It's all our fault?

[Abou Sky]

Ok, I am going to compare the love of a team to a marriage here.

If your partner is in a funk or has had a shit day you know what the worst thing to do is? Be funky/shitty to them. You give them a smile and a hug and offer to make dinner, even if you aren't up for it.

YOU are the one that is there for them, you back them publicly EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG. (You can talk privately after about your thoughts)

Imagine telling your partner that you aren't going to be nice to them until they are nice to you and think of how effective that is. IT IS NOT.

For the 90 minutes that the boys are on the pitch, we support. If we are losing, we support, if we are being outclassed to shit, we support.

We should be ashamed of ourselves, has Portland been ANY better of a team than us? Not at all, have their supporters complained? YES. But for 90 minutes, they support.

Ask any player if the support makes a difference and 100% of them will say YES.

We can not change the skill level of players, we can not change coaching but we CAN change the atmosphere.

I can't say for sure, but maybe the reason we are giving up late goals and losing confidence is because we are not supporting. People are singing 'let's go Blue Jays' at 90 minutes after we give up a goal instead of 'FIGHT BOYS FIGHT!!!'

If we really are the 12th man, then we sure as fuck should act like it, if any player gave up the way we do we would shit on them.

[Brooker]

[OgtheDim]

Critical mass issues. I still claim a roof would make a big difference.

[TOBOR !]

I think this comes up annually.

2007 : He's Right ! Let's do it !
2008 : YES ! Absolutely...
2009 : Shit. I forgot. But you're right. let's do it !
2010 : Yeah, yeah - we know...
2011 : We know, but when do we get something in return ?
2012 : look. some people have left. it's hard to keep this up.
2013 : Meh.

[C.Ronaldo]

we've been put down so much, im starting to feel its something we did.

typical abusive relationship

[Yohan]

we've been put down so much, im starting to feel its something we did.

typical abusive relationship

i still feel like we are being taken for granted by the FO and the team, though it has gotten a bit better the season.

[MartinUtd]

So it's our fault our team is full of USL? As much as the 12th man makes a difference, it's not going to turn Wiedeman
into Bruin, Morgan into Dunivant or Bekker into McCarthy. We're not asking for much here.

[denMAR]

I'm still going to head out to the matches, have a beer, a good time, and not expect much more than that in terms of results.

It's a lot harder to get people to come out to matches when the team isn't doing so well though. The midday matches don't help either.

[ag futbol]

So it's our fault our team is full of USL? As much as the 12th man makes a difference, it's not going to turn Wiedeman
into Bruin, Morgan into Dunivant or Bekker into McCarthy. We're not asking for much here.

Agreed. This whole topic is making the issue complex than it actually needs to be. Considering the crap it's gone through this team is still relatively well supported. Nagging people on the merits or support has never been effective. Either people being it or they don't.

Management puts product on the field, fans/supporters/whoever respond to the conditions (some in different ways than others).

[glaze]

I feel this issue is far more complex than saying lets change the atmosphere.
There are many reasons the atmosphere isn't what it used to be.
Winning helps. Our teams (Jays, Leafs and TFC) were outscored 20-2 on Wednesday.
A loser mentality has sunk in, fans have gotten their hopes up time and time again only to have them dashed.
MLSE rewards fan loyalty after a 9 year playoff drought for the leafs by jacking prices 75%.
Even the Jays sold out many of their fans this year, who used to by the season pass, by saying it was only 2 per person. If people had bought 4 for the past 5 years, they were now SOL.
I agree no one who calls themselves a supporter should be chanting lets go blue jays after a late goal at BMO. But I don't think you can simply wave a wand and turn our crowd into that of Seattle or Portland.

[Derko]

Cheering anything other than a TFC Chant offends me and have told people so in the stands around me, It is usually not regulars, at least what I have seen, I usally tell them to shut the fuck up. I will be at games chanting and supporting. I am not happy with the drubbing at Montreal. But will be watching on Saturday night.

[TFC Tifoso]

"As far as I know, in the history of soccer, supporters have never scored a goal for their team" - Gigi Buffon

I think it is more like a parent and a child instead of a marriage.....

If 7 year old Johnny still constantly shits his pants in the corner, are you going to cheer on little Johnny every time or are you going to tell him that is not the right way?........

I mean 1 or 2 year old Johnny I can understand, but by 7, he shouldn't be shitting his pants anymore......

[v00d00daddy]

Ok, I am going to compare the love of a team to a marriage here.

If your partner is in a funk or has had a shit day you know what the worst thing to do is? Be funky/shitty to them. You give them a smile and a hug and offer to make dinner, even if you aren't up for it.

YOU are the one that is there for them, you back them publicly EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG. (You can talk privately after about your thoughts)

Imagine telling your partner that you aren't going to be nice to them until they are nice to you and think of how effective that is. IT IS NOT.

For the 90 minutes that the boys are on the pitch, we support. If we are losing, we support, if we are being outclassed to shit, we support.

We should be ashamed of ourselves, has Portland been ANY better of a team than us? Not at all, have their supporters complained? YES. But for 90 minutes, they support.

Ask any player if the support makes a difference and 100% of them will say YES.

We can not change the skill level of players, we can not change coaching but we CAN change the atmosphere.

I can't say for sure, but maybe the reason we are giving up late goals and losing confidence is because we are not supporting. People are singing 'let's go Blue Jays' at 90 minutes after we give up a goal instead of 'FIGHT BOYS FIGHT!!!'

If we really are the 12th man, then we sure as fuck should act like it, if any player gave up the way we do we would shit on them.

I know you're talking about supporters but I totally disagree about this notion whether it has to do with the relationship between a football club and it's supporters or a marriage.

You don't support ANYTHING if its wrong. Not in public or private. If my wife (or my football club) can't take hearing the truth than that's her problem. People who can't handle being called out on the carpet when they're obviously wrong have self worth issues and inferiority complexes. I've called my wife out in public when she talks shit all the time. And she's done the same to me. Our relationship is open and honest enough to handle it and grow from it.

If this club and it's players can't stomach supporters voicing their displeasure and expect us to cheer them through it all....despite how horrid they've been for sooooo long...well I'm sorry. That's their problem. Man up, own your mistakes and admit them. And look for praise when you've earned it.

There is no such thing as unconditional love. Especially not with a 7 year old, inept from day one football club.

I find it startling that, even after 7 years of failure, some people still feel as if they owe this club something. It's like Stockholm syndrome. LOL

With each passing year of abuse some people fall deeper and deeper in love. LOL

[Initial B]

If 7 year old Johnny still constantly shits his pants in the corner, are you going to cheer on little Johnny every time or are you going to tell him that is not the right way?........

I mean 1 or 2 year old Johnny I can understand, but by 7, he shouldn't be shitting his pants anymore......

As I am dealing with this with one of my kids right now at age 6, I can tell you that yelling at them and getting angry at them does not work and only makes them afraid of you. Patience is required and keep on teaching the fundamentals, but also explain to them what the consequences will be if they don't stop doing it. Consistency of message is also important. But I guess that's more the coach's job than the supporters.

[trane]

Ok, I am going to compare the love of a team to a marriage here.

If your partner is in a funk or has had a shit day you know what the worst thing to do is? Be funky/shitty to them. You give them a smile and a hug and offer to make dinner, even if you aren't up for it.

YOU are the one that is there for them, you back them publicly EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG. (You can talk privately after about your thoughts)

Imagine telling your partner that you aren't going to be nice to them until they are nice to you and think of how effective that is. IT IS NOT.

For the 90 minutes that the boys are on the pitch, we support. If we are losing, we support, if we are being outclassed to shit, we support.

We should be ashamed of ourselves, has Portland been ANY better of a team than us? Not at all, have their supporters complained? YES. But for 90 minutes, they support.

Ask any player if the support makes a difference and 100% of them will say YES.

We can not change the skill level of players, we can not change coaching but we CAN change the atmosphere.

I can't say for sure, but maybe the reason we are giving up late goals and losing confidence is because we are not supporting. People are singing 'let's go Blue Jays' at 90 minutes after we give up a goal instead of 'FIGHT BOYS FIGHT!!!'

If we really are the 12th man, then we sure as fuck should act like it, if any player gave up the way we do we would shit on them.

This is has been the mainstream theory behind TFC support from day one, and only when some of the supporters have voiced their displeasure has the club reacted, and yet so many go back to this theory, that it is troubling.

[TOBOR !]

Are we being programmed to support regardless of result. That is to say, have we evolved to encourage our teams unconditionally ?

It begins with kids sports, where we teach them to have fun and they learn about sportsmanship. These are good things, to be certain, but they aren't being taught to compete. We don't talk about winners and losers because we don't want feelings hurt. Then at the end of it all we give out participation awards, not championships.

Add to this the mandate being handed to the parents of these kids. Cheer for both teams. Applaud effort rather instead of accomplishments.

I wonder if over time we aren't being conditioned to see ourselves as a support group for the teams we cheer for. We don't want the players to 'be afraid of losing'. We need to be there for them to share in their success and coddle them through their disappointments.

[trane]

^ Yes we are. I am not because I did not grow up here, and I am from another era. You work hard to try to win. You do not always win but you always try. You do not play to have fun, you play to win. ( nothing is more fun and rewarding then finally winning as a result of great work and effort)

[Yohan]

^ Yes we are. I am not because I did not grow up here, and I am from another era. You work hard to try to win. You do not always win but you always try. You do not play to have fun, you play to win. ( nothing is more fun and rewarding then finally winning as a result of great work and effort)

you must have issues with OSA's long term player development plan then...

[Abou Sky]

^ Yes we are. I am not because I did not grow up here, and I am from another era. You work hard to try to win. You do not always win but you always try. You do not play to have fun, you play to win. ( nothing is more fun and rewarding then finally winning as a result of great work and effort)

IDK, I can't wrap my head around a lot of that.

Just some examples: I am a terrible golfer, I don't even like the sport but I will play with friends to have some fun. I just tell people to mark me off for 180 (max) and go from there.

I started boxing a while ago, I am in the heavyweight division, when I box people in my weight class who are 6'4" (I am 5'8") I have a bitch of a time even landing a punch, but I will step in the ring and have fun doing it (yes, I have fun getting punched in the head)

Before destroying my knee I used to do 'double century' bike rides, that is 200km over 2 days, often through pretty hilly area. I was NEVER winning one of those, I did it because I could and as grueling as it was, it was rewarding.

I coach a bit, when my kids play they had better have fun, otherwise why bother? The day playing soccer isn't fun is the day you should quit. That said, not every part of every drill will be fun, but if the kids see that there is a reward for the work they put in then they will work even harder.

I have heard it called the 'pussification of society' but I feel terribly sorry for people who have to put their kids on a soccer pitch to win to somehow boost their own ego.

I also run a reasonably successful business and in my little corner of the world I am pretty successful, I can go just about anywhere in this business and people know me etc. Even in business I don't 'play to win' because there IS NO WINNING, I could retire if I really wanted to but I don't. You put in the effort, you get the rewards for it and you have fun along the way. If you aren't having fun, don't bother.

I guess that is kind of how I look at watching/supporting soccer. If you aren't having fun at the games, why bother?

[Abou Sky]

you must have issues with OSA's long term player development plan then...

lol, while not perfect, LTPD is fantastic.

[MartinUtd]

You seem to be forgetting that these athletes on the Toronto FC roster are paid professionals. I'm not paying money to watch them have a good time. If that was the case I'd just watch high school teams. None of what you just wrote is analogous with the situation of a failing profession sports team. It's a good creed for recreational fun, but that's about it.

[Abou Sky]

You seem to be forgetting that these athletes on the Toronto FC roster are paid professionals. I'm not paying money to watch them have a good time. If that was the case I'd just watch high school teams. None of what you just wrote is analogous with the situation of a failing profession sports team. It's a good creed for recreational fun, but that's about it.

Ok, I think people are taking what I said a bit wrong :

I don't think you should support unconditionally, but for 90 minutes you should. Call out coaches etc off the pitch is fine, but singing 'go leafs go' is shitty.

If YOU are not having fun at games, why are you going, (not that the players should only have fun)

[ginkster88]

So it's our fault our team is full of USL? As much as the 12th man makes a difference, it's not going to turn Wiedeman
into Bruin, Morgan into Dunivant or Bekker into McCarthy. We're not asking for much here.

Hurts even more when you remember that Dunivant was at one point a Red.

[trane]

you must have issues with OSA's long term player development plan then...

I do. I think teaching skills and to have fun in a tactical and team goal driven vacuum is bullshit.

[trane]

IDK, I can't wrap my head around a lot of that.

Just some examples: I am a terrible golfer, I don't even like the sport but I will play with friends to have some fun. I just tell people to mark me off for 180 (max) and go from there.

I started boxing a while ago, I am in the heavyweight division, when I box people in my weight class who are 6'4" (I am 5'8") I have a bitch of a time even landing a punch, but I will step in the ring and have fun doing it (yes, I have fun getting punched in the head)

Before destroying my knee I used to do 'double century' bike rides, that is 200km over 2 days, often through pretty hilly area. I was NEVER winning one of those, I did it because I could and as grueling as it was, it was rewarding.

I coach a bit, when my kids play they had better have fun, otherwise why bother? The day playing soccer isn't fun is the day you should quit. That said, not every part of every drill will be fun, but if the kids see that there is a reward for the work they put in then they will work even harder.

I have heard it called the 'pussification of society' but I feel terribly sorry for people who have to put their kids on a soccer pitch to win to somehow boost their own ego.

I also run a reasonably successful business and in my little corner of the world I am pretty successful, I can go just about anywhere in this business and people know me etc. Even in business I don't 'play to win' because there IS NO WINNING, I could retire if I really wanted to but I don't. You put in the effort, you get the rewards for it and you have fun along the way. If you aren't having fun, don't bother.

I guess that is kind of how I look at watching/supporting soccer. If you aren't having fun at the games, why bother?

You do not speak my language, and hence you do not understand anything that I am saying. Stepping onto the pitch trying to win, does not mean that you win, but you sure as hell try, if not why bother. I have boxed as well I like being hit, but sure as hell I try to win, I may lose but I give it all I have. It is feminization of men, taking away men's natural urge to compete. I need no ego boost. But I expect my children and my teams to show up and fight. To try to win, not to accept mediocrity, but strive for better and greater things. Games were invented for the sake of competition, you take away the competition, either with the other team or yourself, games are a waste of time.

[trane]

^ by the way I love boxing, because it is a sport with men with hearts, who no matter the odds will step in the ring and fight. Putting it all on the line. It is my favorite sport next to football.

[Abou Sky]

^ by the way I love boxing, because it is a sport with men with hearts, who no matter the odds will step in the ring and fight. Putting it all on the line. It is my favorite sport next to football.

See trane, that is the thing.

I agree with you 100% it is about heart and trying and grueling pain. 'fun' to me isn't puppy kisses, it is about challenges.

Do I prefer to win? Of course I do. But I will still try even if I know I am outclassed.

As for ltpd, the kids are crazy competitive, they want to win every game, what it takes out is standings.

The kids know who they are better than and who they are worse than. They know which win means a lot and which was a gimme.

Anyway, ltpd is based on German and Argentinian models and with the talent that comes out of there I think it is fair to base it on. Only time will tell though, if we make it into the 2030 world cup and make it past the group stages we will know that it was a success.

[FluSH]

Critical mass issues. I still claim a roof would make a big difference.

Can I get an AMEN!

[Alonso]

^^^ AMEN! And I'll up you a Hallelujah!

Hurts even more when you remember that Dunivant was at one point a Red.

And that we potentially could have had Will Bruin with our 9th pick in the 2011 draft but Cochrane gave the 9th pick for Nathan Sturgis instead.

[Cashcleaner]

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but being a non-critical cheeleader is exactly the sort of "client" that MLSE/TFC wants us to be. They want us to pay our money, sit down and cheer (but mind the colourful language!) for 90 mins, and heap only praise on the club and the completely logical and sensible leadership of the executive. This is the reality of sports today in our world. They want to serve us a product and have us eat it up with no questions asked. Suggesting our recent misfortune is in any significant way the fault of the supporters is ridiculous and plays right into the hands of the people who really are responsible for this team's current state of affairs.

Kevin Lowe, the President Hockey Operations of the Edmonton Oilers really highlighted the attitude that sports management execs have in this day and age. At a press conference discussing their sacking of coach Steve Tambellini a while back, Lowe very bluntly said that the Oilers have two types of fans: Those who go to the games (and spend the money) and those who don't. The ones who shell out the cash for season tickets or multi-packs are really the only ones who matter when it comes to who you need to satisfy. The ultimate insult is the fact that pretty much every taxpayer in the province - be they Oilers fans or not, will be on the hook in some way to build the brand new arena the team is clamouring for. Consider the directors, managers, and spokespersons for clubs who drop words like "loyalty", "pride" and "respect" when taking about the fans and their relationship with the club, yet are the ones who jump ship the moment a bigger paycheque is offered by another organization.

http://globalnews.ca/news/488944/kev...o-oilers-fans/

We have every right to demand the absolute best from our players, coaches, and even the executives in the boardroom - but not for the reasons they are thinking. We care about TFC because it's our team and it means something to us. It means we are part of something that's bigger then us as individuals. They care because it's a contractual obligation - it's part of their job. And because we care with no occupational strings attached, that entitles us to be critical when necessary and even adversarial if need be. Again, they don't feel the same about this team as we do - and the last person who deserves any share of the blame is the steadfast supporter who continues to pay some of the highest ticket prices in the league and wears the 130 dollar jersey every match day to watch his team continue to struggle in a league that is still looked down upon by the most domestic leagues in Europe and South America.