a Canadian. Never mind that he has zero experience.

If you've ever been passed over for a promotion... you tend to think that you could do better than the guy who eventually got it.

[jloome]

Ferguson never did it in public. In an interview last week with Paul Scholes (by Gary Neville) he asked Paul what he admired most about Fergie (or what his best trait was - forget the wording) and he talked about how it was the fact that he would always stand by his players in public. He would dress them down behind closed doors when needed, but never, ever in public. Others have said the same about him.

I am going to go with the opinion that what he did is wrong - based on what the best of the best do, and also based on on how DeVos responded.

Public complaining seems more like passing the buck (hey - not my fault) than a motivational tactic.

Fergie's done it in public before. He was very public with his statements about Beckham being more concerned with celebrity than football. He's flown off the handle lots of times over the years; so has Mourinho.

[Oldtimer]

SAF has dressed down Rooney very publicly more than once. He stands by certain players, but not all players. I don't know if I agree with that assessment completely.

... and Capello publicly dressed down Beckham while coaching RM. It worked.

It's not as unusual as one would think. A good manager uses all the weapons in his arsenal.

In this case Payne was being very general, however the players know who they are and will get the point.

[jloome]

deVos never coached, but as a pro footballer for many years (and captained teams), he knows how players would like to be treated. Yes, there is too much ego with modern footballers, but the saying 'treat people like you want to be treated' still is valid, regardless of what job you have.

That's absolutely not the case. You can work with people for years, that doesn't make you intrinsically in tune with what they want. Maybe his teammates voted him captain for years because he always favored player positions. Ascribing knowledge by association isn't logical. I was a reporter for years, and then a manager of reporters. Didn't help, because people with Asperger's (particularly undiagnosed, as mine was for years) probably shouldn't manage large groups of people. But I had the background. There are always other compounding factors to consider.

[Oldtimer]

That's absolutely not the case. You can work with people for years, that doesn't make you intrinsically in tune with what they want. Maybe his teammates voted him captain for years because he always favored player positions. Ascribing knowledge by association isn't logical. I was a reporter for years, and then a manager of reporters. Didn't help, because people with Asperger's (particularly undiagnosed, as mine was for years) probably shouldn't manage large groups of people. But I had the background. There are always other compounding factors to consider.

That's actually a great analogy. The skills in being a general manager (people management, player evaluation, administrative function) are quite different from those of being team captain (being an example, standing up for your fellow players).

Interestingly enough, although Payne did play semi-pro soccer when he was younger, his actual career was first as a journalist like yourself, then he moved on to administration. He cut his admin teeth in US Soccer, then was heavily involved in the set up of MLS, and then worked for AEG and supervised more than one team (in the early years of MLS, the investors often held multiple teams). You couldn't get more of an MLS insider and someone who is more qualified, or who has more pull with the league than him.

His moving to Toronto was totally engineered from within MLS to save TFC's franchise value from being destroyed by ML$E's incompetence (namely Anselmi, but that's another story).

[trane]

If you call guys out, blame your players game in game out, it is a problem, but once in a while, it is called for. I rely believe that with this system/style we are not far from being a competitive team. BUT we clearly lack that concentration/Drive/focus to put us over the top.

[Abou Sky]

If you call guys out, blame your players game in game out, it is a problem, but once in a while, it is called for. I rely believe that with this system/style we are not far from being a competitive team. BUT we clearly lack that concentration/Drive/focus to put us over the top.

+1

I have coached a lot of kids, in my experience if you tell a kid to work harder, they work harder.

Just make sure that the NEXT thing you say is positive and imo you are on track.

SJ wasn't the first or last game these boys will lose, they need to put their chest out, step up and perform.

[Richard]

The players need to get there shit together. All the new talks of specific player positions needed and loans should be a stronger signal that they are not performing.

[Canary10]

Sorry Canary - I was responding to your point about "De Vos knowing what it takes to build a cohesive professional team" - which might not be what you were getting at, and what I was bolding. I was going directly at that quote and you are right, De Vos knows how that might effect a team/players, but I stand by the bigger picture that he doesn't know how to build a cohesive team because he's never had the shoe on the other foot - that was what I was going for and I might have misunderstood the bigger point.

Yeah, if get it. And I certainly wasn't saying he's right (I argued with him over twitter) but I know enough that you don't dismiss the point of view of a guy who's gone through it from the player's side. Totally agree his big picture thinking can be found wanting.

At any rate, I lean to thinking this was needed. Watching Montreal's will to win compared to ours....well, I don't think we have players that want it as badly, I'll leave it at that.

[ensco]

If Ephraim or Bostock (or whomever) is spitting the bit, that's on Payne/Nelsen, not Ephraim or Bostock. There are significant risks to loans, what a surprise.

It's always a mistake to do this in public. You guys want the world to work differently for athletes, but it doesn't. It's not the way to get results.

You want to give someone the hairdryer, that's what the closed door in the office is for. Embarassing people in public to get results almost always backfires, and is almost always a sign of weakness on the part of the boss.

Anybody who has ever had a managerial role (I mean in life, not just sports) knows this. There may be rare exceptions, but they're rare.

[TOBOR !]

I'd say that publicly acknowledging that you have spoken to some of you players regarding their unacceptable play of late is nothing more than a managerial tactic. Do it and see who responds.

This is not a big deal.

That we're even discussing what Jason De Vos thinks of anything, or comparing Payne to Fergie is just jokes.

[Oldtimer]

I'd say that publicly acknowledging that you have spoken to some of you players regarding their unacceptable play of late is nothing more than a managerial tactic. Do it and see who responds.

This is not a big deal.

That we're even discussing what Jason De Vos thinks of anything, or comparing Payne to Fergie is just jokes.

No one's comparing Payne to Fergie. Read the original comment:

if you want to look at a great manager, ask yourself, would a Ferguson or a Capello do that in these circumstances?

You want to use a great manager as a role model of how to handle situations, just like great players are role models for young players. If a young player says "what would Messi do in a similar situation" it doesn't mean he's delusionally thinking he's as good as Messi.

[TFC07]

In this case, yes it's good Payne came out and let players know their time could be up if they don't start performing. It doesn't hurt once in a while to do something like this to fire up the players and coaching staff.

[flatpicker]

I have a preference for doing it behind doors too, but I wouldn't completely rule out the public approach.

Wait... what are you talking about?!!! Sicko!!!