Pre/In/Post - Game 11: Columbus at Toronto, Sat 18 May, 5pm

[DoubleUp]

wow, seriously mate, not trying to be funny, what are ur talking about.
Role, position...... he plays centre mid, the heartbeat of any team, everything goes through your centre mid. Waych Bayern, watch United, Schweinsteiger and and Carrick, everything is dictated by them, all play goes through them. Laba isn't that man, he breaks up play, but creates nothing, he is the guy who plays alongside a player as the aforementioned, as I said when we finally get that creative spark then maybe we will appreciate Laba more. But drop the role and position nonsense........

what does your Gareth Bale example prove?

What you posted is Generic wikipedia stuff when you look up midfielder.!


Laba position is Midfielder.....period.............his role while playing that position can change with tactics and the managers system.


Listen to what payne says about Laba,he is going to be groomed as ball playing midfielder, someone that has license to move forward and play dangerous passes, he is too weak atm to play an anchor midfielder in such a physical league maybe in south america(less physical, more technique) but not in MLS.

I dont know if you are aware but alot so-called DM from south america end up playing further up the pitch when they leave the continent......why you ask???

Because the leagues where they come from are less physical so when they go abroad to more physical leagues they are not as imposing as they were back in their country but still have the quality to make a difference on the pitch because of their superior technique.


De guzman was a DM in spain but when he came to the more physical MLS he was no where near the same player.


My bale analogy is simple.


Positions are not set in stone. Aslong as the player shows ability and other qualities he shouldnt be discouraged from playing a certain position thats how you stagnate talent(another discussion) but Iam not even talking about Laba's position I am talking about a role he could play in a possesion based system.


With that all being said!, Position and role are two different things.



winger A is being asked to get to the byline and whip in a cross.

Winger B is being asked to play inverted role,cut in and shoot on net.


same formation,Both wingers but their roles are different.

They have not changed positions they just have two different roles.

[burlington Red]

Burlington Red, Laba's role is primarily a defensive one. It would be fantastic if he had the vision to play the final ball and be a little more creative going forward, but remember he is young and these are traits which can and will be improved with more playing time. You mention Lampard, who is an incredibly well rounded midfielder, unfortunately Toronto FC can't really afford someone of that calibre - but they can develop someone into that player. The issue today was playing Hall with Laba. The two players are quite similar defensively, but lack creativity going forward. Coupled with a player who can play a defence splitting pass, and also having team mates on the wings and up the top of the pitch who actively seek space to allow for a pass will show how useful of a player Laba is.

I agree.

[Couchy81]

Making a play on the ball for the sake of touching the ball was our downfall. Passes to nowhere. wtf all you do is practice passing the ball all day. Make it count instead of just touching for the sake of touching. so frustrating to watch.

[ag futbol]

De guzman was a DM in spain but when he came to the more physical MLS he was no where near the same player.

Du Guzman dropped off by the time he came here, he was playing nowhere near the same level he did in la liga. TFC also had this crazy idea that they were going to make him an AM after watching one gold cup performance, but in spain he was literally known for shooting the ball over the net. Lot of suspicion that clubs over there were avoiding him because he was crocked physically, while TFC didn't pick up on it.

So I would not correlate that with the idea that a DM from that type of league is not physical enough to play in MLS as much as it is about a player who came here and for whatever reason was past it. Maybe laziness, maybe physically breaking down, but nowhere near his prior level of form.

Also have to consider things on an absolute level as opposed to a relative level. Relatively, MLS values physicality more than most leagues, but on an absolute level it is not as physical as people allude to because we're a so-so league as opposed to a world class one. All these exhibition games where MLS teams play foreign sides, do the MLS squads look physical? Not so much, because the foreign teams ARE physical, technical, and tactically superior. You put it all together it drains out the importance of any one individual element.

So sure Spain is more focused on skill than physicality, but it's much more physical than people otherwise assume when comparing it to MLS because you're talking about the difference between a top league in the world and something like MLS that is way further down the list. So you'd expect a much higher quality footballer to use all his attributes to adjust to a new league and not necessarily be snowballed by any individual element.

[v00d00daddy]

how come you criticise "hoofball" as you call it, and then mention lack of creativity in mid, but fail to mention Laba, who didn't play one creative pass all game.Is it because he is South American

Not that Laba was a creative dynamo out there but.......

There was a play late in the 2nd half where we had a corner (I think) and Columbus won the ball in their box and cleared it out to mid field. Now it was a race to the ball between Laba and a Columbus player and Laba got there just before the Crew player. He was under a lot of pressure and easily could have hoofed the ball in to the stand but he didn't. He chose to play a perfectly weighted ball to the right wing and the attack resumed.

I turned to my buddy and said "If he had kicked that ball into the upper deck on the west side most of the crowd would have clapped in approval for his hard work in getting back and preventing a break for the Crew. Instead, he worked hard to get back, prevented the break AND played a useful ball to maintain possession and get the attack going again. Of course...not one clap for what he did"

I'm telling you....people appreciate the wrong things. They don't even know what they're watching.

I said it out loud and the guy in front of me actually said "I would have cheered if he kicked it in to the crowd"

LOL

Laba is not the problem. There are a bunch of holes.....Lambe, Earnshaw and even Silva didn't play well.

For me the shine is officially off of Earnshaw. Can't wait for Koevermans to return.

[Ultra & Proud]

winger A is being asked to get to the byline and whip in a cross.

Winger B is being asked to play inverted role,cut in and shoot on net.


same formation,Both wingers but their roles are different.

They have not changed positions they just have two different roles.

And Laba's role right now is a holding mid just as it was in Argentina. Maybe that will change in time but his role is what it is now and if we're going to start asking players to play outside their comfort zones right now then expect worse than 1 goal losses.

[notthesun]

For me the shine is officially off of Earnshaw. Can't wait for Koevermans to return.

My issue with him isn't even really that he's dried up in front of goal. It's that he clearly has zero confidence in his teammates. Which may actually be warranted given he put the team on his back in the first four or five games, but you just can't play like that, it hurts you and the team in the long run. Time and again he chooses to do it himself instead of pick out a pass. The two that stuck out to me today were his bicycle attempt off a flick from a corner, where he really should've just put it back into the box, and especially that play when he collected a through ball with a bit too much pace on it in the corner to the left of the box. He sized up his man, cut to the outside, and then ignored 3 TFC players making unmarked back post runs to have a strike at goal where 3 Columbus players all attempted a block and one of them was successful.

Compare that to the play where he made the right choice and played a perfect cross to Silva, who knocked it down, and we'd have had a goal if we had a striker with an ounce of technical ability instead of Braun.

I'm sure he's frustrated as well, for both that he isn't scoring and he isn't getting many chances to score. But you have to suck it up and be a team player.

[ag futbol]

Not that Laba was a creative dynamo out there but.......

There was a play late in the 2nd half where we had a corner (I think) and Columbus won the ball in their box and cleared it out to mid field. Now it was a race to the ball between Laba and a Columbus player and Laba got there just before the Crew player. He was under a lot of pressure and easily could have hoofed the ball in to the stand but he didn't. He chose to play a perfectly weighted ball to the right wing and the attack resumed.

I turned to my buddy and said "If he had kicked that ball into the upper deck on the west side most of the crowd would have clapped in approval for his hard work in getting back and preventing a break for the Crew. Instead, he worked hard to get back, prevented the break AND played a useful ball to maintain possession and get the attack going again. Of course...not one clap for what he did"

I'm telling you....people appreciate the wrong things. They don't even know what they're watching.

I said it out loud and the guy in front of me actually said "I would have cheered if he kicked it in to the crowd"

LOL

Laba is not the problem. There are a bunch of holes.....Lambe, Earnshaw and even Silva didn't play well.

For me the shine is officially off of Earnshaw. Can't wait for Koevermans to return.

I remember this distinctly as well. People are having a go at his short passes, but his passing range is actually quite good when he has someone in the right space to get the ball to. He's also frequently willing to hit a penetrating ball straight to the forwards, which is pretty rare for a DM to be able to do (or even willing to try) in this league.

Our wide players have two major problems: 1) is that they are just not dangerous attack wise 2) is that they read the game poorly and don't transition from defending to attacking quickly enough, especially for a team that is supposedly trying to hit on the counter. Teams are defending incredibly narrowly against TFC, it's incredibly sad how little use we make of this space.

Which brings me back to Laba... He gets the ball, there is no winger filling the space where he's supposed to be so he plays it off short buying time for the team to expand. It's just about the only option available right now.

But to me the real story of this game was that the lineup and tactical choices were baffling. That should be the real point of contention here more than anything any individual player did.

[T-boy]

Some thoughts on this one:

I personally thought TFC were very bad, especially going forward. The defense was pretty solid, and some of the possession play was ok. But the problem was a total lack of any idea how to pass through the Crew to create chances. This comes down to a lack of off the ball movement from the midfield and forwards, and there appeared to be little idea how to create something.

The good - Earnshaw creating his own chances from nothing. But the chances he created were nothing more than half-chances really. Laba was solid and he looks like he relishes the physical nature of the league.

I thought most of the issues with TFC were down to management decisions. First, Braun is NOT a winger. Nelson's decision to play him out wide was terrible. OK, Braun missed a sitter, but the rest of his poor play was down to being a position that doesn't favour his strengths at all. Braun has been solid as a central partner to Earnshaw when they have played together, so why then move a big strong forward to a wing position, where you need guile and speed, not strength and force?! Poor selection by Nelson IMO. Braun looked like a guy who had no confidence in the position he was playing, and no idea how to make any off the ball wing movement. I honestly felt a bit sorry for the guy. Nelson may as well have put Frei out on the wing, neither player are natural in that position at all!

Other mind boggling things going on: Silva taking out swinging corners over and over and OVER again is NOT working! Not in the slightest! It will never work, hasn't worked for games on end, and it needs to stop! It's predictable, slow floating ball that doesn't create any speed on the ball for anybody to put a head on it. It isn't dangerous. O'Dea taking floated free-kicks into the penalty area. Why?! Darren is one of the strongest headers of the ball, and he's taking the kick? That's just stupid! And over and over again in this game - the defenders and full backs slowing the pass down to the wing. Several times Convey was actually making an off-the-ball run, but the passer put the ball behind him, or directly at him, meaning he had to stop his run, cut back, and then have no option but to pass backwards. Wingers need to run ONTO the ball. I play pickup soccer and I know how to play a ball in front of a winger to run onto - how the hell can't these professionals not know how to play a ball in front of a winger to run through?! This boggles my mind! The speed of an attack is just lost when you cut the ball back, or pass to a static person.

Lastly, when are we going to realise that Earnshaw isn't going to beat a guy who's 8 inches taller than him in the air?! Playing that over the top ball, or Bendik kicking high, is NEVER EVER going to work with Earnshaw!

In the end of the day - Nelson can make all the changes he wants to the defense, but defending is NOT the problem, its a total lack of any idea or originality of making an attack or creating any clear cut chances at goal. A home team shouldn't be creating 1, maybe 2 chances per game. We are never going to beat anybody if we can't create chances somehow.

Man of the match was Laba, poorest Braun, but equally poor was Nelson for playing people out of position and not having a clue how to make his team create anything other than half chances by individual players. Earnshaw is the only player we have that creates, otherwise TFC are clueless going forward. If I see another floated ball to Earnshaw again this season I'm going to seriously run onto the pitch and scream! Holy frustration batman!

[ag futbol]

^ great post. Especially about the corners.

There are a lot of areas where TFC is being too repetitive. The same long throw ins from Ritcher for example. We're not very crafty about these things when we should be.

[khso11]

Instead, he (Laba) worked hard to get back, prevented the break AND played a useful ball to maintain possession and get the attack going again. Of course...not one clap for what he did"

I'm telling you....people appreciate the wrong things. They don't even know what they're watching.

Exactly, this is what we need to do, that's what all the good teams does, converting it back into our hands (or feet). And infact I did clap, proudly too, cause i suspect that most of the people sitting around me arent even regular supporters, most likely they're free tickets and I want to let them know, that is good football. Laba's a good player, we need him on the pitch, the more creative the midfield gets, the better he will perform, attacking AND defending as well.

[khso11]

^ great post. Especially about the corners.

There are a lot of areas where TFC is being too repetitive. The same long throw ins from Ritcher for example. We're not very crafty about these things when we should be.

i remember i one play that laba was asking richter for a short throw in, but instead he ignor him and did the long throw, im not saying that we have to play short everytime, but we have to know when to do route one and when to play short!

[khso11]

The reserve match was pretty exciting (maybe more than the first team match lol), but I don't get why the announcer never tell people to stay for the reserve matches????

[T-boy]

^ great post. Especially about the corners.

There are a lot of areas where TFC is being too repetitive. The same long throw ins from Ritcher for example. We're not very crafty about these things when we should be.

Exactly. TFC are far too easy to "work out" be the opposition at the moment. There isn't a plan B at all when the first plan doesn't work. Instead of pulling out a plan b, we then do the same thing over and over that hasn't worked already during the game.

I will give Nelson as much time as any manager, but he HAS to work out the amateur errors quickly, like Silva taking the outswinging corner that doesn't work, and O'Dea taking the free kicks when he should be in the penalty area on the end of the actual kick. You are right, Richters long throws aren't working right now. They SHOULD work, but they aren't. Nelson needs to pull him aside and tell him to vary it up, take some long into the 6 yard box, take some short, take some quickly, and also take some long to the EDGE of the penalty area with the big CB's running onto the ball. You can't just do the same throw in every time, TFC doesn't have Crouch on the end to dominate the 6 yard box flick ons!

[DoubleUp]

And Laba's role right now is a holding mid just as it was in Argentina. Maybe that will change in time but his role is what it is now and if we're going to start asking players to play outside their comfort zones right now then expect worse than 1 goal losses.

He if you notice Laba played several dangerous pass when he was located in more offensive zones of the pitch, what I am asking is not going to fluster him it just allows him to not have so much defensive responsibility placed on him so early and to find his rhythm by working off of the more defensive Hall but still providing ball winning and and link up play on the right.


Convey-Hall-Laba should be the 3 in the center of the park for us.....period.

with Silva the most offensive of the four behind Earnshaw and Brockie.



We have to get the talent on the field at the same time to give ourselves any chance of winning some games.


Why would you sit an in-form Hall ??? When you can have Laba play off him but with more freedom to push forward because Hall is playing a holding role, but laba can still drop back and provide added cover to Hall or to help move the ball to the attack "which he can because he is far more developed in his knowledge of the game then people credit him for".

You dont play in argentinas Top flight and for the national setup and not know how to adapt your role, it doesnt happen!.

[Rudy]

Some thoughts on this one:

I personally thought TFC were very bad, especially going forward. The defense was pretty solid, and some of the possession play was ok. But the problem was a total lack of any idea how to pass through the Crew to create chances. This comes down to a lack of off the ball movement from the midfield and forwards, and there appeared to be little idea how to create something.

The good - Earnshaw creating his own chances from nothing. But the chances he created were nothing more than half-chances really. Laba was solid and he looks like he relishes the physical nature of the league.

I thought most of the issues with TFC were down to management decisions. First, Braun is NOT a winger. Nelson's decision to play him out wide was terrible. OK, Braun missed a sitter, but the rest of his poor play was down to being a position that doesn't favour his strengths at all. Braun has been solid as a central partner to Earnshaw when they have played together, so why then move a big strong forward to a wing position, where you need guile and speed, not strength and force?! Poor selection by Nelson IMO. Braun looked like a guy who had no confidence in the position he was playing, and no idea how to make any off the ball wing movement. I honestly felt a bit sorry for the guy. Nelson may as well have put Frei out on the wing, neither player are natural in that position at all!

Other mind boggling things going on: Silva taking out swinging corners over and over and OVER again is NOT working! Not in the slightest! It will never work, hasn't worked for games on end, and it needs to stop! It's predictable, slow floating ball that doesn't create any speed on the ball for anybody to put a head on it. It isn't dangerous. O'Dea taking floated free-kicks into the penalty area. Why?! Darren is one of the strongest headers of the ball, and he's taking the kick? That's just stupid! And over and over again in this game - the defenders and full backs slowing the pass down to the wing. Several times Convey was actually making an off-the-ball run, but the passer put the ball behind him, or directly at him, meaning he had to stop his run, cut back, and then have no option but to pass backwards. Wingers need to run ONTO the ball. I play pickup soccer and I know how to play a ball in front of a winger to run onto - how the hell can't these professionals not know how to play a ball in front of a winger to run through?! This boggles my mind! The speed of an attack is just lost when you cut the ball back, or pass to a static person.

Lastly, when are we going to realise that Earnshaw isn't going to beat a guy who's 8 inches taller than him in the air?! Playing that over the top ball, or Bendik kicking high, is NEVER EVER going to work with Earnshaw!

In the end of the day - Nelson can make all the changes he wants to the defense, but defending is NOT the problem, its a total lack of any idea or originality of making an attack or creating any clear cut chances at goal. A home team shouldn't be creating 1, maybe 2 chances per game. We are never going to beat anybody if we can't create chances somehow.

Man of the match was Laba, poorest Braun, but equally poor was Nelson for playing people out of position and not having a clue how to make his team create anything other than half chances by individual players. Earnshaw is the only player we have that creates, otherwise TFC are clueless going forward. If I see another floated ball to Earnshaw again this season I'm going to seriously run onto the pitch and scream! Holy frustration batman!

What an excellent analysis. i fully agree with every point made. well-written. Nelson and Payne should be reading every word of this post, and even hiring T-boy as technical advisor.

[T-boy]

Laba IS more of a natural defensive mid - BUT he can also pick out a pass very quickly with vision. He doesn't dwell on the ball, he just seems to be able to pick that pass out with one touch after making a tackle. He may not have lots of direct assists, but picking out a quick pass to an actual TFC player is something that we have been severely lacking until now.

[Yohan]

Laba IS more of a natural defensive mid - BUT he can also pick out a pass very quickly with vision. He doesn't dwell on the ball, he just seems to be able to pick that pass out with one touch after making a tackle. He may not have lots of direct assists, but picking out a quick pass to an actual TFC player is something that we have been severely lacking until now.

He's pretty much the only TFC player who plans his next move or pass before the ball gets to him, instead of reacting like most others, which allows him to make a quick pass to a teammate even he comes under pressure very fast.
Whether he's physical enough to play DM in MLS, I don't see him playing the traditional DM role in MLS. He's an interceptor instead of destroyer. Reminds me of Oriol Rosell in SKC who reads the game very well and makes a living intercepting opposition passes in the middle of the pitch and a quick dish to a winger or the AM, just like what Laba does for TFC right now. I thought Laba was tenacious enough that he wasn't dominated physically either.

As much as 2nd half was a bit of shambles, the combo of Laba and Osorio moved the ball a little better through the middle, although Osorio had a bad game IMO. It sucks for Hall that one of few TFC players in form has to sit, but Hall doesn't bring enough to table to warrant a starting role esp in a 2 CM midfield.

Few other thoughts
-Silva didn't have his best game, but even then his long range passing was good I thought. He's one of few players that sees the pitch as whole and can make a pass to pick out oa teammate.
-Convey was quietly decent (by low TFC winger standards) after coming on. Was pleased considering he didn't even have a full practice with his teammates.
-O'Dea was also good as LB, even though he's not super fast, but he can cross the ball. A bit of ridiculous thought having a max salary player playing LB, but oh well. Best choice right now.
-Caldwell was solid, but TFC is paying a terrible price for Henry's education. A lot of little mistakes that could have potentially be disasterous. Worse player on pitch last game. Looks like Nelsen is willing to pay the price to give Henry and Boss experience, but it's not doing much for TFC's form. (Henry pretty much admitted that he should have done better on Oduro goal)
-I'm pretty excited to see what Brockie can do. That missed header was made from a broken play, but Brockie saw O'Dea was about to cross and made a near perfect run to give himself a step ahead of Columbus defender. Potted a goal for the reserves too so, looks like he may be of some use.
-Both teams were terrible, but the difference was Higuain who was not on his best form, but he dictated the play for Columbus. That pass to Oduro for his goal was next level vision, something that very few playmakers in MLS has.

[ag futbol]

^ looking at the stats hall's normal output (which has been excellent) was basically shifted over to Laba in the middle.

There should be room for two quality ball winners in this squad. Definitely an area of the field where guys burn out fast and schedule fatigue sets in.

[trane]

Laba is a defensive mid, he seems decent positionaly and a solid ball winner, he also seem to be ok on the ball and as a passer, which may mean he may develop into a "pirlo"like presence from the midfielder, which would be a plus. Seems like a promising pick up.

[Brooker]

I've already re-watched the game twice.

[DoubleUp]

^ I'm trying to watch a third time, but I keep missing the replay on goal tv.

[Derko]

^ I'm trying to watch a third time, but I keep missing the replay on goal tv.

It was a clinical goal by Columbus, my trouble with it was Braun's play acting that directly contributed to the goal.

[Yohan]

It was a clinical goal by Columbus, my trouble with it was Braun's play acting that directly contributed to the goal.

50/50 call on whether Wahl fouled Braun or not. I'd lean towards a foul

[jloome]

50/50 call on whether Wahl fouled Braun or not. I'd lean towards a foul

Yeah, me too. His feet were pretty much dragged out from under him. Doesn't matter if Wahl got the ball or not as it was from behind, sliding. Should have been a yellow, technically.